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Size comparisons
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 (09-02-2018, 08:41 PM)Vegeta San Wrote: Really nice comparison, Jimmy. But the gaur you used isn't that impressive of the species.This gaur is no doubt a massive specimen, but first u need a complete specimen with legs till hooves clearly showing to get an idea how tall it really is, with this photo^ it can be only guessed and second all the bovines should be postured similarly like @Rishi said, check that all the bovines are in pretty similar gait even their legs position are similar except for water buffalo which i could not find. Thank you for feedback! (09-02-2018, 11:00 PM)Rishi Wrote: While you're at it, why not add this big guy & complete the set...hahaha, i am afraid it will be a long list then and takes lot of time maybe after sometime and maybe including for example moose and eland as well, actually i have had banteng and wisent in mind when i was at it. This^ Asiatic buffalo looks good, i am looking exactly for side view even the head posture, i will check other in my another computer i think i have one. Rishi Wrote:@JimmyBut IMO wild yaks are not long legged like gaurs and if even so it is similar height to that of gaur this creature should be more massive by default. Already, wild water buffalo with less shoulder height and length are suppose to weigh simialr to gaur. I see the simialr case also aplies to wisent, all sources say american bison-esp. wood bison as the largest but shoulder height of wisent is given taller, near to those of gaur and it's rump stands taller to any wild bovine IMO, yet it is suppose to third than the two bison species . How does this proportion work?? I wonder these shoulder height of wisent and wild yaks are guess estimates.  (09-02-2018, 06:42 PM)Jimmy Wrote: Check out another visual comparision i just made Could you draw a lines at points you decide in the necks of Asiatic water buffalo and gaur and increase the scale of images by cutting out the cape and Yak from the left, because for more precise measurement the images they have to be enough big. But Rishi is right, the position of water buffalo's head is better to be same as the gaur. Actually cape distract our attention from the main question - gaur-water buffalo comparison to assess vulnerability for tiger predation. One day you even could make comparative images of American and European bisons, they should have very different shapes.
From 5 animals could you leave the 3 from the right - gaur, bison and water and cut 2 from the left. But the gaur should be the exactly same size in your monitor as previous time (post #155) when we compared him with the cape buffalo. So gaur need to be enlarged to same size in your monitor as in post 155. Cape is the base, but this time will be invisible.
@Wolverine here you go feel free to analyze
 *This image is copyright of its original author another one involving only two wild water buffalo and gaur and the line drawn of same size on the neck  *This image is copyright of its original author check this out as well with banteng and wisent  *This image is copyright of its original author
Thanks Jimmy.
On your recent image where water buffalo and gaur stand in same positions both herbivores have exactly same diameter of the necks while the African cape buffalo posses a bit more robust neck. The numbers I'm getting for average diameter of necks of the tree herbivores are: gaur - 49,1 cm (19,33 inches) wild water buffalo - 49,1 cm African cape buffalo - 53,77 cm (21,14 inches). So the two Asiatic bovines are equaly easy (or uneasy) to be subjected to neck strangulation while the cape is harder. All big herbivores with exception probably of elephant - rhino, water buffalo and gaur could be hamstringed. To make a neck strangulation of Indian rhino is capable only a subadult T-rex. Asiatic buffalo and gaur could be strangulated with exception probably of large bulls as mentioned PC. I seriously doubt that an adult male African cape buffalo could be strangulated by neck bite in standing position by tiger-lion sized cat unless the animal is kicked upsite down on the ground by other cats in the pride in helpless position.
That European bison on the right is wonderful.
Banteng on the left has kinda similar neck structure to gaur, if bantengs inhabited Central India they probably will be no problem for the Royal Bengal tiger, but for smaller Indo-Chinese tigers they are probably the same challenge as gaurs are for Bengals. Wolverine Wrote:That European bison on the right is wonderful. Yeah bantengs seem to have smallest neck than others of their size. The challenge for a tiger I see is not if they can latch onto the suffocating grip but rather getting into that position for a throat hold, If they get it they will latch onto it. that is likely possible in ambush situation but even then if the bovine realises it on time it could go either way meaning a cat could withdraw. remember bantengs have a more forward pointing horns and curved wide than those of gaur whose horn go more straight upwards and tilts slightly backwards at the tip. This banteng image I used is bit unimpressive there are other robust images but due to different posture I did not use. Wolverine Wrote:On your recent image where water buffalo and gaur stand in same positions both herbivores have exactly same diameter of the necks while the African cape buffalo posses a bit more robust neck. The numbers I'm getting for average diameter of necks of the tree herbivores are Yeah that looks good but as we had discussed earlier the Cape buffalo has wrinkly skin folds running along their neck, which adds to the thickness when seen from profile, this again might be deterrent against predation, anyway I say it's a slight thicker neck girth for cape buffaloes. Wolverine Wrote:Asiatic buffalo and gaur could be strangulated with exception probably of large bulls as mentioned PC. I seriously doubt that an adult male African cape buffalo could be strangulated by neck bite in standing position by tiger-lion sized cat unless the animal is kicked upsite down on the ground by other cats in the pride in helpless position Of course it is the bulls that posseses a real problem, a female at around 400- 600 kgs of any species falls within a prey zone for big cats.Not easy as unlike even large antelopes which might be similar in size but has a more spindly long legs, are light footed that relies on running, Bovines on the contrary still show aggression, has wider horns and robust short limbs so are hard to pull down. A big cat still needs flexibilty for a successful attack even for females. I don't know if strangulation is performed with any greater regularity on bulls of either water buffalo or gaur but more vedios show they start chewing from back or behind when the bovines are still alive and after they weaken go for a neck bite. This is for sure not because of difficulty on strangulation but because frontal attack is just too risky. Seen a video of even a nilgai attacked this way by a lioness and a sambar by a tigress.
Obviously gaur and the wild water buffalo have quite similar robustness of the neck and are equally vulnerable (unvulnerable) for neck strangulation. Then developes the question which of these two herbivores is harder to be killed by tiger.
Advantages of the gaur Gaur is much larger and heavier, actually the largest wild cattle in the world, so probably is the more powerful of the two bovines because usually larger body possess more rough power and energy. Advantages of the wild water buffalo 1. Wild buffalo seems to has better group defense, the animals of the herd protect each other more actively and efficiently. 2. Wild buffalo is more aggressive of the two species, only for one year in Kaziranga buffaloes probably kill more people than gaurs in all India. So, as a part of the herd I think wild buffalo is harder to be killed by tiger than gaur. But if we talk about solitary animals probably for tiger is harder to kill solitary bull gaur than solitary male buffalo because gaur is much larger. @Jimmy, maybe we can experiment with this image left by @Rishi in order to assess is it possible for tiger to strangulate an adult male gaur or male water buffalo. If we imagine that herbivore's neck on the image has a vertical diameter of 49 cm (the larger of the diameters) probably the tiger's head and jaws could be adjusted and assessed how deep will reach inside the flesh, but from the bottom side where is the throat.  *This image is copyright of its original author
(09-04-2018, 07:08 AM)Jimmy Wrote: I don't know if strangulation is performed with any greater regularity on bulls of either water buffalo or gaur but more vedios show they start chewing from back or behind when the bovines are still alive and after they weaken go for a neck bite. This is for sure not because of difficulty on strangulation but because frontal attack is just too risky. Of course, actually we assess only theoretical possibility for strangulation, because gaur knows very well that has to protect his neck, and in case he knows about tiger presence makes any efforts to protect the throat. That's way for tiger is probably senseless to try to get a bull who is aware of his presence. We have several videos and images showing actually tigers fleeng away from gaur. (09-07-2018, 10:17 AM)Wolverine Wrote: Obviously gaur and the wild water buffalo have quite similar robustness of the neck and are equally vulnerable (unvulnerable) for neck strangulation. Then developes the question which of these two herbivores is harder to be killed by tiger.pretty much on point your analysis, i still don't know how large do indian subspecies of wild water buffalo get and how they compare to the indian subspecies of gaur to really see how the tiger might approach things. All guides say wild water buffalo are more dangerous animal but gaur inhabit pristine core areas of the jungle where encounter on foot is unlikely, wild water buffalo are more habituated to humans, frequently come out into the agriculture to raid crops, so they are much likely to be encountered especially considering on foot when attack likely occurs. From domestic point of view, water buffaloes are much more willing to unite and counter attack, i read somewhere in wildfact that to discourage jaguar pradation on cattle, they introduce water buffaloes which began to associate themselves with cattle and are sccessfully dealing with the big cats and protecting the cattles. but there are certain levels to this, it seemingly wouldnt work in tiger country against a very large cat, But it shows the mindset of the buffalo, likely a profound herd instinct, However Gaur being a wild animal should be different than cattle in regards to instictive nature to protect it's members within the herd in a face of adversity, we can't know how this is different to water buffaloe's, i think gaurs are shown to be a little more skittish than wild water buffaloes but iam not entirely sure what difference that will make in defending against big cat, there is still some degree of offense involved and if it thinks it cannot harm the offenser it can run away and lead it's herd to safety. For a tiger, if it decided to not opt for hamstringing (which will be the safest) water buffalo presents a challenge with it's horns foremost, because it's widely spreading and hard to avoid those things looming above you. for gaurs, tiger if it is exceptionally agile could still dodge around and get a throat, like in a video of raja-the tiger and female gaur, bull gaur would be impressively large I am not doubting it but that's my view. However in a more realsitic scenario if tiger creep from behind , water buffalo has more slower movement due to it's big horns while gaurs are more alert and they turn around quicker so it will be easier to take down bull of wild water buffaloes more. regarding the throat gripping analysis, it won't be that round (i think that fight is for rhino's throat in cross section) , bovine has more angle on it's throat and skin is not as thick as those of pachyderm's, big cats have perfected the suffocating grip technique and have been shown time and again on virtually every prey species be it giraffee, buffaloes or any other big prey, likewise gaur and water buffalo at Max weight will have similar thickness i suppose so it's the same challenge, water buffalo might have slightly tougher skin though as is the case with domestic ones. A big cat will be able to grip substantial portion of the neck meaning it doesnot need to cover the entire area and actually hold so tight that its possible the prey chokes against it's own muscle.
American bison @ European Bison
 *This image is copyright of its original author
Interesting would be a bull gaur compared with a few of the biggest Pleistocene bovine such as the giant bison of N. America and the giant buffalo of Africa.
(09-10-2018, 01:11 PM)brotherbear Wrote: Interesting would be a bull gaur compared with a few of the biggest Pleistocene bovine such as the giant bison of N. America and the giant buffalo of Africa. Size difference would be somewhat like a bull gaur compared to a large female or an average bull of an Indian rhino.. ... here is an interesting footage of all three of asia's giants together.  (04-11-2018, 03:48 PM)qstxyz Wrote: Some amateur-comparison with photoshop This is one of the most beautifull works that I ever saw!!! Congratulations @qstxyz. Like you said, you use information from Wikipedia and other internet sources. I am going to do something for you, I am going to correct and edit the information and re-escalate the sizes in order to show the real measurements. Check please that this is your work, so the full credit is for you.  
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