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~~brotherbear~~ · 11-20-2014, 04:17 PM

I do not find it difficult to imagine a huge male tiger ambushing and killing a large mature male brown bear. The big tiger would obviously be very confident; likely feared by other tigers. Big Mature male brown bears are probably killed occassionally by tigers, although I feel certain that, even when Siberian wildlife was more heavily populated and tigers were not so rare, this was a very rare event. Tigers can in some cases, as has been mentioned on this site, grow to prehistoric dimentions, as does the brown bear on occassion. I will mention though, that there is a difference between an ambush attack and a face-to-face confrontation. But, I will agree that the tiger is, in my opinion, the greatest terrestrial predator on this planet.
I will be looking for that book on Amazon. Thank you Peter for the information.

Pckts · 11-21-2014, 12:59 AM

@~~brotherbear~~
"I will mention though, that there is a difference between an ambush attack and a face-to-face confrontation."

I think if we are talking about a large male bear and large male tiger, even if the attack starts as a ambush, there is probably no way the tiger is killing a bear that is larger than itself with one bite. I would imagine it is going to be a long drawn out battle. From seeing the confrontations in India (sloth bear is not a grizzly, I know, but still a bear none the less) it seems that the tiger doesn't so much sneak attack as it attacks it out of competition or spite. It seems to stalk, circle and look for openings, I would assume that the same would hold true for a grizzly. I doubt it is very easy to sneak up on a grizzly which is known for its sense of smell.

peter · 11-21-2014, 09:18 AM

TIGERS AND BEARS IN RUSSIA TODAY - VII

I think PC is close here, Brotherbear. Although an ambush would be an initial advantage, it wouldn't be decisive in an encounter between a male Amur tiger and a male Ussuri bear. The reason is adult brown bears, and males in particular, usually have a thick layer of muscles in the area a tiger would target (the neck). A tiger wouldn't be able to get to the vertebrae with one bite in a large male brown bear. Although every discussion on this topic is speculative by nature, there's plenty of circumstantial evidence to suggest it would take a lot more to kill an adult male brown bear. I propose to use two examples.

1 - SYSOEV

Sysoev is one of the very few who saw a number of fights between adult tigers and adult brown bears. In one case, the fight ended undecided. In another, a male tiger killed an adult female and in two others the male tigers were defeated. At least one of the two male tigers was killed. Many think this incident happened in 1960. Sysoev later wrote a story about an encounter between a male tiger and a male bear called 'Amba'. Although the story probably is fictional, chances are he used things he actually saw. I'll post the story in some time. For now, I'll try to paint the picture that emerged from the story.

Sysoev wrote about the life of a male tiger in eastern Russia. I'm not sure, but I think the tiger was a youngish adult. He wrote how the tiger hunted, killed and ate a wolf. Later, he killed a male Himalayan black bear. In winter, the tiger had to walk long distances to find the animals he preferred most (deer and wild boars). Some of the animals he killed were confiscated by a large male brown bear. The bear was so large, the tiger wouldn't have had a chance in a fight. He had no option but to accept it. But when another, slightly smaller, male tried to rob him of a wild boar he had killed, the tiger decided to defend his kill.

The bear was a large male, but weightwise below par as a result of a lack of food. Maybe the bear was a 'Schatun' and maybe it was just after hibernation. I don't remember. Anyhow. The tiger first threatened the bear, who wasn't impressed. Then a fight started. In the first stages, the tiger was able to get behind the bear. Every time he succeeded, the neck was targeted. In spite of the severe wounds he inflicted, he couldn't get to the vertebrae because the bear was able to get out of the grip of the tiger using his weight.

After some time, the tiger tired and the bear got his chance. Although he crushed the front paw of the bear, the tiger wasn't able to break the hold of the bear. He died as a result of suffocation. Wild Amur tigers killed by wild Ussuri bears, as far as I know, seldom perish as a result of a crushing blow or crushed ribs. Most are strangled, which means the bear in question had to be a strong animal. Chances are it was a male in most cases. This is one reason why I don't buy the general view on no engagements between male tigers and male bears, but that's another story.

When Sysoev was director of the Chabarowsk Natural History Museum, a diorama was constructed. It shows a male brown bear and a male Amur tiger engaged in battle. Both photographs (the second was posted to show both animals were large) were first posted by Grahh, who posted on AVA some years ago. He now has his own site called 'Shaggy God':

*This image is copyright of its original author

Is a male brown bear capable of performing the feat described above? I think so. Male Amur tigers average 420-430 pounds, whereas male Ussuri bears average just below 600 pounds, with some well over that mark. A tiger would need a lot of skill and power to overcome a bear of that size. When a bear, on the other hand, gets a hold, it would be difficult to break out of it.

He's another photograph of a captive male Ussuri bear. It shows a large and robust animal, well capable of engaging an adult male Amur tiger. The photograph was first posted by Warsaw, also a former AVA-poster:

*This image is copyright of its original author

One more to finish with. The bear below was killed by a hunter. The angle used, as always in hunter photographs, shows a large bear. I don't think it was exceptional, but it shows male Ussuri bears are robust animals not to be trifled with:

*This image is copyright of its original author

2 - BART SCHLEYER

Bart Schleyer worked for the WCS (the Siberian Tiger Project). In the USA, he often went out on his own. Alaska and Canada. Wild country. One fateful day, he was killed in Alaska. They think it was a brown bear, but wolves also used his body to feed on. Some time after his death, an article was published. One could also say it was a kind of obituary. I posted parts of it on this thread (see post 54).

Schleyer knew about Amur tigers and bears. He often followed the tracks of tigers in the snow. At times, he found a dead bear. Schleyer was able to get to the story in most cases. He said most bear killers were experienced male tigers who had about a hundred pounds on their victims. Every attack was a hit and all bears were killed with a bite to the base of the neck. The bears killed in that way, however, were immatures or females and they faced a heavier male tiger.

Most bears killed in this way died without a fight. In a number of cases, however, there had been a fight. Schleyer didn't offer details, but my guess is the fights were a result of the size of the bear. The larger the bear, the more difficult it is to kill with a single bite. I remember two cases discussed in other articles. In both, the females targeted were estimated between 150-200 kg. (330-440 pounds) and both only succumbed after a prolonged fight.

Adult brown bears, as was stated before, usually have a thick layer of large muscles in the neck. This means it's very unlikely even a large male tiger would be able to kill a large bear with one bite. This assumption was confirmed in the two cases mentioned. Many think the fights Schleyer mentioned were a result of ambushes gone wrong. My guess is the bears targeted were too large to kill with a single bite.

Anyhow. Here's part of the article posted before again. It's about the part in orange:

*This image is copyright of its original author

3 - AMBUSHES, OPEN FIGHTS, RUMOURS AND TRAINERS

Many think a tiger's best chance in a fight is an ambush, but Clyde Beatty wrote his large male Russian bear usually got whipped when he attacked the Amur tigresses. This means tigers apparently do quite well in encounters. After a number of bad experiences, his Russian bear decided for a different approach. The tigress he finally killed was ... ambushed. The attack also was remarkable in that he didn't bite the tigress multiple times, as bears often do, but held on. It was this, Beatty thought, that saved him. At that time, Beatty thought bears wouldn't stand a chance in a fight with a tiger.

Later, he changed his opinion, but every encounter he reported on was between a large bear and a small tiger. He said tigers usually spent themselves quickly and added a lot more that underlined there was no love lost between Beatty and tigers. Could have been a result of a bad experience when he was young. Beatty was targeted by a tigress and saved by the bell, I mean a male lion. After that experience, tigers were done for.

Beatty, to underline his opinion, reported on two fights between his female brown bear 'Doris' and two tigers (a male and a female) in different interviews. Doris killed both within a few months while defending herself. Beatty talked about it at every opportunity, but forgot to add Doris, at about 700 pounds, was as large as they come, whereas the two tigers were half her size or less (...). I saw a photograph of Doris. I wouldn't know about the 700 pounds, but there's no question she was a very large female.

Beatty, because he wrote books and knew about public relations, influenced public opinion. The consequence is many still think tigers quickly spend themselves and stand no chance in a fight against a 'calculator' (all lions and bears). I'm not going to discuss the crap he offered, but I will say many of his 'views' were a result of distortions born from what I consider to be a strong dislike.

I talked to many trainers over the years. They were long interviews with dedicated and unbiased people who had worked with big cats and bears for many years. I also talked to a director of a facility situated in the southern part of the Netherlands. In the facility, a kind of training school, many big cats, brown bears and polar bears were trained. Most were sold to circuses when they had 'graduated'. The facility featured in a documentary I saw. The director was Klant Hagenbeck. He was related to the other Hagenbecks and as experienced as they come. What did he and the others had to say about big cats and bears?

One is there is no love lost between tigers and brown bears. Two is brown bears, in contrast to what many think, are calculators. Three is they, in a one-on-one, often suffer against a big cat of similar size, especially tigers. The reason is tigers are faster, more agile and more aggressive. Four is brown bears, although powerful, very intelligent and confident, often overestimate themselves. After a beating, they, as a result of pride, often try to get even in some way. Many trainers said adult brown bears try to surprise (ambush) the tiger they hate. Sometimes, they succeed and sometimes they pay.

Five is the rumours about endurance are just that. Tigers are able to fight for a very long time. The problem is they, as aggressors, often overheat, especially against heavier and agile opponents. This is the reason they need short breaks. This is different from 'spending themselves quickly'. One could say tigers are 'interval-fighters' and be right.

At times, a bear is able to use a break. One reason is they have the energy needed (defence is less consuming than offence). Another is bears are exceedingly intelligent animals. They know when to act or not. When you forget to lock the cage, they will know and let you visit them. It will be your last visit. Before you go to the land of no return, they will have had a lot of fun. In this respect, they are close to (male) lions.

Six is tigers and bears almost compare to tigers and lions. Size often is important and defence is less costly than offence. Ambushes are the best way to conserve energy. An even better way is to avoid an all-out.

All in all, I think Krechmar could be about right regarding wild Amur tigers and Ussuri brown bears. He said not one dominates the other in a fysical fight. Large male bears can displace a male tiger, but it doesn't happen often. The reason they succeed at times is they, as non-hunters, need the protein because of their size. They are willing to risk injury, whereas tigers can hunt again. But Amur tigers are vindictive animals, many say. At times, males clash. The outcome of a fight between an average-sized male tiger and an averaged-sized male Ussuri bear, I think, is anybody's guess. This, regarding the difference in weight (430 vs 590 pounds), says something about the ability of an Amur tiger. A real big bear, as Sysoev said, would get it his way more often than not, but there are not that many. These 'Equalizers' are few and far between.

The only thing I really agree with regarding both animals is inborn animosity. That's why the bear who escaped the Canadian facility decided to demolish the tigress first before returning home and that's the reason why the tiger who killed a cagehand in Beatty's circus decided to pay brown bear 'Doris' a visit before continuing his escape. Both tigers were killed quickly, but the bears had a distinct advantage in size.

Also remember wild tiger 'Boris'. He was one of five youngsters recently released into the wild. All five were about 18 months of age when they were released and all had collars, enabling researchers to monitor their progress. At first, the researchers were happy to find the youngsters tried to avoid brown bears. But the peace didn't last long. Tiger 'Boris', in spite of his young age, recently killed a bear. I don't know what bear was killed and how it was done, but it tells you all you want to know about tigers and bears.

A very long post, which wasn't intended. My apologies. I just wanted to say it's always a bit different than you think it is, Brotherbear. That's why you have to use authentic information only to get to an opinion. An experienced trainer also has something of interest to offer. Also remember opinions differ. Same for researchers. In some regions, tigers and bears avoid each other. In others, they do not. Tigers and bears, for that reason, is tricky business.

As for ambushes. I hope you now know tigers aren't the only ones who specialize in ambushes. Bears are pretty good at it as well. Ambushes save energy, but not when the opponent is a large and strong animal. It's an initial advantage, but not decisive in a fight between large males. It is, in other words, not very likely the large male bear killed in the Sungari River Basin was killed in an ambush. My guess is there would have been a prolonged fight and the tiger was able to win it. One reason could have been his size. Maybe the Sungari River tiger also was an 'Equalizer'.

GuateGojira · 11-21-2014, 11:15 AM

Fascinating posts Peter, as is usual in you.

http://www.brothersofthebow.com/html/solospirits.html

On the tiger-vs-bear issue, I think you have hit the nail several times here. I still think that normally, males will avoid each other, but like the accounts of Jankoskii and Kaplanov stated, sometimes they do fight and tigers are able to win.

However, it also suggest that tigers need to have some "parity" on the size issue. The large bear killed was probably no less than 300 kg, and we know that they reach up to 320 kg in the Ussuri region. However, the tiger was possibly also no less than 300 kg, according with Jankovski, so the close the weight, more advantage to the tiger.

I also have another case of a tigress killing two bears, here is the table:
[img]http://i.imgur.com/z29HGPh.png" class="lozad max-img-size" alt="" title="">

*This image is copyright of its original author

The document is a thesis of Dr Clayton Miller (see the attached file) and he has published other two documents born from this thesis. The tigress that killed those two bears (Pt99) was a 6-8 years old female of 130 kg. Again, it seems that size parity seems to support tiger victory.

Attached Files
.pdf

Miller-2012_Amur tiger energy requeriments_Thesis.pdf (Size: 582.68 KB / Downloads: 11)

GuateGojira · 11-21-2014, 11:28 AM

About the tigress Pt99, it was named "Christina", here are some pictures after the poaching attempt:

*This image is copyright of its original author

I have the document about the case, but is too large to upload it here (4.69 MB). I will try to post the 4 pages of the document the Saturday.

~~brotherbear~~ · 11-21-2014, 11:58 AM

Peter, you are right, that was a long post, and I'm happy that is was. Very informative and mind-changing. I am seeing clearly now that, without so much hostility in the past on sites like AVA and similar, myself and others might have learned a great deal a lot sooner. I read every word of your post, gladly.
A fight between a brown bear and a tiger of near-equal size it appears, can easily go either way. This is a lot different than the lion and the spotted hyena "war" where the hyena needs numbers against even one lion.
We must keep in mind that each animal is an individual. One bear might discover tiger tracks and run from them while another bear would follow them. I find it interesting that, for the most part there is understandable mutual avoidance, there is also known animosity between brown bears and tigers. No clear-cut picture.
My old friend, a one-time AVA poster ( charger1 ) put it best, I believe: "tiger vs brown bear is like the unstopable force meeting the immovable object; anything can happen."
Guate, I'm not really good with charts normally, but I believe I can read this one. The same tiger PT99 that killed two adult bears also killed four adult wild boar, two boars and two sows. Incredible. Thank you both for this mind-changing information.
*I had to go to "science made easy" to check Christina's weight - less than 300 pounds. So, going against my former beliefs, at weight parity, it appears that the odds are in favor of the tiger.

Amnon242 · 11-21-2014, 12:54 PM

(11-14-2014, 11:58 AM)Amnon242 Wrote:
(11-03-2014, 08:11 AM)peter Wrote: CAPTIVE MALE AMUR TIGER DVUR KRALOVY

This photograph has been posted before. Although it belongs in the board on captive big cats, I posted it here as well. The reason is a number of measurements were known. Same for the weight:

203,00 cm. - Head and body length
084,00 cm. - Head circumference
190,00 kg. - Weight

Conclusion. This is about as average as it gets. Impressive at any rate:

*This image is copyright of its original author

I saw him...this tiger is called Jupiter and he is from ZOO Dvur Kralove in Czech. In the zoo there is a table which says that Jupiter was 196 kg when weighted.

Jupiter is tall, but lean. There is another male amur in that zoo, tiger called Skip. Skip is very old, he was 17 when i saw him (one year ago, Jupiter was 7), but still much, much bigger than Jupiter. Tall as Jupiter buch much more robust...a bear-like creature.

Interesting thing is that a son of Skip was 140 kg when he was 1 year old.

I have to apologize for wrong information. This tiger is not 196 kg Jupiter (btw I don´t know what was the age of Jupiter in the time of weighing). This tiger is called Semjon and he was weighted at the age of 17 (in 2009, he died in 2010). Btw height of this tiger was 105 cm.

Question: Semjon weighted 190 kg at the age of 17. What could be his prime weight?

http://www.ahaonline.cz/clanek/musite-ve...-tygr.html

peter · 11-21-2014, 12:56 PM

(11-21-2014, 11:15 AM)'GuateGojira' Wrote: Fascinating posts Peter, as is usual in you. http://www.brothersofthebow.com/html/solospirits.html

On the tiger-vs-bear issue, I think you have hit the nail several times here. I still think that normally, males will avoid each other, but like the accounts of Jankoskii and Kaplanov stated, sometimes they do fight and tigers are able to win.

However, it also suggest that tigers need to have some "parity" on the size issue. The large bear killed was probably no less than 300 kg, and we know that they reach up to 320 kg in the Ussuri region. However, the tiger was possibly also no less than 300 kg, according with Jankovski, so the close the weight, more advantage to the tiger.

I also have another case of a tigress killing two bears, here is the table:
[img]http://i.imgur.com/z29HGPh.png" class="lozad max-img-size" alt="" title="">

*This image is copyright of its original author

The document is a thesis of Dr Clayton Miller (see the attached file) and he has published other two documents born from this thesis. The tigress that killed those two bears (Pt99) was a 6-8 years old female of 130 kg. Again, it seems that size parity seems to support tiger victory.

Many thanks for the correction on Schleyer, Guate. These long posts require a lot of time. I guess I was tired. My post has been edited already.

The document you attached is very interesting. It definitely is the end of the assumption only male Amur tigers hunt bears, as many have stated. Tigresses could be just as active.

I've 4 questions:

1 - The weights at the top of the table you posted. My guess is they are average weights for the animals mentioned. If not, is anything known on the actual weight of the male wild boars and the female brown bear the tigress killed? Are they sure the animals were adults?

2 - Isn't 'Christina' the tigress who attacked a hunter after she'd been shot and wounded? If so, she made a splendid recovery.

3 - Is 'Christina' the heaviest tigress on record? I thought there was only one other tigress of 130 kg. ('Maria Ivanova').

4 - A few years ago, Miquelle said they were working on a new document on Amur tigers. That document would have new information on (the size of) the Amur tigers captured in recent years. So far, I didn't see anything. Did I miss something? If nothing, as I suspect, was published, would you be so kind as to contact Miquelle?

Roflcopters · 11-21-2014, 01:11 PM

Peter, I remember this event with Christina..

https://s3.amazonaws.com/WCSResources/fi...%2FYYqI%3D

here's two pages but only the last page is worth reading.

peter · 11-21-2014, 02:18 PM

brotherbear\ dateline='\'1416553125' Wrote: Peter, you are right, that was a long post, and I'm happy that is was. Very informative and mind-changing. I am seeing clearly now that, without so much hostility in the past on sites like AVA and similar, myself and others might have learned a great deal a lot sooner. I read every word of your post, gladly.
A fight between a brown bear and a tiger of near-equal size it appears, can easily go either way. This is a lot different than the lion and the spotted hyena "war" where the hyena needs numbers against even one lion.
We must keep in mind that each animal is an individual. One bear might discover tiger tracks and run from them while another bear would follow them. I find it interesting that, for the most part there is understandable mutual avoidance, there is also known animosity between brown bears and tigers. No clear-cut picture.
My old friend, a one-time AVA poster ( charger1 ) put it best, I believe: "tiger vs brown bear is like the unstopable force meeting the immovable object; anything can happen."
Guate, I'm not really good with charts normally, but I believe I can read this one. The same tiger PT99 that killed two adult bears also killed four adult wild boar, two boars and two sows. Incredible. Thank you both for this mind-changing information.

*I had to go to "science made easy" to check Christina's weight - less than 300 pounds. So, going against my former beliefs, at weight parity, it appears that the odds are in favor of the tiger.

TIGERS AND BEARS IN RUSSIA TODAY - VIII

Thanks for the encouragement, Brotherbear. You're not that bad yourself in that you seem to have a genuine interest in information. This is what we need to get to a good debate. A debate isn't about winning or losing, but about information and dialogue is a condition to get there.

As for the chances in a fight. Sludskij, a great Russian biologist, once made a kind of chance chart which was based on everything he knew. It was Grahh again, I think, who first published the chart. From memory:

Favorite in the 050-100 kg. category - tiger
Favorite in the 100-150 kg. category - about 50-50
Favorite in the 150-200 kg. category - tiger
Favorite in the 200-300 kg. category - bear

I don't think the chart was ever published, but most biologists knew about it and agreed. My guess is the chart relates to the chances of male tigers and male bears in four different categories (and not females), but I'm not sure.

A short explanation regarding the last two categories. In the 150-200 kg. category, tigers are favorites because they have more experience with hunting and killing. Most male bears in this category are immature animals with little or no experience in these departments. In the heavyweight category of 200 kg. and over (440 pounds and over), bears are favorites. There are three reasons:

1 - Most male bears in this category are adult animals with some experience.

2 - Male bears operating in this category have larger muscles, especially in the area targeted by tigers (the neck). At near-similar length, brown bears are much more robust. This is an advantage in a fight in that they should be able to take more damage from an animal with larger and stronger canines. I wouldn't know if it would result in more strength, though. Pikunov and some others thought it would be quite close. My guess is bears are unmatched in pushing, striking, embracing and balance (referring to the spine, the constructron of the pelvis and the position of the hind legs), whereas tigers would be close or ever a bit better in pulling and holding (paws). Tigers usually also are a bit longer, meaning they are able to work their way down. This, I think, could be a slight advantage.

3 - Full-grown male Ussuri bears, at 580-595 pounds (average), are quite a bit heavier than full-grown male Amur tigers (420-430 pounds), meaning they are able to roll out of the grip of a tiger. Not the other way round, I think.

Tigers, as true hunters, can't afford the get much over, say, 225 kg. (494 pounds), because they would pay by losing speed, agility and endurance. Brown bears, on the other hand, need weight in order to be able to compete with other males. A large size will result in more access to females. Furthermore, male brown bears are not hunters, but omnivores earning a bit extra by displacing big cats whenever possible. A large size helps when you are a pro in displacement and it also helps in confrontations. The flipside is a male brown bear needs more time to get to his potential. A male is able to reproduce at 4-5 years of age, but he is usually considered fully adult at 8-12 and continues to put on weight after that age. The skull continues to grow (especially in zygomatic width) until 20 years or slightly over.

Russian biologists concluded male Ussuri bears would win 'on points' in this category. I agree in general terms, but every individual is different. Furthermore, we have to remember brown bears show a lot of seasonal variation in weight. A prime male Ussuri brown bear of 650 pounds might lose as much as 150-200 pounds during hibernation. I don't think he would be bothered by tigers in summer, autumn or winter, but it could be a different story in early spring.

Just suppose a prime male Amur tiger of 440 pounds has had a nice winter with plenty of porc. Suppose he doesn't like a particular male bear because he has been displaced by him more than once. Also suppose the male tiger has a good memory and a nasty character. Let's say he's as vindictive as they come. Finally suppose it is that bear who is on his way to rob that particular tiger in early spring, when the tiger is over 450 pounds and very close to the bear in weight. Mutual avoidance? I don't think so.

Russian biologist Bromlej once found a brown bear killed by a tigress in spring. The bear, at 158 cm. in length, was 170 kg. It didn't look good for bear-posters. The debate started. The bear was a very fat cub, some tried. The weight was just an estimate, others said. The tigress was a very large one, they thought.

I tried to make a case for an adult female or a young adult male bear. The reason was weight. A brown bear often loses 20-30% of his weight during hibernation. A bear of about 170 kg. shortly after hibernation (the bear Bromlej found was killed in early May), for this reason, probably was (well) over 200 kg. before he or she (Bromlej didn't say if the bear was a male or a female) entered hibernation. This argument, of course, was dismissed and no conclusion was reached.

What to say in the end? It is an undisputed fact a tigress killed and ate a brown bear heavier than she was in early spring. A singular incident or not? Could a male tiger get to a similar result? We don't know, but in tigers and bears you never know. Eternal enemies.

Pckts · 11-21-2014, 09:15 PM

Nature doesn't make "meak" predators.
Its impossible to say who is "stronger". A Bear or Tiger at parity will each have their own advantages, neither will be the victor every time. Give one of them 150+ lb advantage, the outcome is much more in favor of the larger creature. Its the same for any predator I believe.

Great posts from everybody. TFS

peter · 11-22-2014, 10:12 AM

RADAR NET KEEPS TIGERS PROTECTED

This is very interesting. In the USA, a wireless network of low-power radars is being developed to track everything that moves in or out of the forest. Furthermore, they are working on an infrared system that sounds the alarm when it detects an intruder:

http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg22429963.300-radar-net-protects-tigers-and-keeps-them-neighbourly.html#.VHAaQst0zs1

New dimensions in protection and very good news for tigers and all other animals in protected reserves.

peter · 11-22-2014, 10:50 AM

(11-21-2014, 12:54 PM)'Amnon242' Wrote:
(11-14-2014, 11:58 AM)'Amnon242' Wrote:
(11-03-2014, 08:11 AM)'peter' Wrote: CAPTIVE MALE AMUR TIGER DVUR KRALOVY

This photograph has been posted before. Although it belongs in the board on captive big cats, I posted it here as well. The reason is a number of measurements were known. Same for the weight:

203,00 cm. - Head and body length
084,00 cm. - Head circumference
190,00 kg. - Weight

Conclusion. This is about as average as it gets. Impressive at any rate:

*This image is copyright of its original author

I saw him...this tiger is called Jupiter and he is from ZOO Dvur Kralove in Czech. In the zoo there is a table which says that Jupiter was 196 kg when weighted.

Jupiter is tall, but lean. There is another male amur in that zoo, tiger called Skip. Skip is very old, he was 17 when i saw him (one year ago, Jupiter was 7), but still much, much bigger than Jupiter. Tall as Jupiter buch much more robust...a bear-like creature.

Interesting thing is that a son of Skip was 140 kg when he was 1 year old.

I have to apologize for wrong information. This tiger is not 196 kg Jupiter (btw I don´t know what was the age of Jupiter in the time of weighing). This tiger is called Semjon and he was weighted at the age of 17 (in 2009, he died in 2010). Btw height of this tiger was 105 cm.

Question: Semjon weighted 190 kg at the age of 17. What could be his prime weight?

http://www.ahaonline.cz/clanek/musite-ve...-tygr.html

Semjon seemed very fit for his age. Not often seen in captive Amur tigers. After their prime, captive tigers often quickly lose muscle and weight. Perrault once said old tigers often are thin as a rail just before they go. I agree. Another thing I noticed is captive Amur tigers often succumb to cancer (pancreas in many cases) just after their prime. Only few reach 15 years in captivity.

V. Mazak measured and weighed two adult male Amur tigers in the Prague Zoo. One male (220 cm. in head and body length) was 192 kg. just after death (at age 11). His son died at 7 years of age. At 201 cm. in head and body, he only weighed 128 kg. just after death. Both male Amur tigers, as a result of disease, were in bad shape when they died.

V. Mazak thought the largest male could have been 250-260 kg. in his prime, but that was based on a guesstimate. I didn't find anything on the weight of his son in his prime.

In captivity, adult male tigers usually range between 0,7-1,3 kg. per cm. in head and body length. In large subspecies, males have about 1 kg. per cm. in head and body length. Captive male Amur tigers often are a bit over that mark. Eagle Raptor said most captive male Amur tigers would be about 480 pounds or a bit more.

Regarding the question. It's next to impossible to say anything about Semjon's weight when he was in his prime. It would help when you would be able to find a bit more. My guess is Semjon must have featured in a few pictures when he was in his prime. Maybe some of the keepers can tell you a bit more.

peter · 11-22-2014, 01:02 PM

INFORMATION ON DR. COLIN P. GROVES

Here's a bit more on Colin Groves, who was mentioned in the post dedicated to Dr. Vratislav Mazak (post 242). Mazak, by the way, is also mentioned in the overview below. Both described Homo ergaster:

http://www.worldwidewhoswhoreleases.com/press-release/professor-colin-peter-groves-recognized-by-worldwide-branding-for-excellence-in

~~brotherbear~~ · 11-22-2014, 07:02 PM

Peter says: ~~Russian biologists concluded male Ussuri bears would win 'on points' in this category. I agree in general terms, but every individual is different. Furthermore, we have to remember brown bears show a lot of seasonal variation in weight. A prime male Ussuri brown bear of 650 pounds might lose as much as 150-200 pounds during hibernation. I don't think he would be bothered by tigers in summer, autumn or winter, but it could be a different story in early spring. Just suppose a prime male Amur tiger of 440 pounds has had a nice winter with plenty of porc. Suppose he doesn't like a particular male bear because he has been displaced by him more than once. Also suppose the male tiger has a good memory and a nasty character. Let's say he's as vindictive as they come. Finally suppose it is that bear who is on his way to rob that particular tiger in early spring, when the tiger is over 450 pounds and very close to the bear in weight. Mutual avoidance? I don't think so. Russian biologist Bromlej once found a brown bear killed by a tigress in spring. The bear, at 158 cm. in length, was 170 kg. It didn't look good for bear-posters. The debate started. The bear was a very fat cub, some tried. The weight was just an estimate, others said. The tigress was a very large one, they thought. I tried to make a case for an adult female or a young adult male bear. The reason was weight. A brown bear often loses 20-30% of his weight during hibernation. A bear of about 170 kg. shortly after hibernation (the bear Bromlej found was killed in early May), for this reason, probably was (well) over 200 kg. before he or she (Bromlej didn't say if the bear was a male or a female) entered hibernation. This argument, of course, was dismissed and no conclusion was reached. What to say in the end? It is an undisputed fact a tigress killed and ate a brown bear heavier than she was in early spring. A singular incident or not? Could a male tiger get to a similar result? We don't know, but in tigers and bears you never know. Eternal enemies. ----This makes sense. A grizzly emerging from hibernation is hungry and bad-tempered. This is possibly the most likely time that he might grow bold and challenge a big male tiger over a kill. That and in late Autumn when the bear is desperate to gain weight. In early spring, the brown bear might be near weight parity with the tiger. Too bad such a clash has never been caught on film, but simply catching an Amur tiger on film at all is in itself an accomplisment these days.

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