The Cave Lion (Panthera spelaea and Panthera fossilis)

[tigerluver]

(11-10-2018, 11:44 AM)GuateGojira Wrote:

(11-09-2018, 10:32 AM)tigerluver Wrote: On shoulder heights, I'd like to add some input based on actual bone data as most sources skip over that. Do not use weights as we can all see mass estimates are clearly unreliable and rather use long bone measurements for body size reconstruction. For the specimens we've recorded, all three giants likely reached around 130 cm. Nonetheless, based on probability it is quite likely there were a good amount of 140 cm P. fossilis we have not yet excavated. It was likely longer legged than modern cats (with distal limb elongation), meaning the largest of the bones are going to produce a very, very tall cat proportionately. One needs to understand that a 465 mm ulna and 192 mm MTIII are truly out of this world, no modern cat compares. Again weight and shoulder height are two different aspects.

The next point would be contrary to the conclusion of @GuateGojira. The largest bones of P. spelaea (470 mm femur, 475 mm skull which would be from a cat with a femur of around 465-470 mm), fall short of the 480 mm P. t. soloensis femur, meaning P. spelaea would likely be shorter. With the greater amount of P. spelaea specimens showing that the species was not really any smaller than P. atrox, P. atrox was likely about the same height as P. spelaea, perhaps somewhat taller for improved cursoriality. On this last point, maybe a chart showing the range of bone sizes of P. atrox and P. spelaea is in order to get P. spelaea its rightful recognition for its massive size.

I think that you know much more about the cave "lion" fossils that I, so your conclutions are much better than mine. I estimated that the cave "lions" and Panthera atrox were higher at shoulders that the Ngandong tigers just because I followed the general idea that tigers are normally "shorter" at the shoulders than lions on average, but to be honest, if the diference in the modern records is close to nothing, the same may happen with the Pleistocene specimens.

So, according with this, Panthera fossilis is still the largest cat, followed by Panthera tigris soloensis, and latter there is a tie between Panthera atrox and Panthera spelaea. Am I correct?

In terms of shoulder height, I agree. The P. fossilis distal long bones indicate that the cat reached unimaginable shoulder heights. In terms of mass and body length, the 480 mm femur should be able to match or exceed the largest P. fossilis in these regards if we assume the Ngandong specimen maintained the body length/mass to bone measurement ratio as modern tigers, which hold quite a bit of extra weight for bone measurements than lions and leopards (probably due to being proportionately longer in the axial skeleton and not robusticity). To match a 480 mm tiger femur in weight, a lion-like cat would need to have a femur of over 500 mm. The ulna and skull probably do not reach this value but the MTIII could get close. Reply