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Talamati/Msuthu Pride

Tr1x24 Offline
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( This post was last modified: 11-30-2022, 09:58 PM by Tr1x24 )

(11-30-2022, 07:49 PM)criollo2mil Wrote: I disagree it’s a mistaken name.   It should remain TALAMATI.  I think they followed proper protocol.  Those lionesses left one by one…..they made the decision to split off toward a new male.    The matriarchs stayed with the CORE.   Once these YFs enter estrus, the breakaways will no longer have more lionesses.  I do not think they’ll change any names of the core…..but simply give the Ladies w S8 a proper name.

It doesn’t matter if they breakaway 1 by 1, they are 3 females vs 1 ( 2 if you count SilverEye, although she was with them quite rare and only at the beginning) which is majority , and these 3 females stayed territorial on Talamatis core territory, under new dominant male, while subs went nomadic with 1 female (SilverEye never left Talamatis core territory, but she also didn't accept S8, she was basically neutral). This female will also die in near future, leaving 0 pre split females in that "core" pride? lol. 

This is like saying, when 4 Mhangenis breakaway with BB Tsalala female and become nomads , that 4 Mhangenis and BB should stayed Tsalalas, while 2 remaining Tsalala (Tailess and Tailed), who stayed in their territory and mated with new males, should be called breakaway or Mhangenis lol, because they had less numbers and oldest female left lol (regardless if BB Tsalala female returned back or not).

S8 females where started to be called breakaway's because they accepted S8 1 by 1, but eventually majority of those adult females accepted S8 male, which is territorial male on Talamati core territory.

This would be the only example i know that majority females who accepted new territorial male in their pride territory are called breakaway's, while their subs with 1 adult female are nomads and moved out of their pride territory are called core, because idk, they have only 1 oldest female who stayed with them.. 

Doesn't make any sense.
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Tonpa Offline
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Arathusa put out a  blog today on the Talamatis, some mistakes but it's something I guess
https://www.arathusa.co.za/2022/11/30/th...ion-pride/

The History Of The Talamati Lion Pride

Originally part of the Nkuhuma Pride, the Talamati Pride of lions broke away from the Nkuhumas in 2007 when the Mapogo males took over from the Manyeleti males. They established territory further north, where the females started mating with the Old Nkuhuma males. The two oldest lionesses in the Talamati pride – one of which is blind in one eye (known as Silver-eye) – were born from union. 

The Talamati Pride was officially named in 2011 after the Talamati Bushveld Camp (Talamati means ‘lots of water’ in Xitsonga). Here’s a brief history since then…

• 2011 – the pride was taken over by the Matimba males. Only one female cub sired by the Matimba males survived, but is no longer with the pride.
• 2015 – The Matimba males were chased out by the Birmingham males, which lead to the Selati males moving in and claiming the Talamati Pride. During this reign 2 females died, leaving the pride with 3 lionesses.
• 2018 – the 3 brothers of the Northern Avoca male coalition became the dominant males of the area, forcing the Birmingham males to move south and claiming the Talamati Pride (as well as the Nkuhuma Pride) as their own.
• Early 2020 – the Dark Mane Avoca male separated himself from his brothers and claimed the 5 Talamati lionesses.

In 2021, the Imbali takeover occurred… The Imbali male sensed that Dark Mane was alone and attempted to claim the Talamati Pride as his own. During this takeover, 2 females got killed by the Imbali males and 1 male lion disappeared. This takeover caused the Talamati Pride to split in two, which is how we see them today:

Talamati main pride
• 4 Lionesses – Born late 2018 early 2019, sired by Avoca males
• Blue-eyed/Silver-eyed Female lioness – Born around 2007/2008
• Two young adult males – Born late 2018/early 2019, sired by Avoca males
There are 4 lionesses and 2 young males. The silver eye female has been on her own for a while now, but when she joins the pride there are 5 lionesses.
The Talamatis main pride has moved more to the area west/south-west of Arathusa.
Dark mane is also occasionally found with these Talamatis.

Talamati breakaway pride
• Two Lionesses – Born around 2014, sired by Selati males
• One Lioness – Born around 2012, sire Unknown
• Five Cubs – Born around January 2022, sired by the S8 male
• S8 Male – Born around 2014

The Talamati breakaways are comprised of 3 females with 5 cubs. They are located in south Manyeleti, Buffelshoek and the far northern part of Djuma..
The S8 male is the father of all the cubs, and is responsible for the safety of those cubs and the females. He looks after the territory that they currently reside on.
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Belgium criollo2mil Online
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(12-01-2022, 05:43 AM)Tonpa Wrote: Arathusa put out a  blog today on the Talamatis, some mistakes but it's something I guess
https://www.arathusa.co.za/2022/11/30/th...ion-pride/

The History Of The Talamati Lion Pride

Originally part of the Nkuhuma Pride, the Talamati Pride of lions broke away from the Nkuhumas in 2007 when the Mapogo males took over from the Manyeleti males. They established territory further north, where the females started mating with the Old Nkuhuma males. The two oldest lionesses in the Talamati pride – one of which is blind in one eye (known as Silver-eye) – were born from union. 

The Talamati Pride was officially named in 2011 after the Talamati Bushveld Camp (Talamati means ‘lots of water’ in Xitsonga). Here’s a brief history since then…

• 2011 – the pride was taken over by the Matimba males. Only one female cub sired by the Matimba males survived, but is no longer with the pride.
• 2015 – The Matimba males were chased out by the Birmingham males, which lead to the Selati males moving in and claiming the Talamati Pride. During this reign 2 females died, leaving the pride with 3 lionesses.
• 2018 – the 3 brothers of the Northern Avoca male coalition became the dominant males of the area, forcing the Birmingham males to move south and claiming the Talamati Pride (as well as the Nkuhuma Pride) as their own.
• Early 2020 – the Dark Mane Avoca male separated himself from his brothers and claimed the 5 Talamati lionesses.

In 2021, the Imbali takeover occurred… The Imbali male sensed that Dark Mane was alone and attempted to claim the Talamati Pride as his own. During this takeover, 2 females got killed by the Imbali males and 1 male lion disappeared. This takeover caused the Talamati Pride to split in two, which is how we see them today:

Talamati main pride
• 4 Lionesses – Born late 2018 early 2019, sired by Avoca males
• Blue-eyed/Silver-eyed Female lioness – Born around 2007/2008
• Two young adult males – Born late 2018/early 2019, sired by Avoca males
There are 4 lionesses and 2 young males. The silver eye female has been on her own for a while now, but when she joins the pride there are 5 lionesses.
The Talamatis main pride has moved more to the area west/south-west of Arathusa.
Dark mane is also occasionally found with these Talamatis.

Talamati breakaway pride
• Two Lionesses – Born around 2014, sired by Selati males
• One Lioness – Born around 2012, sire Unknown
• Five Cubs – Born around January 2022, sired by the S8 male
• S8 Male – Born around 2014

The Talamati breakaways are comprised of 3 females with 5 cubs. They are located in south Manyeleti, Buffelshoek and the far northern part of Djuma..
The S8 male is the father of all the cubs, and is responsible for the safety of those cubs and the females. He looks after the territory that they currently reside on.

I do see a few inconsistencies but Still very good info.   Thank you for sharing.   I don’t think I would have seen this otherwise.   

Maybe we can sort of pin (add/amend ) this link as reference to the lead post speaking of the history?   Just a suggestion.
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Tonpa Offline
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Regarding the Breakaway/not breakaway thing I think the window for a decision is gone. Arathusa, Djuma, WildEarth and the broader Lion community refers to the three as the breakaways, although interestingly Elephant Plains referred to the sub-adults as the breakaways in the last weeks report whilst previously referring to them as just the "Talamati sub-adults". I think unless the majority of lodges start calling them core I'll just continue calling them breakaway for now

Cubless Breakaway lioness and the 1:2 cub by Deon Kelbrick


*This image is copyright of its original author
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Tr1x24 Offline
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(12-01-2022, 06:39 PM)Tonpa Wrote: Regarding the Breakaway/not breakaway thing I think the window for a decision is gone. Arathusa, Djuma, WildEarth and the broader Lion community refers to the three as the breakaways, although interestingly Elephant Plains referred to the sub-adults as the breakaways in the last weeks report whilst previously referring to them as just the "Talamati sub-adults". I think unless the majority of lodges start calling them core I'll just continue calling them breakaway for now

Cubless Breakaway lioness and the 1:2 cub by Deon Kelbrick

Well yea, if majority of lodges calls them like that, its done (although its wrong). 

I just hope they dont rename them, atleast leave them the name Talamati breakaway.
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Tr1x24 Offline
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(12-01-2022, 05:43 AM)Tonpa Wrote: • Two Lionesses – Born around 2014, sired by Selati males
• One Lioness – Born around 2012, sire Unknown

Selati offspring is born around late 2015. 

That 1 lioness from 2012 is Matimbas offspring.
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Belgium criollo2mil Online
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Talamatis strike again!

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Belgium criollo2mil Online
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(12-01-2022, 06:43 PM)Tr1x24 Wrote:
(12-01-2022, 06:39 PM)Tonpa Wrote: Regarding the Breakaway/not breakaway thing I think the window for a decision is gone. Arathusa, Djuma, WildEarth and the broader Lion community refers to the three as the breakaways, although interestingly Elephant Plains referred to the sub-adults as the breakaways in the last weeks report whilst previously referring to them as just the "Talamati sub-adults". I think unless the majority of lodges start calling them core I'll just continue calling them breakaway for now

Cubless Breakaway lioness and the 1:2 cub by Deon Kelbrick

Well yea, if majority of lodges calls them like that, its done (although its wrong). 

I just hope they dont rename them, atleast leave them the name Talamati breakaway.

are there any examples (I know the Mala Mala vs Londolozi feud) of instances where a reserve chooses to rename a Pride differently than what another reserve has established….for example a Pride that’s moved territories?

I know that there’s some type of Animous between londolozi and Malala where they do not use each other’s names.   Any more out there.
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Tonpa Offline
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(12-02-2022, 12:49 AM)criollo2mil Wrote:
(12-01-2022, 06:43 PM)Tr1x24 Wrote:
(12-01-2022, 06:39 PM)Tonpa Wrote: Regarding the Breakaway/not breakaway thing I think the window for a decision is gone. Arathusa, Djuma, WildEarth and the broader Lion community refers to the three as the breakaways, although interestingly Elephant Plains referred to the sub-adults as the breakaways in the last weeks report whilst previously referring to them as just the "Talamati sub-adults". I think unless the majority of lodges start calling them core I'll just continue calling them breakaway for now

Cubless Breakaway lioness and the 1:2 cub by Deon Kelbrick

Well yea, if majority of lodges calls them like that, its done (although its wrong). 

I just hope they dont rename them, atleast leave them the name Talamati breakaway.

are there any examples (I know the Mala Mala vs Londolozi feud) of instances where a reserve chooses to rename a Pride differently than what another reserve has established….for example a Pride that’s moved territories?

I know that there’s some type of Animous between londolozi and Malala where they do not use each other’s names.   Any more out there.

In Balule there's the Kudyela/Thakazile Pride. One lodge named them Kudyela pride which was the name of the dominant male, so "Kudyela's pride", another named them Thakazile which is I think is the name of the land or the farm the lodge is on.
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DARK MANE Offline
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( This post was last modified: 12-03-2022, 08:13 AM by DARK MANE )

S8 and talamati breakaway
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Tonpa Offline
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Subs on a buff 

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Tonpa Offline
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Old girl alone on the buffalo

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Tonpa Offline
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This afternoon 
Guides aren't certain, but they think the cub distrubution is 3 boys 2 girls.



*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author
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Tonpa Offline
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Talamatis from the air

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United States SMK350 Offline
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( This post was last modified: 12-09-2022, 05:52 AM by SMK350 )

TALAMATI ORIGINS

I know there are a lot of theories on the Talamati origins, but I think we need to look at “just the facts.”  Here are some of the first mentions of the Talamati Pride, which only start in 2012. In fact there is no record of a Talamati Pride before these dates: 


A coalition of 5 male Lions have moved into the concession, they were drawn in by the recent Buffalo kill made by the Talamati Lionesses. The five males and four Talamati females spent the better part of four days on the kill.' [Imbali Lodge - Aug 2012]

“Last night a pride of 3 lionesses, 3 cubs and an adult male lion were found just outside of Hamiltons. — with Joe van Zyl and Wesley Cragg." [November 2012]


*This image is copyright of its original author


One of the first hints that the pride is new to the Mluwati Concession is that some of the lodges, like Hamiltons, simply call them “3 lionesses” and there is no agreed upon name for them.

But by 2013, everyone in that area knew them as the Talamatis: 

Blue-eyed Talamati Female in Black and White - Mluwati Concession, Kruger National Park.” [April 2013]


*This image is copyright of its original author


What’s interesting is that when they returned to the Manyeleti, the rangers instantly recognized Blue/Silver Eye as not a “new" lioness, but their beloved Nkuhuma.

 
Lions of Tintswalo Nkuhuma lioness with a blind eye [June 2013]



The Nkuhuma Pride of Lions in the Manyaleti game reserve slaking their thirst after feeding on a Zebra… By, Andrew Schoeman [March 2013]


*This image is copyright of its original author


So why did Silver Eye split from the Nkuhumas?


Hypothesis 1: Because of the Mapogo takeover [2007/2008]

Evidence for:
  • Some guides in a neighboring reserve said so
Evidence against: 
  • Nkuhumas were safe from the Mapogos once in the Manyeleti, and there is no record [report, photos] of a splitter pride at this time. 
  • It makes no sense for females to run further west into Imbali with small cubs rather than stick close to their dominant male Dozie 
  • Manyeleti knew Blue/Silver Eye as an Nkuhuma which supports the idea that she grew up on their reserve 

Hypothesis 2: The Talamatis broke away during the Dozie/Gijima era [2008-2011]:

Evidence for:
  • None. No reports, photos, or rational behind why females would abandon their dominant male Dozie to flee to Imbali
Evidence against: 
  • The Gijima males took over the pride at the end of 2009 and were known to be tolerant of Dozie’s cubs. “Not a single report about the Gijima Males harassing females or killing cubs." So Nkuhumas did not flee the Gijimas 
  • There is no record of a breakaway group in Imabali at this point
  • When Blue Eye arrives in Imbali she already has a blind eye, and the Manyeleti knew how she lost her eye— again more supporting evidence she grew up in the Manyeleti

Hypothesis 3: Talamatis broke away during the MATIMBA takeover [2010-2011]:

Evidence against: 
  • No report talking about the breakaway
  • Most of what we know about the Talamati pride is “circumstantial evidence” so we must always be honest this
Evidence for: 
  • Silver Eye’s appearance in Imbali coincides with when the Matimbas invaded Manyeleti 
  • Silver Eye would be barely an adult, so it makes sense why 3/4 year old females would flee a takeover
  • The Gijima males, and Nkuhuma “sub-adults” such as Nana and Nkuhuma males, also fled:

Towards the end of 2010 and beginning of 2011 they [the Gijimas] made a return to Western Gowrie (in company of 4 females from the Nkuhuma Pride) after the Matimbas attacked and chased them.

"One of the Nkuhuma brothers - a coalition of young males that come into the area from time to time. As it is the territory of the dreaded Majingilani males, these young guys keep a very low profile as they would be in real trouble if the Majingilanis caught them on their turf.’ [Sept 2011] 


Hypothesis 3 is the only one that makes sense, based on what we know of the Nkuhumas from that time. 


MATIMBA ERA:

By the end of 2011, Silver Eye’s group were taken over by the Matimbas once the Matimbas expanded west. 

Hamilton’s Tented Camp [Nov 2012] "Good afternoon…the Male we have been speaking about, Stompie [Ndhuna], does spend a lot of time with this particular pride of 6 females. [3 females + 3 cubs]." "This blue eyed female has 3 cubs that she conceived after courtship with Stompie."


*This image is copyright of its original author


Until “Stompie”/Ndhuna’s disappearance in 2013, The Talamatis preferred to stay west in the Mluwati Concession. After his death, the Talamatis started to push back into the Maneleyti to stay close to the other Matimbas, which is the first big departure from their core territory as a pride (second, if you count their initial runaway as young females).

The core pride at this time is made up of three females who are the “Original 3” [Photos are from Tintswalo from the Selati Era] 

Silver Eye (left), Sister (bottom), and Female #3 (right): 


*This image is copyright of its original author




To be continued if I have time...
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