There is a world somewhere between reality and fiction. Although ignored by many, it is very real and so are those living in it. This forum is about the natural world. Here, wild animals will be heard and respected. The forum offers a glimpse into an unknown world as well as a room with a view on the present and the future. Anyone able to speak on behalf of those living in the emerald forest and the deep blue sea is invited to join.
12-06-2014, 09:16 AM( This post was last modified: 12-06-2014, 09:16 AM by GuateGojira )
Again, why so much hate and lies against such an excellent method to understand animals, like radiocollaring?
There had been a few deaths, but all have been accidents and the percentage is less than 5% (much less in other animals) from entire captures. You are acting like a zelote against something that you simply don't understand.
The benefits of camera traps are only on tiger density, thanks to its stripe pattern, but even at 2014, they are still useless to estimate other animal densities, prey densities is made by transects studies (Karanth et al. 2013). The only other use is to found undiscovered behaviors and STILL, camera traps per se can't show us if those particular behaviors are the norm or the rule.
Science is not a simple paper, it need deep investigation, but you simple can't understand this, why? Well, that is my question.
Finally, scientists and experts, I mean REAL experts, agree with me. All those comments from ignorant people are immature and irrelevant. Science will keep they steeps, that is all what matters.
12-06-2014, 09:19 AM( This post was last modified: 12-06-2014, 09:20 AM by GuateGojira )
(12-06-2014, 12:45 AM)'Pckts' Wrote: Already read that cover up story. The tigeress was found to have maggots infesting its infected wounds on her neck fromt he radio collar.
Cover up story??? Do you think this is a conspiracy or what??? You are really more paranoid every new day. [img]images/smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]
12-06-2014, 09:24 AM( This post was last modified: 12-06-2014, 09:25 AM by GuateGojira )
(12-06-2014, 02:07 AM)'Pckts' Wrote:
*This image is copyright of its original author
So, just because a few people is making bad use and using wrong tools, ALL radiocollaring projects are wrong??? That is simply ridiculous.
The problem in this case are the GPS systems, because in the entire history of the Nepalese Tiger Project, of the studies in Nagarahole, Panna and even the Russian Far East, were they used the VHF collars, there were not so much failures in them. Some of them probably failed sometimes, nothing is perfect in this world, but they simple changed it and the results of those studies are the base of the 80% of modern tiger knowledge.
(12-06-2014, 12:45 AM)'Pckts' Wrote: Already read that cover up story. The tigeress was found to have maggots infesting its infected wounds on her neck fromt he radio collar.
Cover up story??? Do you think this is a conspiracy or what??? You are really more paranoid every new day. [img]images/smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]
Maggots in her injures... According with who???
THis is is always your go to
"paranoid" or "hippies"
Like has been posted and shown by numerous people involved with the carcass, she was maggot infested, wounds throughout her neck and infected. This came from the people who actually saw her.
White conservatives in the 60s used to call activists against vietnam "hippies" because they didn't know how to accept a different point of view. I feel like you tend to do the same Gaute.
No offense
Im done debating this with you, I will just continue post more and more information that confirms the effectiveness of camera traps and allows us to see that collars are a unneccassary means of obtaining information that can easily be obtained through less stressful means.
Other than, finding a specific individual tiger so it can be seen whenever we want.
(12-06-2014, 08:35 PM)'GuateGojira' Wrote: You don't want to continue the debate? Ok.
Let's focus in other things.
Good day.[img]images/smilies/wink.gif[/img]
I would continue if you would stop using words such as "paranoid" or "hippies" and offer up reasoning as to why as oppose to just tossing out their ideas and good information. Its seems a bit disrespectful and kind of dissmisses actual evidence taken from people involved with these tigers.
I post actual articles of the success of camera traps and you say its "irrelevant" to this thread which is specifically about it. You know I respect your opinions but I want to try and debate this in a factual sort of way with more respect, on both ends.
Fair?
12-06-2014, 09:09 PM( This post was last modified: 12-06-2014, 09:10 PM by GuateGojira )
Persons that attack a scientific procedure, in base of few accidents and a few failures, that don't represent even the 5% of the total, and try to stop Science in favor of a twisted "love" for "mother nature" is a "hippie", I don't have a better word for that "anti-scientific" people.
A person that see "conspirators" and "lies" in every corner is a "paranoid".
Articles about the use of camera traps are good, but like I have explained several times, its use is STILL limited to the record of tiger density and the record of particular behaviors of some specimens. By the way, most of the photographs presented here are from people that actually have taken the images, not from camera traps.
In the future, new technology will surpass the use of radiocollars and the use of different camera systems will allow scientists to even estimate the size (and weight too) of animals, via 3D photographic uses. I have found that some people in South Africa is using it now. The point here is that you (and your hippie friends) can't attack a procedure with such a hate, when the 80% of tiger knowledge is based on this. Science is always evolving and with time, collars will be a thing of the past. But for the moment, this is the best that we have and you can't go discrediting the REAL experts every time.
Scientists are people that have studied for years, that have make great efforts for understanding tigers and its conservation, and that are prepared in the real field work. If you dismiss them in favor of a group of guys with cameras, that is your problem. But STOP discrediting the experts, Dr Sunquist, Dr Karanth, Dr Smith and many others had made an excellent work, maybe if you had an academic preparation, you will know the effort and "heart" that we put on it. Am I explaining my self clear?
Nobody is "attacking" scientific procedure. Especially the fact that scientists are using these camera traps in their findings.
"The point here is that you (and your hippie friends) can't attack a procedure with such a hate, when the 80% of tiger knowledge is based on this"
This is what I am talking about.
My Hippie friends are actual scientists. And there is NO chance that 80% of Tiger knowledge is from Collars. That is a complete fabrication by you. I have discredited no one, and have shown numerous Dr.s who use camera traps as proof. You are the one discrediting here, not me.
Credit to Apollo
"Gabbar aka leopardface, seems to have lost some weight after collaring. But I dont no the exact reason behind is weight loss.
Recently the forest department has put a collar on him for tracking. It was told by the guide and driver that since the day they put the collar, he used to run away on seeing the vehicles."
12-11-2014, 10:02 AM( This post was last modified: 12-11-2014, 10:03 AM by GuateGojira )
You are speculating here, and heavily. We know of several tigers with large weight variation, with and without radiocollars, the best cases are the famous Sauraha male (M105) from Nepal and Dale (Pt20) from Russia. They in fact, increased its weight after radiocollaring them.
The point here is not to blame the method, but the people that employ it.
None of you have answer one important question, WHY those tigers are been radiocollared? As far I know, there is not a single scientific study about these tigers (Kanha, I guess) and not a single report about them.
The problem here is not the radiocollaring per se, but the people that employ it. Every process can be safe, as long as is carrying out by professionals. Even dynamite is safe and good if used correctly.
To blame radiocollars with no evidence is irresponsible, first you MOST know the answers of the questions that I established here:
1. Who is collaring these tigers?
2. Why they are been radiocollared?
12-11-2014, 10:10 AM( This post was last modified: 12-11-2014, 10:39 AM by GuateGojira )
(12-09-2014, 12:56 AM)'Pckts' Wrote: Nobody is "attacking" scientific procedure. Especially the fact that scientists are using these camera traps in their findings.
"The point here is that you (and your hippie friends) can't attack a procedure with such a hate, when the 80% of tiger knowledge is based on this"
This is what I am talking about.
My Hippie friends are actual scientists. And there is NO chance that 80% of Tiger knowledge is from Collars. That is a complete fabrication by you. I have discredited no one, and have shown numerous Dr.s who use camera traps as proof. You are the one discrediting here, not me.
Scientists? Sorry, but to have a camera don't make a person a "scientists". It requires... a liiiitle more time in University. [img]images/smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]
Finally, where do you think that all the knowledge of tigers came? Obviously, from the Nepal studies, from the Nagarahole studies and the Panna studies, ALL of them used Radiocollars. Also, in Russia, 90% of modern knowledge of tiger came from the Siberian Tiger Project studies, which is Radiocollars. In fact, 80% of tiger knowledge in India came from those scientific studies, plus the one year observation of Schaller (he don't used collars, but probably would use them). Read ANY scientific and profesional book on tigers, and the data came from the studies mentioned above.
It is very sad that people like you still think that the scientific knowledge is bad. I have mentioned this many times, but it you simple can't understand it: BOTH methods are good, and BOTH complement each other, but cameras alone CAN'T give you the full frame, don't provide QUALITATIVE DATA and only long therm studies are able to teach us how is the behavior and sociability of the tigers.
Ethyl is a 20 year old grizzly she-bear who has made a 2,800 mile trek during the past three years. This information comes from her radio-collar GPS system.
(12-11-2014, 10:02 AM)'GuateGojira' Wrote: You are speculating here, and heavily. We know of several tigers with large weight variation, with and without radiocollars, the best cases are the famous Sauraha male (M105) from Nepal and Dale (Pt20) from Russia. They in fact, increased its weight after radiocollaring them.
The point here is not to blame the method, but the people that employ it.
None of you have answer one important question, WHY those tigers are been radiocollared? As far I know, there is not a single scientific study about these tigers (Kanha, I guess) and not a single report about them.
The problem here is not the radiocollaring per se, but the people that employ it. Every process can be safe, as long as is carrying out by professionals. Even dynamite is safe and good if used correctly.
To blame radiocollars with no evidence is irresponsible, first you MOST know the answers of the questions that I established here:
1. Who is collaring these tigers?
2. Why they are been radiocollared?
There is anyone that actually know the answers?
I'll agree the Gabbar losing weight is a speculation. But him becoming skiddish towards humans is understandable after being "abducted" by them.
Ethyl is a 20 year old grizzly she-bear who has made a 2,800 mile trek during the past three years. This information comes from her radio-collar GPS system.
Could of been obtained with camera traps as well. Just like how Jai was tracked via camera traps during his long trek to find new habitat.
Eyes on or hands on? A discussion of human interference
