There is a world somewhere between reality and fiction. Although ignored by many, it is very real and so are those living in it. This forum is about the natural world. Here, wild animals will be heard and respected. The forum offers a glimpse into an unknown world as well as a room with a view on the present and the future. Anyone able to speak on behalf of those living in the emerald forest and the deep blue sea is invited to join.
(01-14-2019, 08:13 AM)peter Wrote: He, like others, concluded tigers seem to push wolves out. This was the main argument their used to convince hunters in Sichote-Alin to protect tigers.
The reason hunters in RFE don't like wolves and prefer Amur tigers around is that wolves seems to diminish much more efficiently the populations of local herbivores. The toll Amur tiger is getting is … lets say (theoretically)...5-10% of total population of hoofed animals annually in the area while wolf packs in case of high density of wolves could exterminate... lets say... up to 20-30% (I forgot the exact numbers) of all herbivores in the area. The result is that hunters don't have what to hunt... They know that when Amur tiger inhabit the area grey wolves will keep away or avoid hunting in this particular area, so there will be more trophies and more meat for local hunters. Sometimes I red that scientists even intimidate the RFE hunters - "Do not poach tigers because the wolves will come and that will be twice worse for you!" And such intimidation in some cases is efficient.
The triangle between Amur tiger-dhole-grey wolf is interesting and somehow resembles the triangle lion-African wild dog-spotted hyena in Africa. Of course in the nature is not such a thing as 100% domination, but in general lions almost always dominate African wild dogs, African wild dogs usually (not always) dominate spotted hyenas because dogs packs have better coordinated pack organization and better team work than hyenas, while relations between lions and spotted hyenas could be in some cases quite messy and hostile with no clear domination.
In same way Amur tiger almost always dominate grey wolf, Northern grey wolves usually dominate dholes, while relations between dholes and tigers are more soffisticated, and they could be mutually bold to each other. I mean in the Nature if specie A dominates specie B and specie B dominates specie C that doesn't mean that specie A will dominate specie C.
In general I think for Northern grey wolves as largest canids is typical that they are aggressive towards other smaller canids like coyotes, foxes, jackals and in same time they are scared and terrified by the big fellines especially by the tigers. Dholes are opposite case, they are quite passive towards other canids obviously suggesting them as kind of "brothers" and quite bold and even said aggressive toward felines. For sure dholes don't panic in the face of tiger.
Here only 2 dholes chase away on the tree a leopard and the spotted cat obviously afraid of them:
If this tigress was weaker probably dholes could even attack her:
In same time old paintings from British India showing dhole packs killing tigers are probably highly exaggerated, there are no fresh scientific proves for such a cases:
*This image is copyright of its original author
Despite the drawing, I doubt a pack of dholes or any kind of canids want to mess with any male big cats. Maybe they will try to harass the females, but I'm really not sure about big males.
Despite the fact, that whoever filmed this footage is one of the worst possible for filming anything, we can see here how dholes are trying to harass tiger. Even though old stories are often exaggerated, sometimes in very gross way, there is often something to what those are based. Older tiger, injured tiger... dholes are for sure smart enough to notice if tiger is slower than normally etc. Maybe there are no cases, where tiger is killed, maybe then again some tiger in weakened condition has been in trouble.
What we know is, that they coexist and also some times there are situations, where they have... should I say disagreements :)
(01-14-2019, 08:13 AM)peter Wrote: He, like others, concluded tigers seem to push wolves out. This was the main argument their used to convince hunters in Sichote-Alin to protect tigers.
The reason hunters in RFE don't like wolves and prefer Amur tigers around is that wolves seems to diminish much more efficiently the populations of local herbivores. The toll Amur tiger is getting is … lets say (theoretically)...5-10% of total population of hoofed animals annually in the area while wolf packs in case of high density of wolves could exterminate... lets say... up to 20-30% (I forgot the exact numbers) of all herbivores in the area. The result is that hunters don't have what to hunt... They know that when Amur tiger inhabit the area grey wolves will keep away or avoid hunting in this particular area, so there will be more trophies and more meat for local hunters. Sometimes I red that scientists even intimidate the RFE hunters - "Do not poach tigers because the wolves will come and that will be twice worse for you!" And such intimidation in some cases is efficient.
The triangle between Amur tiger-dhole-grey wolf is interesting and somehow resembles the triangle lion-African wild dog-spotted hyena in Africa. Of course in the nature is not such a thing as 100% domination, but in general lions almost always dominate African wild dogs, African wild dogs usually (not always) dominate spotted hyenas because dogs packs have better coordinated pack organization and better team work than hyenas, while relations between lions and spotted hyenas could be in some cases quite messy and hostile with no clear domination.
In same way Amur tiger almost always dominate grey wolf, Northern grey wolves usually dominate dholes, while relations between dholes and tigers are more soffisticated, and they could be mutually bold to each other. I mean in the Nature if specie A dominates specie B and specie B dominates specie C that doesn't mean that specie A will dominate specie C.
In general I think for Northern grey wolves as largest canids is typical that they are aggressive towards other smaller canids like coyotes, foxes, jackals and in same time they are scared and terrified by the big fellines especially by the tigers. Dholes are opposite case, they are quite passive towards other canids obviously suggesting them as kind of "brothers" and quite bold and even said aggressive toward felines. For sure dholes don't panic in the face of tiger.
Here only 2 dholes chase away on the tree a leopard and the spotted cat obviously afraid of them:
If this tigress was weaker probably dholes could even attack her:
In same time old paintings from British India showing dhole packs killing tigers are probably highly exaggerated, there are no fresh scientific proves for such a cases:
*This image is copyright of its original author
Despite the drawing, I doubt a pack of dholes or any kind of canids want to mess with any male big cats. Maybe they will try to harass the females, but I'm really not sure about big males.
Despite the fact, that whoever filmed this footage is one of the worst possible for filming anything, we can see here how dholes are trying to harass tiger. Even though old stories are often exaggerated, sometimes in very gross way, there is often something to what those are based. Older tiger, injured tiger... dholes are for sure smart enough to notice if tiger is slower than normally etc. Maybe there are no cases, where tiger is killed, maybe then again some tiger in weakened condition has been in trouble.
What we know is, that they coexist and also some times there are situations, where they have... should I say disagreements :)
Is that a young tiger or what?
Tiger at least, whoever recorded that doesn´t tell more in description.
(01-14-2019, 08:13 AM)peter Wrote: He, like others, concluded tigers seem to push wolves out. This was the main argument their used to convince hunters in Sichote-Alin to protect tigers.
The reason hunters in RFE don't like wolves and prefer Amur tigers around is that wolves seems to diminish much more efficiently the populations of local herbivores. The toll Amur tiger is getting is … lets say (theoretically)...5-10% of total population of hoofed animals annually in the area while wolf packs in case of high density of wolves could exterminate... lets say... up to 20-30% (I forgot the exact numbers) of all herbivores in the area. The result is that hunters don't have what to hunt... They know that when Amur tiger inhabit the area grey wolves will keep away or avoid hunting in this particular area, so there will be more trophies and more meat for local hunters. Sometimes I red that scientists even intimidate the RFE hunters - "Do not poach tigers because the wolves will come and that will be twice worse for you!" And such intimidation in some cases is efficient.
The triangle between Amur tiger-dhole-grey wolf is interesting and somehow resembles the triangle lion-African wild dog-spotted hyena in Africa. Of course in the nature is not such a thing as 100% domination, but in general lions almost always dominate African wild dogs, African wild dogs usually (not always) dominate spotted hyenas because dogs packs have better coordinated pack organization and better team work than hyenas, while relations between lions and spotted hyenas could be in some cases quite messy and hostile with no clear domination.
In same way Amur tiger almost always dominate grey wolf, Northern grey wolves usually dominate dholes, while relations between dholes and tigers are more soffisticated, and they could be mutually bold to each other. I mean in the Nature if specie A dominates specie B and specie B dominates specie C that doesn't mean that specie A will dominate specie C.
In general I think for Northern grey wolves as largest canids is typical that they are aggressive towards other smaller canids like coyotes, foxes, jackals and in same time they are scared and terrified by the big fellines especially by the tigers. Dholes are opposite case, they are quite passive towards other canids obviously suggesting them as kind of "brothers" and quite bold and even said aggressive toward felines. For sure dholes don't panic in the face of tiger.
Here only 2 dholes chase away on the tree a leopard and the spotted cat obviously afraid of them:
If this tigress was weaker probably dholes could even attack her:
In same time old paintings from British India showing dhole packs killing tigers are probably highly exaggerated, there are no fresh scientific proves for such a cases:
*This image is copyright of its original author
Despite the drawing, I doubt a pack of dholes or any kind of canids want to mess with any male big cats. Maybe they will try to harass the females, but I'm really not sure about big males.
Despite the fact, that whoever filmed this footage is one of the worst possible for filming anything, we can see here how dholes are trying to harass tiger. Even though old stories are often exaggerated, sometimes in very gross way, there is often something to what those are based. Older tiger, injured tiger... dholes are for sure smart enough to notice if tiger is slower than normally etc. Maybe there are no cases, where tiger is killed, maybe then again some tiger in weakened condition has been in trouble.
What we know is, that they coexist and also some times there are situations, where they have... should I say disagreements :)
Is that a young tiger or what?
Tiger at least, whoever recorded that doesn´t tell more in description.
Tigress
The following 1 user Likes Pckts's post:1 user Likes Pckts's post • Panther
One more video. So I guess, that it is clear, that these species meet and interaction isn´t always friendly. Then again dholes are quite careful and obviously big respect at least what comes to healthy tigers, they seem to avoid too close range while harassing for sure tiger to the point of irritation in some situations. In this video tiger is quite calm though.
(01-14-2019, 08:13 AM)peter Wrote: He, like others, concluded tigers seem to push wolves out. This was the main argument their used to convince hunters in Sichote-Alin to protect tigers.
The reason hunters in RFE don't like wolves and prefer Amur tigers around is that wolves seems to diminish much more efficiently the populations of local herbivores. The toll Amur tiger is getting is … lets say (theoretically)...5-10% of total population of hoofed animals annually in the area while wolf packs in case of high density of wolves could exterminate... lets say... up to 20-30% (I forgot the exact numbers) of all herbivores in the area. The result is that hunters don't have what to hunt... They know that when Amur tiger inhabit the area grey wolves will keep away or avoid hunting in this particular area, so there will be more trophies and more meat for local hunters. Sometimes I red that scientists even intimidate the RFE hunters - "Do not poach tigers because the wolves will come and that will be twice worse for you!" And such intimidation in some cases is efficient.
The triangle between Amur tiger-dhole-grey wolf is interesting and somehow resembles the triangle lion-African wild dog-spotted hyena in Africa. Of course in the nature is not such a thing as 100% domination, but in general lions almost always dominate African wild dogs, African wild dogs usually (not always) dominate spotted hyenas because dogs packs have better coordinated pack organization and better team work than hyenas, while relations between lions and spotted hyenas could be in some cases quite messy and hostile with no clear domination.
In same way Amur tiger almost always dominate grey wolf, Northern grey wolves usually dominate dholes, while relations between dholes and tigers are more soffisticated, and they could be mutually bold to each other. I mean in the Nature if specie A dominates specie B and specie B dominates specie C that doesn't mean that specie A will dominate specie C.
In general I think for Northern grey wolves as largest canids is typical that they are aggressive towards other smaller canids like coyotes, foxes, jackals and in same time they are scared and terrified by the big fellines especially by the tigers. Dholes are opposite case, they are quite passive towards other canids obviously suggesting them as kind of "brothers" and quite bold and even said aggressive toward felines. For sure dholes don't panic in the face of tiger.
Here only 2 dholes chase away on the tree a leopard and the spotted cat obviously afraid of them:
If this tigress was weaker probably dholes could even attack her:
In same time old paintings from British India showing dhole packs killing tigers are probably highly exaggerated, there are no fresh scientific proves for such a cases:
*This image is copyright of its original author
Despite the drawing, I doubt a pack of dholes or any kind of canids want to mess with any male big cats. Maybe they will try to harass the females, but I'm really not sure about big males.
Despite the fact, that whoever filmed this footage is one of the worst possible for filming anything, we can see here how dholes are trying to harass tiger. Even though old stories are often exaggerated, sometimes in very gross way, there is often something to what those are based. Older tiger, injured tiger... dholes are for sure smart enough to notice if tiger is slower than normally etc. Maybe there are no cases, where tiger is killed, maybe then again some tiger in weakened condition has been in trouble.
What we know is, that they coexist and also some times there are situations, where they have... should I say disagreements :)
Is that a young tiger or what?
Tiger at least, whoever recorded that doesn´t tell more in description.
Somehow I missed to find this interesting video about tiger-dholes interaction posted by Shadow. @Jimmy , @Rishi what you think dholes are trying to do in this video? Any comments?
01-16-2019, 06:52 AM( This post was last modified: 01-16-2019, 10:55 AM by Rishi )
(01-15-2019, 10:11 PM)Shadow Wrote: One documentary about dholes for people interested.
There's an even better one, called "The Pack" also filmed in Bandipur. This one is a series with several short episodes. There's only English one i'd found on YouTube.
(01-16-2019, 04:36 AM)Wolverine Wrote: Somehow I missed to find this interesting video about tiger-dholes interaction posted by Shadow. @Jimmy , @Rishi what you think dholes are trying to do in this video? Any comments?
01-16-2019, 08:40 AM( This post was last modified: 01-16-2019, 09:55 AM by Wolverine )
Obviously dholes on that video are trying to irritate the tiger.
So, we already have 2 different videos, showing how small packs of dholes briefly encircle tigers. They stay at distance 5-6 meters from the cat. In the moment the tiger rush towards one of the dholes the dhole run away, than the dholes again encircle the tiger until finally all dogs move away. Probably if the tiger is very sick or very old they could dare to attack him but this are only speculations. We still didn't have any video from India showing real attack or bites as we have with spotted hyenas and lions in Africa.
Could be observed two extreme opossite opinions about dholes- Kipling and Karanth:
1. According Kipling dhole packs are something like supreme killing machine attacking Indian jungles as avalanche and destroing everything on its way, chasing and killing tigers with some suicidal passion to make heroical victory on the giant cat.
2. According famous Indian biologist Ulios Karanth the dholes are just small dogs who never dare to challenge a tiger and are often killed and hunted by tigers. All that old stories about extreme ferosity of the dholes are just legends and nothing more.
Probably the truth is somewhere in between, who knows. Its true that Karanth is biologist while Kipling was not, but in same time Karanth should also not place under suspicion and ignore the observations of Keneth Anderson, who was not less experienced than him in the jungle life.
(01-15-2019, 10:11 PM)Shadow Wrote: One documentary about dholes for people interested.
There's an even better one, called "The Pack" also filmed in Bandipur. This one is a series with several short episodes. There's only English one i'd found on YouTube.
I watched both and very interesting documentaries. I hope to see more about this documentary series, which you showed. Very interesting animals and a lot of new information for me, those kills by chasing prey to water and making attack there were absolutely fascinating to watch. Also that practicing with gaur and calf in that older documentary was interesting to see. These documentaries are so much more, that some short clips and nice to listen from people who have used a lot of time to study these animals as in these documentaries.
I have to admit, that I am one of those, who always have been looking more tigers, lions, leopards etc. and dhole is one species, which I have just kind of registered in a way "ok, it is there, so what" :) Luckily they weren´t lost to list of extinct animals....
Dholes (Cuon alpinus)
