There is a world somewhere between reality and fiction. Although ignored by many, it is very real and so are those living in it. This forum is about the natural world. Here, wild animals will be heard and respected. The forum offers a glimpse into an unknown world as well as a room with a view on the present and the future. Anyone able to speak on behalf of those living in the emerald forest and the deep blue sea is invited to join.
--- Peter Broekhuijsen ---

  • 3 Vote(s) - 4.33 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
Freak Felids - A Discussion of History's Largest Felines

Italy AndresVida Offline
Animal Enthusiast
( This post was last modified: 01-20-2022, 06:18 AM by AndresVida )

(05-16-2021, 03:31 AM)Balam Wrote: You have a lot of preconceived notions and make a lot of claims but show no hard data to back your statements, no offense but this is the kind of superficial, immature, and deceitful talking points we see from the posters/trolls of Carnivora you previously mentioned which is tried to be avoided here.


I said at the end that's only my personal take, I have a personal take and a scientific take about animals and sometimes I like to share it to see other's opinion.
[quote pid='145007' dateline='1621116104']
However, when I have to explain scientifically a leopard or a cougar, I say " The weight range of male leopards is 37-96 kg and of male cougars is 53-103 kgs, larger males might have been recorded but that comes from unreliable hunting records and possible exaggerated assumptions made by hunters. So the limit for leopards and Cougars is 96 and 103 kg, could have been larger males but we need solid verification to confirm it"
[/quote]


[quote pid='145007' dateline='1621116104']
This is what I mean, I was not trying to be immature or superficial because Balam trust me I just joined to this thread but I have been reading on here and Carnivora since ages and I perfectly know to whom you are referring to about fanboying etc. I perfectly know. I was only trying to get your opinion from my personal (not scientific) considerations and after all you have my own opinion. "100 kg leopards may or not have occurred but we need solid evidence for it, unless it's useless to say it"
[/quote]


[quote pid='145007' dateline='1621116104']
I never said big male leopards are about the size of an average lioness. That's what they say on that site there, an average lioness is about 130-143 kg the largest leopards are 90-96 kg. How can they overlap? I say the only lioness a leopard can overlap in size is a juvenile lioness of 90 kg. Never an adult one. The only extant wild spotted cat that can rival the size of a lioness is the panthanal Jaguar. A tank of its own kind.
[/quote]


[quote pid='145007' dateline='1621116104']
Remember when I told you that leopards overlap the average size of the panthanal jaguar? That's because it was after I read this note on Wiki

Jaguars from the Llanos in Venezuela, and the Pantanal region of southern Brazil, Bolivia and Paraguay, are the largest of the species.[15] Pantanal jaguars have lengths of about 2.7 m (8.9 ft), and average weights of 94.8 kg (209 lb) for males and 77.7 kg (171 lb) for females.[16] Some individuals weighed more than 135 kg (298 lb).[17]   

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_American_jaguar

As I read 94.8 kg average for male jaguars I say, the largest confirmed leopards are 90-96 kg, that's why I said the Overlap. But that was before I asked you a whole chart of all weights of panthanal Jaguars to get an average, and in that case the average was around 107 kg if I remember correctly, so after that I never said anymore that the largest leopards overlap the average Panthanal males. 

Leopards can only overlap Mexican and maybe Amazonian males in terms of max sized leopard - average Jaguar
(05-16-2021, 03:31 AM)Balam Wrote: Furthermore, your asserstion that leopards from the Pleistocene were greater in size is completely unfounded, from the paper:


I never said I was referring to Ice Age leopard, that cat went extinct so we can't have proof that it grew that large and as you said it's similar to the persian one. 
I was referring to African leopards where we have got most of the max sized males (i mean from the persian ones the largest is 91 kg, the 95 kg male who was mistaken to be 115 kg is not even confirmed) 

While for African leopards we have males of 92kg ,95 kg ,96 kg, 97 kg Vin Diesel is unconfirmed. 
I was referring to them.

"the max seems around 95 kg".
Nature never has specific and exact numbers given, it's not like God created the leopard and said "the exact limit is 95 kg it can't be surpassed". That's just a very wrong take.
The largest verified leopard is 96.5 kg, just 3.5 kg far from 100 kg. And to note that this leopard is recorded in modern times whereas leopard numbers nowadays dramatically decreased and are always rarer, being endangered in Iran whereas the largest population roams in northern Iran. So If we are still able to find 90+ kg leopards these days that should be rare although their numbers already decreased a lot, what about when in historical times leopards had huge populations number all around the place in lauding northern Iran and weren't endangered? How many leopards have walked the earth? Over a billion? To compare now African leopard overall population is likely aorund 70+k individuals as estimated and we are still able to find 90+ kg specimens.
With all the leopard population that has EVER existed, you're telling me no leopard was able to be just 3.5 kg more than that 96 kg specimen? XD if the largest leopard EVER recorded was just 75 kg then yes I'd agree that 100 kg is a too far to be reachable, but almost 97 kg? Anyone denying the possibility of a 100 kg leopard is either uneducated or just lacks common sense. Cougars are verified to be 100 kg, with 102.9 kg (103 kg) being the largest verified, but don't you consider that cougar numbers are far much more than leopards? Of course, humans just arrived in the Americas and yet barbaric hunters still didn't hunt enough cougars to make them "endangered", their population is still pretty healthy in numbers and pretty much the same as old times, whereas leopard populations were probably healthy in numbers during Roman era, because then human population started to increase rapidly and a lot of wild territories were stolen to the leopard.
So to comparison cougar population is pretty healthy, especially in Patagonia and yet we have a leopard record just 6 kg lighter than the largest cougar, and leopards are FAR much less than cougars these days. Not to mention all the lacking data about aberdare leopards. We have just two hunting records from there, a 92.5 kg reliable male and an estimated 90-100 kg male which is indeed about that size so it's reliable and just the frequency of finding already two 90+ kg males by just two reported weights can easily tell us these leopard populations average something like 68-70+ kg. Kwa Zulu natal leopards are nowhere the size and bulk of aberdare or North Iranian leopards yet they average already 68 kg with mature males touching 72.5 kg on average, they also feed on cattle.
If Kwa Zulu natal leopards can touch such average which is almost 70 kg you're telling me that aberdare or Persian leopards can't average a little more? About 70-72 kg as large as Cougars? You already know that the Persian leopard overall average is 67 kg because you have to include the 95 kg male, as before the largest one was 91 kg. You have to note that the sample includes Persian leopards from all over their geographical range, including southern ones that are smaller than their northern counterparts. That sample also includes these males, my point is not saying all Persian leopards average 70+ kg. Just Northern males. As a whole I've got no problem saying they average 67 kg because they do, I'm just sticking to Northern males. That sample includes wolf sized 45-50 kg males, you're telling me that for Northern aspectatives a 45 kg leopard is going to be normal? Hell no, there was a 57 kg old male in good condition Form northern but as the vet said older males no matter the condition will be lighter than in their prime. So a 55-95 kg range for northern males seems likely rather than 45-95 kg as that sample ALSO included southern males. And guess what average a 55-95 kg range gives ? Around 72 kg! Even 50-95 kg gives already 70 kg. So yes, the largest leopard populations average 70+ kg just like the largest cougar populations, and already 3 males where over 90 kg, even Pckts said they frequently produce very large males compared to your standard leopard population, and he even guessestimated them to average mid to high 70s kg. To me, they are just as large as cougars, about 70-72 kg. Not 75-77 kg although that could be still possible then their numbers were high and their population wasn't still affected by human invasion of their habitats.
And do not start the "cherry picking" thing, I never said all leopards as a whole can average 70+ kg, my claim only refers to isolated populations, that is also similar to African lions overall averaging 192-197 kg with the isolated Ngorongoro population that couild average over 200+ kg or with Bengal tigers, that overall average 210-220 kg with some isolated populations maybe from Kaziranga, Pahna and Terai that could average 225+ kg possibly even 230 kg. Jaguars are also to mention here, if the smoke was fair your Pantanal males wouldn't average just 108 kg but easily a bit over 110 kg, because you all included subadult or unhealthy males which is a very wrong thing when you're trying to get an average that should include fully grown adult healthy specimens only, so if you believe I'm overestimating leopards well then you gotta see I believe 107 kg average for Pantanal jaguars is an underestimate.

Not to mention that from both Iran and Aberdares there are a lot of unweighted giant males such as these that visually are asily over 80-90 kg

What about these two north iranian monsters below? Look how muscular and massive they are, there is also literally a wild boar carcass in comparison next to the first male which really tells us this can be a well over 90 kg male and possibly 100 kg.
They are overall on the same exact tier as the Patagonia cougars which max around 90-100 kg possibly more.

https://youtu.be/RjtGMa-hy_k

https://www.instagram.com/p/CR6AQmwgvmJ/




Of course I'm not saying all of this as a clear fact, it's just an argument of what is possible and what is not. This is just my opinion, for a clear estimate we need solid verification. 
If I looked a bit angry or nervous it's just because anyone doubting the existence of 70+ average leopard populations and max 100+ kg leopards when looking at overall commonsense is rather uneducated or just foolish.

I am a leopard fan but I get my facts straight. I don't overrated leopards and at the same time underrated other cats.
Because you know what I say? Cougars are larger than leopards. Jaguars are tanks compared to them, lionesses dwarf them. In my opinion even a 60-70 kg Mexican jaguar would be able to defeat a 80-90+ kg leopard. 

I am not like you know who. Never trying to be superficial. But to me sometimes you just underrated
leopards a little bit. I can see you estimating Scar Male of about 100 kg in Patagonia, what about the giant leopards i sent you? They aren't smaller by any means, using aswell that wildboar kill in comparison to that giant male with an enormous body.
1 user Likes AndresVida's post
Reply




Messages In This Thread
RE: Freak Felids - A Discussion of History's Largest Felines - AndresVida - 05-16-2021, 01:46 PM
Sabertoothed Cats - brotherbear - 06-11-2016, 11:59 AM
RE: Sabertoothed Cats - peter - 06-11-2016, 04:28 PM
Ancient Jaguar - brotherbear - 01-04-2018, 12:45 AM



Users browsing this thread:
2 Guest(s)

About Us
Go Social     Subscribe  

Welcome to WILDFACT forum, a website that focuses on sharing the joy that wildlife has on offer. We welcome all wildlife lovers to join us in sharing that joy. As a member you can share your research, knowledge and experience on animals with the community.
wildfact.com is intended to serve as an online resource for wildlife lovers of all skill levels from beginners to professionals and from all fields that belong to wildlife anyhow. Our focus area is wild animals from all over world. Content generated here will help showcase the work of wildlife experts and lovers to the world. We believe by the help of your informative article and content we will succeed to educate the world, how these beautiful animals are important to survival of all man kind.
Many thanks for visiting wildfact.com. We hope you will keep visiting wildfact regularly and will refer other members who have passion for wildlife.

Forum software by © MyBB