John Varty & Tiger Canyon

[Sanju]

© Clint Ralph @clintralph_sa

Two of Tigress Ussuri's cubs. Bengal Tigers, the ultimate long-tooth. These Tigers are part of the John Varty's conservation project where wild free-roaming Tigers roam Tiger Canyon hunting their own prey. The ultimate goal is to save the Tiger from extinction by having a gene pool in Africa as insurance.

http://www.clintralphphotography.co.za


Comment section Conversation of above post (me included):

• les_native
  If the goal was strictly conservation, they should have started out with wild caught bengal tiger specimens from India and not captive bred mixed zoo tigers from Canada. Also, inbreeding should not have been allowed.
• les_native
  But I do think this experiment does have conservation value. For example it proves that tigers can be “rewilded”. And while these tigers are of mixed origins, if all the other tigers in the world perish, at least we still have these.
• sanjay_jayanth
  @les_native All are Panthera tigris tigris (main tiger subspecies) not "hybrids". wild caught tigers from India? LOL. it'll never happen. Our govt don't encourage such things.
• les_native
  @sanjay_jayanth the tigers from tiger canyons are of mixed Amur and Bengal crosses. This is a fact and John Varty has said so himself. The Indian government should consider a satellite group of genetically pure and already wild Bengal tigers being that your government doesn’t seem to have a handle on the situation. I don’t think it’s a laughing matter.
• sanjay_jayanth
  @les_native 75% of tiger population is in our country. you say we don't have situation under control? and you didn't understand my last reply. Bengal Tiger (Panthera tigris tigris), Amur tiger (Panthera tigris tigris), both are of same subspecies called mainland tiger and they are not "hybrids". There are only 2 subspecies "tigris" and "sondaica" not 9. In 2017, the Cat Classification Task Force of the IUCN Cat Specialist Group revised felid taxonomy and now recognizes the tiger populations in continental Asia as P. t. tigris, and those in the Sunda Islands as P. t. sondaica. https://repository.si.edu/bitstream/hand...sAllowed=y
• les_native
  @sanjay_jayanth there are many more captive tigers in America or China then there are wild tigers in India. So maybe you mean 75% wild tigers left in the world are in India? That still doesn’t mean that you have a handle on it. Your overpopulated people move further into the wild lands on a daily basis. I’m growing tired of watching videos of poor terrified leopards that have nowhere to go mangling curious villagers to bits. That said the reclassification of all mainland tiger subspecies into one is accepted by some studies and not all. Some say it’s a last ditch effort to maintain as much genetic diversity as possible. Tigers in the wild are doomed.
• sanjay_jayanth
  @les_native Yeah Tigers are doomed, other animal and plant species are also doomed, we are doomed. we are in 6th mass extinction event due to ourselves. yes, India has 70% "wild" tiger population. we are doing the best of the world in conservation, even being the 2nd most populated country. and most studies accepted, them as 2 subspecies instead of exaggerating as subspecies based on geographical names even having the same gene pool to be considered as 2 subspecies. whatever you say, in Tiger canyons tigers are conserved "Panthera tigris" not some hybrids like tigons and ligers. then there's no problem in it.
• les_native
  @sanjay_jayanth wild tigers in India, south China, Tibet, Siberia....where ever, are sadly, doomed. The animals of Tiger Canyons are a mix of P.T. Tigris and P.T. Altaica and possibly even more subspecies. The foundation stock were all Canadian born zoo tigers. who knows when and where exactly the ancestors of those tigers were actually taken from the wild. Also the animals of tiger canyons have a small gene pool as the foundation stock were very few in number. While they aren’t hybrids, and they are 100% tiger, they are still mutts with small gene pools. One or two even have physical deformities. There is a prime breeding male on the compound now that has a very odd ear carriage and it’s most likely a malformation due to inbreeding. The white female was just bred to her own son to create more white tigers. Also, these animals are held in large bomas with stocked game. They know how to kill but are overfed and fat. They look nothing like truly wild and lean Bengal tigers. Their coat colors vary. Some individuals are massive and others not. This is further evidence of them having mixed heritage.
• sanjay_jayanth
  @les_native yeah, but whatever they are all Panthera tigris tigris and one thing I have to accept is "white tigers" are genetic freaks born from MP's Rewa. They shouldn't be in the wild. but these tigers are being bred in Tiger canyons. This is the only bad thing about Tiger canyons.
• les_native
  @sanjay_jayanth there are several things wrong with tiger canyons, the animals being of mixed heritage is just one, but I do believe John Barry’s heart is in the right place.
• sanjay_jayanth
  @les_native they are all same subspecies of mainland tiger and moreover they are "tigers" primarily. No problem in that.
• les_native
  @sanjay_jayanth you are wrong. White tigers are still tigers yet you don’t like those. You’re biased on your opinions which are not based on any facts. WE WILL AGREE TO DISAGREE.
• sanjay_jayanth
  @les_native white tigers are genetic mutants which are born in Madhya Pradesh rewa but due to their special look, they are bred in captivity from that single tiger in all the zoos and captive places around the globe for special attraction. In the wild, it might had got extinct due because of that coat pattern which will be a disability to survive and hunt. But due to man they are still living in zoos and are highly inbred (with somatic and genetic abnormalities) to bring that white color recessive gene. They should never be in the wild. It is a fact, and against natural laws by breeding white tigers with the help of man.
• les_native
  @sanjay_jayanth well what Varyy is doing is also unnatural. it's also against natural law to allow cats that evolved in Asia for millions of years to roam freely in Africa, to turn specimens with mixed genes from all over Asia loose onto a foreign ecosystem and expect them to adapt successfully.
• sanjay_jayanth
  @les_native they are in closed and fenced environment separated from African wilderness in karoo's sheep farm lands like a Big zoo where tigers fend for themselves like wild ones by living with wild prey. Zoos are against to nature? absolutely not. THIS IS EX-SITU CONSERVATION. Tigers are helping South African Karoo by restoring natural environment and at the same time, some wild tigers will be left as like you said "Tigers" in Asia are doomed due to Fucking Chinese traditional medicine (CTM). Then this african tigers will be used to reintroduce in Asia. Whatever you say they are mixed or not, they are still "TIGERS" (Panthera tigris).
• les_native
  @sanjay_jayanth zoos are prisons but that’s an entirely different conversation. These mixed breed tigers have tiny gene pools and if reintroduced to India as “bengal” tigers, they will undoubtedly contaminate whatever wild population is left. Assuming of course that they are even able to adapt to the Indian habitats. As you know, where they are enclosed now is vastly different. The prey is different and even their style of hunting is different. Let’s face it. Since the game is also enclosed, it’s only a matter of time before it caught by the tigers. That’s why these animals in South Africa are mostly all overweight. These cats introduced to the Indian wild lands would probably die. ?
• sanjay_jayanth
  Tiger canyons is a prison too like zoo and fenced too but on large scale enclosure in which game can't ran away from canyons but still they need skills to hunt. Hunting is predator instinct, now this third generation of ild tiger is completely wild and even in India or sikhote alin, they can live once reintroduced. The same is Laohu Valley reserve which lies beside Tiger canyons "Save South China Tiger" to rewild and reintroduce tigers into china again. ever heard of that?
• sanjay_jayanth
  @les_native https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laohu_Valley_Reserve
• naomiroebert
  @les_native It is important to clarify in the case of Tiger Sundarban that the nature of his ear carriage is due to a fight that happened some years back between him and the tiger Tiger Boy. Sundarban was bitten in the neck and had to undergo surgery, all of which resulted in his unique ear placement. Tiger Sundarban is not a prime breeding male as he was born with a condition referred to as Bilateral Cryptorchidism. Cryptorchidism is the most common of birth defects in the sexual reproductive system amongst male animals. It is the absence of the testicles in the scrotum. He has been proven to be infertile and therefore cannot add to any genetic line. This condition does not occur as a result of inbreeding but is a commonality that occurs when the embryo fails to fully split between male and female during gestation. It might be of use to visit the new Tiger Canyon blog for future exciting updates and upcoming insightful posts on all the tigers...tigersafariafrica.com
  
  les_native
  @naomiroebert thank you for the clarification. Now, do you have any idea why the white tigress Tibo was allowed to mate and subsequently produce offspring with her own son? Varty says that the resulting offspring, two white cubs and one normal cub, will be sterilized and not allowed to mate in the future. But what if Varty changes his mind? Why are these highly inbred individuals even allowed to exist? This does nothing for conservation.
  

Reply