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Size comparisons
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 (04-15-2019, 01:00 PM)Luipaard Wrote: And do you know what kind of leopard your zoo has? You can't compare a small leopard subspecies with a large subspecies of jaguar.3 are from East Africa, 2 are Persian (the most beautifull specimens I've ever seen with nice elongated body). I don't know the origin of the 3 jaguars, most probably from Brazil. Again jaguars are 1,5-2 times more massive, I have seen them hundred times. I don't talk so much about linear size - length or height but about immense, almost bear-like robustness of the jaguars. Look how jaguar is walking, almost like a bear, for sure not gracious like other cats. In same linear dimentions of jaguar you could place 1,5 leopards, which are much more slender. Pantanal is famous as place where big jaguars could be easily spotted. But I dont think that jaguars from other parts of Brazil are much smaller. Amazon rain forest in Brazil and surrounding countries comprise 90% of jaguars in the world and they all are more or less big, not far in size to Pantanals jaguars. True, jaguars from South Mexico are much smaller and have a size of leopards, but their number is insignificant in comparison with jaguars from the endless Amazon forest and they are not representative for the specie. If we get the smallest leopard subspecie - Arabian they are definetily smaller than southern Mexican jaguars, with females Arabian leopards having average body mass of 20 kg... and some of them even 15 kg... The size of Amazon:  *This image is copyright of its original author So, lets not turn upsite down a fact that everybody should know from the school - that jaguar is by far the third largest cat in the world.  (04-16-2019, 07:49 PM)Wolverine Wrote:(04-15-2019, 01:00 PM)Luipaard Wrote: And do you know what kind of leopard your zoo has? You can't compare a small leopard subspecies with a large subspecies of jaguar.3 are from East Africa, 2 are Persian (the most beautifull specimens I've ever seen with nice elongated body). I don't know the origin of the 3 jaguars, most probably from Brazil. Again jaguars are 1,5-2 times more massive, I have seen them hundred times. I don't talk so much about linear size - length or height but about immense, almost bear-like robustness of the jaguars. Look how jaguar is walking, almost like a bear, for sure not gracious like other cats. In same linear dimentions of jaguar you could place 1,5 leopards, which are much more slender. Quote:Again jaguars are 1,5-2 times more massive Again, depends which leopard subspecies you're using for your comparison. For example, I would say a jaguar is even 3 times more massive than an Arabian leopard. But same can be said about a Central African leopard, who makes an Arabian leopard look like a different species. Quote:Look how jaguar is walking, almost like a bear, for sure not gracious like other cats That has more to do with how they're built overall (e.g. shorter limbs). Check out the anatomy of a jaguar and you know what I'm talking about. Quote:In same linear dimentions of jaguar you could place 1,5 leopards, which are much more slender. Again, depends of which subspecies of leopard. Yes, overall they're more slender. But let's not forget that there are bigger, more robust subspecies of leopards out there. This particular male for example, will be equal next to a Pantanal jaguar  *This image is copyright of its original author  *This image is copyright of its original author Which is what I'm constantly trying to say; they overlap in size. Quote:jaguars from South Mexico are much smaller and have a size of leopards Not only South Mexico, whole Central America: an adult male from Belize averages 57kg and two male jaguars from the Peruvian Amazon weighed 31 and 37kg for example. Quote:If we get the smallest leopard subspecie - Arabian they are definetily smaller than southern Mexican jaguars, with females Arabian leopards having average body mass of 20 kg... and some of them even 15 kg... Well that is my point, they overlap in size (and bulk for some leopard subspecies.). Quote:So, lets not turn upsite down a fact that everybody should know from the school - that jaguar is by far the third largest cat in the world. Well I never denied that. What I do know from school is that jaguars weigh 100kg and leopards about 60kg. And that's partly true. My point is that they overlap in pretty much everything, nothing more, nothing less.  (04-17-2019, 11:31 AM)Luipaard Wrote:(04-16-2019, 07:49 PM)Wolverine Wrote:(04-15-2019, 01:00 PM)Luipaard Wrote: And do you know what kind of leopard your zoo has? You can't compare a small leopard subspecies with a large subspecies of jaguar.3 are from East Africa, 2 are Persian (the most beautifull specimens I've ever seen with nice elongated body). I don't know the origin of the 3 jaguars, most probably from Brazil. Again jaguars are 1,5-2 times more massive, I have seen them hundred times. I don't talk so much about linear size - length or height but about immense, almost bear-like robustness of the jaguars. Look how jaguar is walking, almost like a bear, for sure not gracious like other cats. In same linear dimentions of jaguar you could place 1,5 leopards, which are much more slender. Just to put this in simple way. Leopards aren´t as big as jaguars overall. Some exceptional individuals aren´t same as average. This discussion has started to be ridiculous and it looks like a good time to stop repeating things over and over again. Of course not my decision, but my opinion. (04-16-2019, 05:09 PM)Rishi Wrote:https://bigcatrescue.org/anatolian-leopards/(04-16-2019, 03:40 PM)Arctotherium Wrote: Anatolian Leopard is largest Leopard(With African Leopard) This link says Anatolian Leopard bigger than African Leopard. (04-17-2019, 12:16 PM)Shadow Wrote:(04-17-2019, 11:31 AM)Luipaard Wrote:(04-16-2019, 07:49 PM)Wolverine Wrote:(04-15-2019, 01:00 PM)Luipaard Wrote: And do you know what kind of leopard your zoo has? You can't compare a small leopard subspecies with a large subspecies of jaguar.3 are from East Africa, 2 are Persian (the most beautifull specimens I've ever seen with nice elongated body). I don't know the origin of the 3 jaguars, most probably from Brazil. Again jaguars are 1,5-2 times more massive, I have seen them hundred times. I don't talk so much about linear size - length or height but about immense, almost bear-like robustness of the jaguars. Look how jaguar is walking, almost like a bear, for sure not gracious like other cats. In same linear dimentions of jaguar you could place 1,5 leopards, which are much more slender. I know they're bigger overall. I never denied that. Also, I think it's a healthy discussion with some good points and arguments. It's just my opinion and I'll stop repeating it for you so here it is for the last time: yes, some leopard subspecies overlap with Pantanal jaguars, not in averages but still. The same applies to South American jaguars who overlap in size and weight with lionesses. (04-17-2019, 03:29 PM)Luipaard Wrote:(04-17-2019, 12:16 PM)Shadow Wrote:(04-17-2019, 11:31 AM)Luipaard Wrote:(04-16-2019, 07:49 PM)Wolverine Wrote:(04-15-2019, 01:00 PM)Luipaard Wrote: And do you know what kind of leopard your zoo has? You can't compare a small leopard subspecies with a large subspecies of jaguar.3 are from East Africa, 2 are Persian (the most beautifull specimens I've ever seen with nice elongated body). I don't know the origin of the 3 jaguars, most probably from Brazil. Again jaguars are 1,5-2 times more massive, I have seen them hundred times. I don't talk so much about linear size - length or height but about immense, almost bear-like robustness of the jaguars. Look how jaguar is walking, almost like a bear, for sure not gracious like other cats. In same linear dimentions of jaguar you could place 1,5 leopards, which are much more slender. And I hope, that you don´t feel offended. When you get replies from that Jo about leopard sizes and how they think there it is of course interesting and I hope, that you share then what she says. New information is always welcome if possible to get.  (04-17-2019, 11:31 AM)Luipaard Wrote: This particular male for example, will be equal next to a Pantanal jaguar See, that's the issue with photo comparison. How do we know how big that leopard was? We all can see he's very well-built like a jaguar, but you can't know if he's 6 inches shorter than the average jaguar or not... A few special leopards may definitely be almost as large as, or even a bit larger, than below average jaguars of Pantanal subspecies... but that's like some of both overlapping with 140kg male lions or sumatran male tigers who maybe upto 120kg. (04-17-2019, 12:18 PM)Arctotherium Wrote: https://bigcatrescue.org/anatolian-leopards/ Firstly, thanks for the source. But it's just some random article from 13 years ago. Also aren't Anatolian leopards just a western metapopulation of Persian ones? It was never a recognised subspecies. Secondly, all i found was: ...Some of the leopards that he killed were over 100 kgs. That is/was true for Indian, Amur, Sri Lankan, African, Persian etc. leopards too & not enough to call them "slightly bulkier than their African cousins". But most importantly, what I'm interested in is, how many leopards are still alive in Turkey? What is the standard of protection for them over there? (04-17-2019, 04:32 PM)Rishi Wrote:In Turkey,Anatolian Leopard is extinct.But It can come back(Looks like Cave Lion,Mammoth and others)(04-17-2019, 11:31 AM)Luipaard Wrote: This particular male for example, will be equal next to a Pantanal jaguar
This is from a very knowledgeable person from another forum. I fully agree with this:
Quote:"It should be borne in mind that these huge swamp jaguars from the Pantanal (and Llanos) prey routinely on cattle and generally live very easy lives. Under more natural circumstances they probably wouldn't be so big and bulky. I'm more interested in the jaguars which persist on wild prey like peccaries and tapirs, these are the true jaguars IMO. In the Paraguayan Chaco which is adjacent to the Pantanal, jaguars live on an entirely natural diet and the average weight of 8 adult males there was 88.5kg. Same genetics but no easy prey." Quote:"Nonetheless, I think it’s safe to say the jaguar generally is a more robust or powerfully built animal than other felids with which it overlaps in size. However, the difference probably isn’t as extreme as a lot of people seem to believe and there will certainly be a lot of overlap due to individual variation." (04-18-2019, 10:40 AM)Arctotherium Wrote:(04-17-2019, 04:32 PM)Rishi Wrote: But most importantly, what I'm interested in is, how many leopards are still alive in Turkey?In Turkey,Anatolian Leopard is extinct.But It can come back(Looks like Cave Lion,Mammoth and others) But we come across news reports (like this) about them. Research shows that they are present in southwestern region.  *This image is copyright of its original author
 (04-18-2019, 11:20 AM)Luipaard Wrote: This is from a very knowledgeable person from another forum. I fully agree with this: What about Los llanos, are those primarily cattle killers too? Panatanl Jaguar prey on Caiman as their primary source but they prey on capybara, peccaries, otters, snakes and many others. You have a whole thread of jaguar predation from the pantanal and not one of them is a Jag preying on cattle there. In reserve/cattle farm in west Brazil, Jaguars and Puma contributed to 32 cattle killings in a year and the cattle killings were almost all calves and the individual were ones pushed to the outskirts where their territories overlapped. Here you can see the same study over a course of 4-5 years https://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=cat...fJQ1lheoMJ Once a Jaguar becomes a problem individual, it becomes public enemy number one and it's usually poisoned or hunted down, you of course see this in Belize, the Amazon, Caatinga and Bolivia as well, infact you see this almost anywhere cattle and Jaguars cross path's but even so the pantanal and Los llanos consistantly produce the largest individuals so I think they'll have to keep looking for a better reason for that. (04-18-2019, 11:20 AM)Luipaard Wrote:Quote:"It should be borne in mind that these huge swamp jaguars from the Pantanal (and Llanos) prey routinely on cattle and generally live very easy lives. While Pantanal jaguars for sure eat cattle, many leopards in India and Africa are also addicted cattle killers, even in higher degree, but they don't reach even close the size of Pantanal jaguars. Jaguars as a rule are much more shy towards humans and avoid them, while many leopards reside very close to human settlements and even enter the villages to kill domestic animals. Even if you feed day and night a leopard with tasty fat beef it will never reach the size of Pantanal jaguar, because jaguar is much larger cat. Adult male jaguar from Brazil is not much smaller than lioness. The largest jaguar I've seen was only a bit smaller than lioness. Pantanal jaguars are famous not only because they are large, but because its easier to be observed. It's quite possible that in some parts of vast inhabited Amazon rain forests covering 5 million square kms could be found also jaguars who rival in size Pantanal's but they are just not so much studied and hence not so famous.
In this link there is a photo of a jaguar and a leopard side by side and profiles of their heads there. Leopard is the one in front. Difference of their heads is there very easy to see. Both are males.
https://www.wildcatsanctuary.org/the-top-5-differences-between-jaguars-and-leopards/
But it has been suggested that before the arrival of European ranchers the jaguars there may have not have reached the monstrous sizes they do now. A similar trend is noted with leopards in Southern Africa, according to hunters ranchland leopards are larger and bulkier than those elsewhere in South Africa.
From the paper, "Body mass and skull measurements in four jaguar populations and observations on their prey base.":  *This image is copyright of its original author
While jaguar and leopard is in reality no contest, jaguars are simply bigger, I find puma - leopard situation much more interesting. In many occasions it is said, that puma is nro 5 what comes to sizes of big cats, but then again when looking at weights mentioned in many sites and articles it looks like that leopards are after all smaller(?). For instance in this article is said, that male pumas can weight 250 lbs and even more.
https://sciencing.com/differences-puma-cougar-mountain-lion-8514376.html It would be interesting to know, that to what is based claim, that leopards would be bigger if this article has valid information. After all for male leopard 90 kg is on upper limit when looking overall information about them. |
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