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ON THE EDGE OF EXTINCTION - A - THE TIGER (Panthera tigris)

Indonesia WaveRiders Offline
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( This post was last modified: 04-02-2016, 08:39 PM by WaveRiders )

(01-17-2016, 02:03 AM)peter Wrote: TIGERS IN NORTHERN INDIA AND NEPAL - PART XII


Nepal (introduction)


a - A.E. Smythies ('Big game shooting in Nepal', Calcutta, 1942)

If you are interested in the debate, you have to be prepared to travel. You could start in this forum. When you're done with the thread on methods and measurements, you have to visit the Carnivora forum and find the threads started by a poster called 'WaveRiders'. A bit confusing, but those participating couldn't agree on a common ground. 

Anyway. Some time before the debate started, there had been an exchange on Smythies. I don't remember the thread, but the point to remember is that WaveRiders thought the measurements in the book had to be taken with quite a bit of salt. The main reason is Smythies wasn't there when the tigers were measured. This means his book can't be considered as a prime source. This, of course, also means that WaveRiders doesn't take the Maharajah very serious. Apart from that, he wrote that Smythies didn't question the records at any point. His explanation for the somewhat servile attitude of Smythies is that he (Smythies) could have been grateful for the opportunity offered by the Maharajah. 

Although I agreed with the arguments he presented, I wasn't too sure about the proposal to dismiss the records. One reason was I had only read the book of Smythies once. In October and November 2015, I read it two more times. When I was done, I concluded that the measurements are reliable. This means they can be compared to other measurements taken 'over curves' in that period. The reasons were discussed before (see the posts mentioned above).

As to the attitude of Smythies. I think it's best to let him respond. Judging from the Preface (pp. v, vi and vii), Smythies expected to be questioned on both his motivation and the reliability of the measurements.    

....................................................

  
f2 - They didn't know how to measure tigers in Nepal

During an exchange on (the validity of) the measurements in the book of Smythies, WaveRiders, as you remember, proposed to take them with a bit of salt, if not dismiss them right away. One reason is Smythies hadn't been there when they were measured. Although he is right, this doesn't mean that the measurements were unreliable. What he is really saying, is that the measurements are unreliable because there was no supervision (of the British). This means they (the Nepalese), in his opinion, apparently didn't know how to measure a tiger.  

What to say? One is I do not agree with the implicit insult of the Nepalese, as that is what it really comes down to. As far as I know, there's, measurementwise, no reason to declare them incompetent just because they were Nepalese.

Two is Nepal and northern India were close neighbours. It is very likely there was quite a bit of interaction between those interested in tiger hunting in those days. The Maharajah of Nepal was experienced and I do not doubt he would have appreciated discussions with others about tigers. As most hunters were British interested in records in particular, chances are he would have adopted the method used to measure tigers in northern India. In order to prevent disqualifications like those discussed in this paragraph, chances are he, if anything, would have insisted on a correct use of the method adopted. More so than others, for the simple reason he wanted to be taken seriously.

The team responsable for measurements was responsible for all measurements taken in the years discussed in the book. This means that they were always taken in the same way by a team headed by someone who, according to Smythies, took his job very seriously. More than once, Smythies underlined that the measurements were reliable. What more can you do to be taken seriously? The answer is you can never do enough when you're guilty of impressive measurements. 

How did the measurements in Nepal compare to those taken in Cooch Behar? I don't know. I do know that the distance between northern India and Cooch Behar is considerable, whereas the distance between northern India and Nepal is limited. I also know that British hunters were allowed to hunt in Nepal at times and that there was contact between them and the Maharajah. In those days, distance was important. It definitely affected the frequency of social interaction. What I'm saying is that it's likely that the Maharajah of Nepal adopted the system used in northern India in order to facilitate discussions about the size of tigers. For this reason, it's also more than likely that the method adopted was applied in the same way as in northern India.

Hewett (pp. 68) wrote that the difference between both methods ('over curves' and 'between pegs') in northern India was 2-5 inches. When he compared records of large animals, however, he limited the difference to 2-3 inches (pp. 70) and when he discussed the measurements taken in Nepal in 1918 by Sir Harcourt Butler, he didn't say he didn't take them seriously.

We also know that the average difference in males in Cooch Behar was 5,45 inches (range 5 - 6,5) in averaged-sized animals. If I was forced to get to an opinion on Cooch Behar and Nepal, I would say the Nepal measurements most probably compare to those taken in northern India.  

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f3 - Prejudice

Many Africans think that every person (in Africa) is born with an animal lying next to him. I agree, but would include Europe. The interest in tigers was there right from the start. I don't mind you using the word preference, as long as you remember that my interest in lions is about as strong.  

As you can only focus on one, I opted for the one I saw lying close to me when I was very young. I read books about tigers from the day I was able to read and had the good luck to meet people who had lived in a former colony of the Dutch when I was young. They often talked about their experiences in Indonesia. At high school and university, I continued reading. After I graduated, I measured almost 400 skulls in private collections and museums. I was asked to determine skulls at regular intervals and also measured and weighed captive big cats. In between, I interviewed trainers and talked to unknown old boys who heard about me and encouraged me to continue the good work. I did. This to say that I was there right from the start and never really let go of it.

From day one, I made notes and recorded measurements. This means I only had to go over them when I, a few months ago, decided to do a few tables. In spite of the fact I was prepared, it took me the best part of two months. Although I really gave it my best shot, mistakes could not be avoided. The reason is humans and mistakes are just too close. I accepted it a long time ago. 

...............................................


Peter,


If you wanted to bait me I agree with you this time, and not the other one, it looks like an intentional bait. I am therefore accepting your possible bait. If it was not meant as such I feel in any case the need for me to reply and I am keen to do it directly in this forum in this circumstance, also because you have been generous enough not to ban me at the end of our harsh interforum contention of the recent past. Believe it or not I cannot be happy about that contention or any other incompatibility among people who share a high interest for wildlife, nature and conservation as we are a tiny percentage of the population of this world. But this was the case and we can all live with it without much of a problem I would guess.
So here I am after over one year, briefly as an intention, as not wanting to disturb your thread and the flow of the information you are posting. Should for me necessary, worth or interesting consider reply technically to posts made by you or any other members of this forum, I can assume you may prefer or you can understand I may prefer do it from another forum. I am also quite inclined to believe I am unanimously not considered a welcome contributor in this forum as a comment from senior member and moderator GrizzlyClaws clearly stating this appeared last year. This feeling from GrizzlyClaws and/or anybody else is absolutely legitimate and fully understandable and I am definitely not here to look for compassion. However from my side you can understand I may not want anymore to be a technical contributor of this forum for my own reasons.
The spark instigating my present post is my will to reply to the allegation you made in your post of 17th January 2016 on this thread that with my comments on the Maharajah of Nepal records reported by Smythies (1942) I made in this thread in a post I made in February 2015 I more then likely insulted Nepalese as people unable to measure tigers.
I can tell you I have been disturbed by your allegation. I hope and I am inclined to believe it was not really seriously meant. During our debate on the method of length measurements used for wild tigers in modern zoological studies I did not suggest you or other moderators or members of this forum were insulting Nepalese zoologist Dr K. M Tamang, (who had a very much pivotal role during the first 6 years of the Smithsonian Tiger Ecology Project in Chitawan National Park, Nepal) when you brutally dismissed on several occasions his statements made in his PhD Thesis (1982) that the length measurements of tigers in Chitawan NP “followed the curves along the back”. You definitely remember I have always instead weighed Tamang’s statement as much as Sunquist’s statements. But this a story of the past. Let’s move on.
I want now to disclose something about me so that you may be more prone to believe I am definitely not used to insult people in general as part of a Nation. During the course of my life I have so far visited some 50 different countries in all continents except Antarctica (so far), the vast majority of them more then once, several of them many times and some of them very many times. It is hard to count how many trips out of my country I made, but I believe them to be some 350 - 400+ trips lasting from 2 days to 4 months over the last 30+ years since my teenagerhood. In recent years I am regularly doing at least 15 trips abroad in a normal year visiting 10-12 countries and staying away from home for some 6 months on average. In the past I have also lived and had residence in two different countries other then mine. I have travelled by any kind of means on land and on sea, also sailing for at least 50000 nautical miles including a number of races crossing the Atlantic ocean.
Let’s say that I can state I have some knowledge of our world. What I learnt from all my travelling and experiences I made around the world? No doubt, hopefully, very many things, like for instance to try to stay away from troubles because troubles are inevitably easily met when travelling particularly in some countries. One of the most important attitudes coming from all my experiences for sure is, I believe, my disposition to respect people as much as possible in general unless clearly attacked and damaged. For sure I particularly feel a lot of solidarity for the honest and good people who struggle because I saw and met so many around the world, although I cannot definitely say that I spent time and made huge efforts to assist poor people and alleviate their pains either due to my profession or for much tangible private solidarity. Without a doubt there are very many admirable people much better then me in this respect.

Over the course of very many trips I have been, often repeatedly, in many regions of Central Southern Asia as far northwest as the Caspian Sea coast and Caucasus Mountains in Azerbaijan, in the Indian subcontinent as far north as the Himalayan foothills and the Terai, and in Indochina as far southeast as Thailand and the Malayan Peninsula. I have been in Nepal and protected jungles of Nepal as well as in several other jungles of Southern Asia many times for my personal studies and observations of wild predators. Through my extensive cumulative travelling of many thousands of kms on roads in Nepal from the Terai to the Himalaya I came to know many Nepalese and spent much prolonged time with them. I can tell you that I have a particular high bond with this people. No doubt, like with respect of Indians, our own personal habits are under several aspects very different (if you have been in the Indian subcontinent you can understand what I mean), but this is pretty much normal for people coming from different cultures.

The message I want to leave in this post is that I really love a lot the people of Nepal, I am very much grateful to them for all the excellent time I have always spent in Nepal and I have my highest solidarity for them. Insulting Nepalese people in the way you insinuated is one of the last things I believe it could come up in my mind.
 
                       WaveRiders
 
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Messages In This Thread
RE: ON THE EDGE OF EXTINCTION - A - TIGERS (Panthera tigris) - WaveRiders - 03-31-2016, 12:59 AM
Demythologizing T16 - tigerluver - 04-12-2020, 11:44 AM
Tiger Data Bank - Apollo - 07-28-2014, 09:54 PM
RE: Tiger Data Bank - Apollo - 07-28-2014, 10:02 PM
RE: Tiger Data Bank - Apollo - 07-29-2014, 12:56 AM
RE: Tiger Data Bank - peter - 07-29-2014, 07:05 AM
Tiger recycling bin - Roflcopters - 09-04-2014, 01:36 AM
RE: Tiger recycling bin - Pckts - 09-04-2014, 02:22 AM
RE: Tiger recycling bin - Roflcopters - 09-05-2014, 01:01 AM
RE: Tiger Data Bank - Apollo - 11-15-2014, 10:07 PM
RE: Tiger Data Bank - Apollo - 11-15-2014, 10:57 PM
RE: Tiger Data Bank - Apollo - 11-15-2014, 11:33 PM
RE: Tiger Data Bank - Apollo - 02-19-2015, 11:25 PM
RE: Tiger Data Bank - GuateGojira - 02-23-2015, 11:36 AM
Status of tigers in India - Shardul - 12-20-2015, 03:23 PM
RE: Tiger Directory - Diamir2 - 10-03-2016, 04:27 AM
RE: Tiger Directory - peter - 10-03-2016, 06:22 AM
Genetics of all tiger subspecies - parvez - 07-15-2017, 01:08 PM
RE: Tiger Predation - peter - 11-11-2017, 08:08 AM
RE: Man-eaters - Wolverine - 12-03-2017, 11:30 AM
RE: Man-eaters - peter - 12-04-2017, 09:44 AM
RE: Tigers of Central India - Wolverine - 04-13-2018, 01:17 AM
RE: Tigers of Central India - qstxyz - 04-13-2018, 08:34 PM
RE: Size comparisons - peter - 07-16-2019, 05:28 AM
RE: Amur Tigers - peter - 05-20-2021, 07:13 AM
RE: Amur Tigers - Nyers - 05-21-2021, 08:02 PM
RE: Amur Tigers - peter - 05-22-2021, 08:09 AM
RE: Amur Tigers - GuateGojira - 04-06-2022, 12:59 AM
RE: Amur Tigers - tigerluver - 04-06-2022, 01:08 AM
RE: Amur Tigers - tigerluver - 04-06-2022, 09:08 AM
RE: Amur Tigers - tigerluver - 04-06-2022, 11:30 PM
RE: Amur Tigers - peter - 04-08-2022, 07:27 AM



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