There is a world somewhere between reality and fiction. Although ignored by many, it is very real and so are those living in it. This forum is about the natural world. Here, wild animals will be heard and respected. The forum offers a glimpse into an unknown world as well as a room with a view on the present and the future. Anyone able to speak on behalf of those living in the emerald forest and the deep blue sea is invited to join.
11-08-2017, 09:56 AM( This post was last modified: 11-08-2017, 10:43 AM by peter )
PROTECTING THE AMUR TIGER
Here's two videos about the plight of the Amur tiger and those protecting them. Plight? But the number of tigers has gone up a bit, hasn't it?
Yes.
But poachers also know. Furthermore, they can now use roads built to transport oil and gas. These new roads enable them to get to districts they couldn't get to in the recent past. There are not enough rangers as a result of cuts. The investments agreed on during the Tiger Meeting in St. Petersburg turned out to be paper tigers, that is. Also remember that many Amur tigers live outside of the protected zapovedniks.
In spite of the boycot and the budget cuts, the Russians do a very good job:
To finish the post, an update about tiger 'Boris'. Boris was rehabilitated and released into the wild some time ago. He made a few headlines, as he killed at least two bears interested in his kills in his teens:
"Behind the creation of national park "Land of the Leopard" as long as I know stay Sergey Ivanov - former Chief of Staff of the Presidential Executive Office and the third most powerful man in Russia. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sergei_Ivanov
During his early years of diplomatic career he accidently met a leopard in Eastern Africa (Kenya) and was so impressed that became a big fan of that animal. Sergey Ivanov did almost all burocratic work for the creation of that national park and was so powerful that even instructed Russian army to stop any military exercises in 30 km radius of the park in order to not worry the wild animals. Unfortunately a few years ago Sergey Ivanov lost tragicaly his son in car accident and withdrow from big politics.
Concerning Vladimir Putin himself he is more interested in tigers. Putin is no doubt a dictator and destroyed democracy in Russia. But he no doubt has some merits for the conservation of tigers in Russia. He is the first Russian ruller who personally made 2-3 interactions with Amur tigers traveling in the their remote wild forests. Here Putin release into the wild young Amur tigers: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eaVl6zcyA9I
I don't say that Putin love tigers because he probably love only power but probably he feel some limited sympathy and interest toward them as long as its possible to any politician. There are rumors that a decade ago he called all regional governors and people with power in Russian Far East in joined meeting. "I want from you tigers to be well protected, want their numbers increasing and I want results - said boldly the Big Bad Uncle - and hit the table with his fist. Since then the regional leaders from Russian Far East start to afraid for their positions, because any fail in protecting Amur tigers could lead to dismissal of the governors of Primorskii or Habarovski region. The number and the territory of protected arias in Ussuriland for last 17 years increased tree fold. Of course nobody can stop completely the poaching of tigers because the Chinese black market is too big temptation for every hunter and is too close.
That fear from Putin has also his negative sides. Trying to convince the boss that number of tigers is increasing local Russian governmental institutions maybe artificially boost the real number of Amur tigers hiding the real numbers. So, concerning tiger numbers is better to believe to independent non-governmental organisations and take with some doubt official data. But in general situation with Amur tigers in not too bad.
This tiger sub-specie probably has the best prospects in the future because its the only one existing in the territories where the human populations is decreasing. Russia is currently entering a second more harsh phase of its demographic crisis because now in birth circle are entering very limited and not numerous generation of women born in chaotic 90-s."
11-11-2017, 07:38 AM( This post was last modified: 11-13-2017, 12:52 PM by peter )
ON A PHOTOGRAPH OF A SUNDERBAN TIGRESS AND A WILD BOAR
a - Introduction
In the tiger predation thread, a photograph of a tigress with a wild boar was recently posted. Here it is:
*This image is copyright of its original author
After it had been posted, a question was asked. An answer followed.
I vaguely remembered the photograph and the story behind it. When reading the posts in the tiger predation thread, I concluded that something had gone wrong.
In order to find out a bit more, I decided for a search. Here's the result.
b - Source
To keep it short: I found the article that had the photograph above. Here's the link to the article:
Scroll down. There's a second photograph of the tigress above:
*This image is copyright of its original author
This photograph clearly shows that the tigress was a mere sack of bones when she was darted. She died shortly after she was darted.
In order to find out more, you need to read the article. I could do a summary and say that things can go wrong when a wild tiger is darted. The famous Sauraha male from Royal Chitwan (Nepal) was another (unintended) victim. He accidentally drowned in a pool when he was darted some time after Mel Sunquist had left. They couldn't get there in time.
c - Conclusion
The intention behind this forum is good information about the natural world. Wild creatures struggle everywhere. They don't have a voice, but we can help out in this respect. The condition is that we post good information.
When contributing to the forum, always check the information. Add the source and everything else that can be considered as important. If we do that, we can create something of value.
If we don't, we contribute to something else. The story discussed in this post underlines that accuracy is important.
11-23-2017, 04:33 AM( This post was last modified: 11-23-2017, 04:48 AM by Wolverine )
(10-31-2017, 08:35 AM)peter Wrote: Updates on 'Rashel' and her cubs
As the article triggered the interest of many, we would be very interested in a follow-up on Rashel, her four cubs and the bear. Maybe you can find a bit more?
"A TIGRESS IN THE HABAROVSKI REGION'S FOREST GOT RID OF A MANIAC
The forest rangers suggest that the multi-child tigress has "complained" to the father of her cubs from the bear
The bear who regularly displaced her from her kills in the aria of Lazo discontinued to follow her due to some not very clear reasons.
...............................................................................here the article repeats the facts about displacement from previous article
- Some time ago she roared in unusual way in the forest, as we understand she "complained" from the bear to the male tiger "Ockarik", who roam not far away. He is the father of Rachel's cubs we several times noticed that they meet each other regularly. And currently the bear (we gave him a nickname "Hlamida", because he is gigantic) got further away from her and doesn't pursue her anymore - told to Information Agency "Habrovski region today" Alexandr Batalov, a director of forest-hunting unit "Durminskoe".
Despite in the aria of Lazo is already a lot of snow nor the Asiatic black bears, nor the brown bears are not yet entered into hibernation. According to ranger's words the bears could be active longer if there is a lot of food in the forest. We are not giving up to destroy the bear Hlamida. Untill the end of November we have a bear hunting license. But this bear is not simple - he is quite cunning - admitted Batalov. In general brown bears are smart animals and by opininion of some scientists could outsmart apes and wolves and they are able to forecast the situation" That's the end of the article.
On the 1 minute video are shown Rashel and a male tiger Ockarik.
11-25-2017, 07:01 AM( This post was last modified: 11-25-2017, 08:50 PM by peter )
(11-23-2017, 04:33 AM)Wolverine Wrote:
(10-31-2017, 08:35 AM)peter Wrote: Updates on 'Rashel' and her cubs
As the article triggered the interest of many, we would be very interested in a follow-up on Rashel, her four cubs and the bear. Maybe you can find a bit more?
"A TIGRESS IN THE HABAROVSKI REGION'S FOREST GOT RID OF A MANIAC
The forest rangers suggest that the multi-child tigress has "complained" to the father of her cubs from the bear
The bear who regularly displaced her from her kills in the aria of Lazo discontinued to follow her due to some not very clear reasons.
...............................................................................here the article repeats the facts about displacement from previous article
- Some time ago she roared in unusual way in the forest, as we understand she "complained" from the bear to the male tiger "Ockarik", who roam not far away. He is the father of Rachel's cubs we several times noticed that they meet each other regularly. And currently the bear (we gave him a nickname "Hlamida", because he is gigantic) got further away from her and doesn't pursue her anymore - told to Information Agency "Habrovski region today" Alexandr Batalov, a director of forest-hunting unit "Durminskoe".
Despite in the aria of Lazo is already a lot of snow nor the Asiatic black bears, nor the brown bears are not yet entered into hibernation. According to ranger's words the bears could be active longer if there is a lot of food in the forest. We are not giving up to destroy the bear Hlamida. Untill the end of November we have a bear hunting license. But this bear is not simple - he is quite cunning - admitted Batalov. In general brown bears are smart animals and by opininion of some scientists could outsmart apes and wolves and they are able to forecast the situation" That's the end of the article.
On the 1 minute video are shown Rashel and a male tiger Ockarik.
WOLVERINE
Thanks for the follow-up. The conclusion of the rangers could be correct. Adult male Amur tigers often share their territory with more than one female. They fathered most, if not all, cubs and have a strong bond with the females and the cubs. As they use a lot of energy patrolling their territory, it's more than likely that they are well-informed. Wild tigers know when to hunt where and how to avoid problems. As to the bear situation. My guess is they know a lot more than we assume. Trainers consider captive tigers as observers and thinkers. Researchers agree.
a - The flipside of extortion
All in all, I'd say it's very likely that male tiger 'Ockarik' knew about the male brown bear 'Hlamida' and his peculiar habit regarding tigress 'Rashel'. My guess is the bear, maybe as a result of his size, overplayed his hand in the extortion department. If the rangers noticed, it's more than likely that male tiger 'Ockarik' also was aware about the situation. When 'Rashel' had had enough, she most probably made it known.
b - Intention in animals
I don't know if the rangers or tiger 'Ockarik' had a talk with 'Hlamida', but I do know that intentions effect communication. I could invite Einstein for an explanation, but I'm afraid it could take a few days. I could also say that the effect of intentions often is immediate. I saw it in humans and I'm very sure that intentions are even more important when animals interact.
Example. I assume that most of us read the numerous stories from hunters unable to contact the animals they're after during the hunting season. The moment they leave their rifle at home and go for a walk, they see one trophy animal after the other.
Hlamida is a real big boy. My guess is he knows about the outcry of 'Rashel', the response of 'Ockarik', the interest of the rangers and the hunting season. The rangers said 'Hlamida' is a cunning animal. This means that he most probably picked up the tell-tale signs. As they didn't look good, he decided to change a few habits.
c - Alliances
Could male tiger 'Ockarik' be a part of these signs? 'Hlamida' is about twice his size (referring to weight). No problem, one would think. But you never know in a serious fight. Furthermore, there is alliances.
I remember a post from someone who had seen many videos from Everland. As he was able to read Korean as well, he was able to get to a decent analysis. He posted the result of his quest in Carnivora some years ago. It was an interesting read. Not pro-tiger or anti-lion, but different. In my opinion, it was the end of the myths often discussed by posters interested in lions and tigers. The stories about lions teaming up on tigers and tigers unable to adapt to the situation, I mean. Lions have an initial advantage when they share a large enclosure with tigers because they know about teamwork (inborn), but tigers apparently are able to adapt to a degree after some time. I printed the analysis and will post it when the opportunity presents itself.
Returning to alliances. Tigers are solitary animals. When males fight, other males will not intervene. But females do at times. I have seen it, John Varty saw (and wrote about) it and I read stories about wild tigers teaming up at times. If never heard about two males teaming up, but a female can team up with a male and I also read stories of wild females teaming up. A male and a female can team up to hunt, but an alliance can also be a result of the intention to protect a relation or a territory.
d - Interaction between captive Amur tigers and brown bears
I never read anything about wild tigers teaming up on bears, but I have seen captive Amur tigers interact with captive brown bears more than once in facilities. I also heard about interactions that resulted in very serious incidents. In one of these, 3 tigers and one bear were involved.
In the late nineties of the last century, I was invited by the director of a facility. He had adopted 7 Amur tigers from a French circus. The day they arrived, reporters were invited. During the interviews taken in front of the tiger cage wagon, I sensed something I had never 'felt' before.
The tigers seemed very agitated, if not outright aggressive. Silent aggression, it was. At one stage, all 7 stood on their hindlegs watching another cage wagon. I hadn't seen the other wagon, as it was evening. I walked to the other wagon. Halfway both cage wagons, I waited for some minutes. What I felt, was difficult to describe. My best attempt would be to say that I was flooded by something I had never felt before. A 'conversation of death', meaby? Very heavy energy, it was. After some minutes, I went to the other cage wagon. In this wagon, I saw a very large male brown bear in great distress. After watching him for some time, the director of the facility suddenly appeared. He too had felt something and left the reporters to investigate. He immediately had the cage wagon of the bear moved.
A few months later, the bear was sedated for treatment. When they had finally lifted him to a table with a machine often used by building companies, they called me. When I went in to measure him, I was nearly flattened by reporters, cage hands, keepers and all others assisting the vet. The bear had destroyed the ropes and one of the heavy doors. It was the one leading to his cage. They never gave it another try. The bear was a giant, but he was never weighed. A few months after the attempt to treat him, he was transported to another facility.
e - Hlamida
Returning to tigress 'Rashel', tiger 'Ockarik', bear 'Hlamida', the rangers and those interested in a trophy bear. Of these, one ('Hlamida') has a serious problem. My guess is he knows and took his precautions. I hope he finds a quiet place to hibernate. It would be a shame to lose such a giant.
f - Size of 'Rashel'
As we couldn't compare her to another female or a male Amur tiger, we used the average weight of adult wild Amur tigresses (about 120 kg. or 265 pounds) in the previous post. When the video starts, male tiger 'Ockarik' passes her at a distance of a few feet when she is standing in a normal position with her head slightly raised. At that moment, the top of her skull is at the same level as the top of the shoulder of 'Ockarik'. This means that the male is much taller than the female.
He could be a giant, but my guess is that 'Rashel' is a smallish tigress. Mazak (1983, pp. 180) published a table with the standing height of captive tigers. Five Amur tigresses ranged between 82-88 cm. (average about 85 cm.), whereas 7 males ranged between 96-106 cm. If we add the giant male from the Duisburg Zoo (110 cm.), the 8 males averaged 102-103 cm. The difference between captive males and females, therefore, is 17-18 cm. My guess is that the difference between 'Rashel' and 'Ockarik' is well over that mark.
We know that wild Amur tigers are smaller than captive Amur tigers. If we assume that 'Ockarik' is about average (95 cm. at the shoulder while standing), tigress 'Rashel' is 75 cm. at most. If 'Ockarik' is large (say 100 cm.), 'Rashel' is about 80 cm., meaby a bit less.
Wild male Amur tigers average 176-177 kg. If we remove young adults and 'problem' tigers, the average rises to about 190 kg. (420 pounds). Miquelle thought 430 pounds (195 kg.) would be closer to the mark, but I propose to use 185-190 kg. for now.
A good average has all: the young, the old, the big, the small, the healthy and the unhealthy. Prime males in good health seem to average about 200 kg. (442 pounds). Let's assume that 'Ockarik', who seems very fit, is close to that mark (200 kg.). If so, tigress 'Rashel' is about half his weight, meaby even less. It's not unsusual to see an Amur tigress of that size. One adult captive Amur tigress I weighed was only 223 cm. in total length in a straight line and just over 100 kg. Her mother, at 254 cm. in total length and 136 kg., was quite a bit larger. In the great monography of Yudakov and Nikolaev ('Winter ecology of the Amur tiger', 2nd revised edition, 2012, pp. 78-80), one of the tigresses they studied was nicknamed 'The Miniature Tigress'.
g - Interaction between wild tigers and brown bears - psychological warfare
The big bear seems to be 3-4 times the weight of 'Rashel'. Let's assume he is 350 kg. for now. Almost 800 pounds is more than enough to confront any tiger anywhere, but a tiger is faster and at least as agile. Furthermore, there is the teeth department. The canines, I mean. Talking maximum force at the tip of the canines. If we add plenty of experience in using them and fore-arms strong enough to handle a herbivore twice the weight of a large male bear, the outlook changes somewhat. As bears are very durable and difficult to kill, one would still fancy his chances. This regarding a one-on-one in the fysical department.
But a fued isn't about fysical abilities only. A fued is always there. So is stress. Tigers know and use what seems to be psychological warfare. The man who robbed and wounded a male Amur tiger in Sobolonye was gone before he was attacked and eaten ('The tiger', John Vaillant, 2010).
Based on what I read and saw, it starts with intention. A few probing attackes maybe. Than more serious raids directed at weak spots. Maybe they let go during hibernation to wait for a better opportunity. Early spring maybe? According to trainers, fueds can last for a very long time. It is about making your presence felt. That and the culmination of anger. And selecting the right moment.
Tiger Corbett (in John Varty's place) was losing a serious fight with another male when the female he knew so well intervened. She saved his life for sure. Some time later, he killed his opponent. He wasn't stronger, but selected the right moment (his opponent was sleeping when he was attacked).
When tigers and bears are discussed by posters, males of about equal size feature in hypothetical scenarios and ideal circumstances, ring judges and all. But reality is very much different. It could be that most bouts are a result of aggression or sheer rage near kill sites. In these fights, coincidence is a factor. When it is about a fued, other things come into play. Psychological warfare is one of these. The waiting game. I do not doubt that bears are very intelligent. They have to be in order to be able to turn the tables. In a cage, when a bit larger, the more durable animal would stand a decent chance. In natural conditions, one would perhaps fancy the born predator. This regarding average males and one-on-one scenarios.
If a large bear faces an alliance, he has a problem. Large felids, large scavengers and extortion are part of nature. Large bears no doubt dominate and extort adult tigresses and young adult male tigers at times, but if a more or less natural habit develops into an obsession that has an effect on bonds and territory, things change. Linda Kerley is one of those in the know on tigers and bears in the Russian Far East. She says anything can happen. I agree.
h - The video
I watched the video many times. In the beginning, tigress 'Rashel' seems alert and anxious. A bit bewildered, if you will. Tiger 'Ockarit', after checking the forest behind her, almost touches her when he passes her. After a second check (including checking the camera, so it seems), he watches her and talked to her. She then lies down and relaxes. Seems like he told her not to worry.
I've seen it many times in facilities. Males usually don't respond to changes, but females are different. A tigress with cubs in particular is generally more alert and more moody. If a cage is cleaned and a tigress has to move house, she can explode out of nowhere. Not seldom, keepers are attacked in those situations. Fights between females also can develop. Males often intervene during these disputes to keep the damage limited. In captivity, a male strongly connected to a female seems to take care of her. Not seldom, it feels like he is reassuring her. I don't think that wild tigers are different in this respect.
(10-31-2017, 08:35 AM)peter Wrote: Updates on 'Rashel' and her cubs
As the article triggered the interest of many, we would be very interested in a follow-up on Rashel, her four cubs and the bear. Maybe you can find a bit more?
"A TIGRESS IN THE HABAROVSKI REGION'S FOREST GOT RID OF A MANIAC
The forest rangers suggest that the multi-child tigress has "complained" to the father of her cubs from the bear
The bear who regularly displaced her from her kills in the aria of Lazo discontinued to follow her due to some not very clear reasons.
...............................................................................here the article repeats the facts about displacement from previous article
- Some time ago she roared in unusual way in the forest, as we understand she "complained" from the bear to the male tiger "Ockarik", who roam not far away. He is the father of Rachel's cubs we several times noticed that they meet each other regularly. And currently the bear (we gave him a nickname "Hlamida", because he is gigantic) got further away from her and doesn't pursue her anymore - told to Information Agency "Habrovski region today" Alexandr Batalov, a director of forest-hunting unit "Durminskoe".
Despite in the aria of Lazo is already a lot of snow nor the Asiatic black bears, nor the brown bears are not yet entered into hibernation. According to ranger's words the bears could be active longer if there is a lot of food in the forest. We are not giving up to destroy the bear Hlamida. Untill the end of November we have a bear hunting license. But this bear is not simple - he is quite cunning - admitted Batalov. In general brown bears are smart animals and by opininion of some scientists could outsmart apes and wolves and they are able to forecast the situation" That's the end of the article.
On the 1 minute video are shown Rashel and a male tiger Ockarik.
WOLVERINE
Thanks for the follow-up. The conclusion of the rangers could be correct. Adult male Amur tigers often share their territory with more than one female. They fathered most, if not all, cubs and have a strong bond with the females and the cubs. As they use a lot of energy patrolling their territory, it's more than likely that they are well-informed. Wild tigers know when to hunt where and how to avoid problems. As to the bear situation. My guess is they know a lot more than we assume. Trainers consider captive tigers as observers and thinkers. Researchers seem to agree.
a - The flipside of extortion
All in all, I'd say it's very likely that male tiger 'Ockarik' knew about the male brown bear 'Hlamida' and his peculiar habit regarding tigress 'Rashel'. My guess is the bear, maybe as a result of his size, overplayed his hand in the extortion department. If the rangers noticed, it's more than likely that male tiger 'Ockarik' also was aware about the situation. When 'Rashel' had had enough, she most probably made it known.
b - Intention in animals
I don't know if the rangers or tiger 'Ockarik' had a talk with 'Hlamida', but I do know that intentions have more effect than many assume. I could invite Einstein for an explanation, but I'm afraid it could take a few days. I could also say that the effect of intentions often is immediate. I saw it in humans and I'm very sure that intentions are much more important when animals communicate. Vital could be the correct word.
Example. I assume that most of us read the numerous stories from hunters unable to contact the animals they're after during the hunting season. The moment they leave their rifle at home and go for a stroll, they see one trophy animal after the other. This is the reason they often use dogs and modern devices today. It has nothing to do with hunting, but that's something entirely different.
Hlamida is a real big boy. My guess is he knows about hunters and their interest in large male brown bears. The rangers said 'Hlamida' is a cunning animal. This means that he most probably had picked up the tell-tale signs. As they didn't look good, he decided to change a few habits and move on.
c - Alliances
Could male tiger 'Ockarik' be a part of these signs? 'Hlamida' is about twice his size (referring to weight). No problem, one would think. But you never know in a serious fight. Furthermore, there is alliances. I read stories written by those I consider in the know. The conclusion is that tigers cooperate at times.
I remember a post from someone who had seen many videos about lions and tigers in Everland. As he was able to read Korean as well, he was able to get to a decent analysis. He posted the result of his quest in Carnivora some years ago. It was an interesting read. Not pro-tiger or anti-lion, but different. It also was the end of the myths often discussed by posters interested in lions and tigers. The stories about lions teaming up on tigers and tigers unable to adapt to the situation, I mean. Lions have an initial advantage when they share a large enclosure with tigers because they know about teamwrok, but tigers apparently are able to adapt to a degree after some time. I printed the analysis and will post it when the opportunity presents itself.
Returning to alliances. Tigers are solitary animals. When males fight, other males will not intervene. But females can and do intervene at times. I have seen it, John Varty saw (and wrote about) it and I read stories about wild tigers teaming up at times. If never heard about two males teaming up, but a female can team up with a male and I also read stories of wild females teaming up. A male and a female team up to hunt at times, but an alliance could be intended to protect a relation or a territory.
d - Interaction between captive Amur tigers and brown bears
I never read anything about wild tigers teaming up on bears, but I have seen captive Amur tigers interact with captive brown bears more than once in facilities. I also heard about interactions that resulted in very serious incidents. In one incident, 3 tigers and one bear were involved.
What I remember best, happened in the late nineties. I was invited by the director of a facility. He had adopted 7 Amur tigers from a French circus. The day they arrived, reporters were invited. During the interviews taken in front of the tiger cage wagon, I noticed something I had never 'felt' before.
The tigers seemed very agitated, if not outright aggressive. Silent aggression, it was. At one stage, all 7 stood on their hindlegs watching another cage wagon. I hadn't seen the other wagon, as it was evening. I walked to the other wagon. Halfway both cage wagons, I waited for some minutes. What I felt, was difficult to describe. My best attempt would be to say that I was flooded by something I had never felt before. A 'conversation of death', meaby? After some minutes, I went to the other cage wagon. In this wagon, I saw a very large male brown bear. He was in great distress. After watching him for some time, the director of the facility suddenly appeared. He too had felt something and left the reporters to investigate. He immediately had the cage wagon of the bear moved.
A few months later, the bear was sedated for treatment. When they had finally lifted him to a table with a machine used by contractors, they called me. When I went in to measure him, I was nearly flattened by reporters, cage hands, keepers and all others assisting the vet. The bear had destroyed the ropes and one of the heavy doors. It was the one leading to his cage. They never gave it another try. The bear was a giant, but he was never weighed. A few months after the attempt to treat him, he was transported to another facility.
e - Hlamida
Returning to tigress 'Rashel', tiger 'Ockarik', bear 'Hlamida', the rangers and those interested in a trophy bear. Of these 5, one ('Hlamida') has a serious problem. My guess is he knew and took his precautions. I hope he finds a nice place to hibernate. It would be a shame to lose such a giant.
f - Size of 'Rashel'
As we couldn't compare her to another female or a male Amur tiger, we used the average weight of adult wild Amur tigresses (about 120 kg. or 265 pounds) in the previous post. When the video starts, male tiger 'Ockarik' passes her at a distance of a few feet when she is standing in a normal position with her head slightly raised. At that moment, the top of her skull is at the same level as the top of the shoulder of 'Ockarik'. This means that the male is much taller than the female.
He could be a giant, but my guess is that 'Rashel' is a smallish tigress. Mazak (1983, pp. 180) published a table with the standing height of captive tigers. Five Amur tigresses ranged between 82-88 cm. (average about 85 cm.), whereas 7 males ranged between 96-106 cm. If we add the giant male from the Duisburg Zoo (110 cm.), the 8 males averaged 102-103 cm. The difference between captive males and females, therefore, is 17-18 cm. My guess is that the difference between 'Rashel' and 'Ockarik' is well over that mark.
We know that wild Amur tigers are smaller than captive Amur tigers. If we assume that 'Ockarik' is about average (95 cm. standing), tigress 'Rashel' is 75 cm. at most. If 'Ockarik' is large (say 100 cm.), 'Rashel' is about 80 cm., meaby a bit less.
Wild male Amur tigers average 176-177 kg. If we remove young adults and 'problem' tigers, the average rises to about 190 kg. (420 pounds). Miquelle thought 430 pounds (195 kg.) would be closer to the mark, but I propose to use 185-190 kg. for now.
An average has all animals: the young, the old, the big, the small, the healthy and the unhealthy. Prime males in good health average about 200 kg. (442 pounds). Let's assume that 'Ockarik', who looks to be very fit, is close to that mark (200 kg.). If so, tigress 'Rashel' is about half his weight, meaby even less. It's not unsusual to see an Amur tigress of that size. One adult captive Amur tigress I weighed was only 223 cm. in total length in a straight line and just over 100 kg. Her mother, at 254 cm. in total length and 136 kg., was quite a bit larger. In the great monography of Yudakov and Nikolaev ('Winter ecology of the Amur tiger', 2nd revised edition, 2012, pp. 78-80), one of the tigresses was nicknamed 'The Miniature tigress'.
g - Interaction between wild tigers and brown bears - psychological warfare
The big bear seems to be 3-4 times the weight of 'Rashel'. Let's assume he is 350 kg. for now. Almost 800 pounds is more than enough to confront any tiger anywhere, but a tiger is faster and at least as agile. Furthermore, there is the teeth department. The canines, I mean. Talking maximum force at the tip of the canines. If we add plenty of experience in using them and fore-arms strong enough to handle a herbivore twice the weight of a large male bear, the outlook changes somewhat. As bears are very durable and difficult to kill, one would still fancy his chances. This regarding a one-on-one in the fysical department.
But a fued isn't about fysical abilities only. A fued is always there. So is stress. Tigers know and use what seems to be psychological warfare. The man who robbed and wounded a male Amur tiger in Sobolonye was gone before he was attacked and eaten.
Based on what I read and saw, it starts with intention. A few probing attackes maybe. Than more serious raids directed at weak spots. Maybe they let go during hibernation to wait for a better opportunity. Early spring maybe? According to trainers, fueds can last for a very long time. It is about making your presence felt. That and the culmination of anger. And selecting the right moment.
Tiger Corbett (in John Varty's place) was losing a serious fight with another male when the female he knew so well intervened. She saved his life for sure. Some time later, he killed his opponent. He wasn't stronger, but selected the right moment (his opponent was sleeping when he was attacked).
When tigers and bears are discussed by posters, males of about equal size feature in hypothetical scenarios and ideal circumstances, ring judges and all. But reality is very much different. It could be that most bouts are a result of aggression or sheer rage near kill sites. In these fights, coincidence definitely is a factor. When it is about a fued, other things come into play. Psychological warfare no doubt is one of these. The waiting game. I do not doubt that bears are very intelligent. They have to be in order to be able to turn the tables. In a cage, when a bit larger, the more durable animal would stand a decent chance. In natural conditions, one would perhaps fancy the born predator.
h - The video
I watched the video many times. In the beginning, tigress 'Rashel' seems alert and anxious. A bit bewildered, if you will. Tiger 'Ockarit', after checking the forest behind her, almost touches her when he passes her. After a second check, he watches her when he disappeared for a third round. When he moves, she lies down and seems to feel a bit better.
Seems like he was reassuring her.
Yes I agree, your guess that Rashel is small tigress is quite logical, because if she is an average tigress (120 kg) than the weight of Hlamida should be ... 420-480 kg ... almost unreal... I compared many times the images of the two animals and could say with certainty the bear is close to 4 TIMES more massive, ok, may be 3,5-4, but for sure is NOT ONLY 3 times. No way. The bear is totally dwarfing the tigress. If Rashel is only 100 than we get much more reasonable digits for the bear - 350-400 kg.
11-25-2017, 08:18 PM( This post was last modified: 11-25-2017, 09:42 PM by Rishi )
Forest officials to rope in student volunteers for tiger census in 2018 U Sudhakar Reddy| TNN | Nov 25, 2017, 08:02 IST
HYDERABAD: Due to an increase in the number of forests beats, Telangana now needs 6,000 volunteers for the massive Tiger Census to be taken up in January 2018 as part of the All India Tiger Estimation Survey.
So far, forest officials could gather only 500 wildlife activists from various NGOs in the city for the job. As the training has to begin in December, forest officials are looking for more volunteers and have now opened the opportunity for college students for the first time.
A forest official of the Telangana wildlife wing said, "In United AP, we had 2,800 beats and now in T alone, due to reorganization, we have 3,124 forest beats. Each beat shall have at least two or three volunteers to go around and track pug marks." Several NGOs such as WWFHyderabad, Friends of Snakes Society, Hyticos, People for Animals and Birdwatchers' Society, among others, have come forward to volunteer. However, they would make up only 500 volunteers.
The Census will be taken up in January third week. "The survey will include not only census of tigers and panthers but also of other carnivores and herbivores," said the official. Interested PG and degree college students, particularly from the departments of zoology and botany, can contact forest officials on [email protected].
According to information from camera traps, there are around 14 tigers in Amrabad Tiger Reserve in Mahbubnagar and nine tigers in North Telangana and other parts. Apart from these, Adilabad, Kawal Tiger Reserve, Kawal tiger corridor, Eturunagaram and Kinnerasani have reported tiger presence. "Tigers are moving in from Maharashtra into Telangana. In one case in Adilabad, a tiger gave birth to four cubs which have survived. We are tracking them continuously," the official added.
11-27-2017, 04:04 PM( This post was last modified: 11-27-2017, 04:21 PM by Wolverine )
(11-25-2017, 07:01 AM)peter Wrote:
(11-23-2017, 04:33 AM)Wolverine Wrote:
(10-31-2017, 08:35 AM)peter Wrote: Updates on 'Rashel' and her cubs
As the article triggered the interest of many, we would be very interested in a follow-up on Rashel, her four cubs and the bear. Maybe you can find a bit more?
"A TIGRESS IN THE HABAROVSKI REGION'S FOREST GOT RID OF A MANIAC
The forest rangers suggest that the multi-child tigress has "complained" to the father of her cubs from the bear
The bear who regularly displaced her from her kills in the aria of Lazo discontinued to follow her due to some not very clear reasons.
...............................................................................here the article repeats the facts about displacement from previous article
- Some time ago she roared in unusual way in the forest, as we understand she "complained" from the bear to the male tiger "Ockarik", who roam not far away. He is the father of Rachel's cubs we several times noticed that they meet each other regularly. And currently the bear (we gave him a nickname "Hlamida", because he is gigantic) got further away from her and doesn't pursue her anymore - told to Information Agency "Habrovski region today" Alexandr Batalov, a director of forest-hunting unit "Durminskoe".
Despite in the aria of Lazo is already a lot of snow nor the Asiatic black bears, nor the brown bears are not yet entered into hibernation. According to ranger's words the bears could be active longer if there is a lot of food in the forest. We are not giving up to destroy the bear Hlamida. Untill the end of November we have a bear hunting license. But this bear is not simple - he is quite cunning - admitted Batalov. In general brown bears are smart animals and by opininion of some scientists could outsmart apes and wolves and they are able to forecast the situation" That's the end of the article.
On the 1 minute video are shown Rashel and a male tiger Ockarik.
WOLVERINE
Thanks for the follow-up. The conclusion of the rangers could be correct. Adult male Amur tigers often share their territory with more than one female. They fathered most, if not all, cubs and have a strong bond with the females and the cubs. As they use a lot of energy patrolling their territory, it's more than likely that they are well-informed. Wild tigers know when to hunt where and how to avoid problems. As to the bear situation. My guess is they know a lot more than we assume. Trainers consider captive tigers as observers and thinkers. Researchers agree.
a - The flipside of extortion
All in all, I'd say it's very likely that male tiger 'Ockarik' knew about the male brown bear 'Hlamida' and his peculiar habit regarding tigress 'Rashel'. My guess is the bear, maybe as a result of his size, overplayed his hand in the extortion department. If the rangers noticed, it's more than likely that male tiger 'Ockarik' also was aware about the situation. When 'Rashel' had had enough, she most probably made it known.
b - Intention in animals
I don't know if the rangers or tiger 'Ockarik' had a talk with 'Hlamida', but I do know that intentions effect communication. I could invite Einstein for an explanation, but I'm afraid it could take a few days. I could also say that the effect of intentions often is immediate. I saw it in humans and I'm very sure that intentions are even more important when animals interact.
Example. I assume that most of us read the numerous stories from hunters unable to contact the animals they're after during the hunting season. The moment they leave their rifle at home and go for a walk, they see one trophy animal after the other.
Hlamida is a real big boy. My guess is he knows about the outcry of 'Rashel', the response of 'Ockarik', the interest of the rangers and the hunting season. The rangers said 'Hlamida' is a cunning animal. This means that he most probably picked up the tell-tale signs. As they didn't look good, he decided to change a few habits.
c - Alliances
Could male tiger 'Ockarik' be a part of these signs? 'Hlamida' is about twice his size (referring to weight). No problem, one would think. But you never know in a serious fight. Furthermore, there is alliances.
I remember a post from someone who had seen many videos from Everland. As he was able to read Korean as well, he was able to get to a decent analysis. He posted the result of his quest in Carnivora some years ago. It was an interesting read. Not pro-tiger or anti-lion, but different. In my opinion, it was the end of the myths often discussed by posters interested in lions and tigers. The stories about lions teaming up on tigers and tigers unable to adapt to the situation, I mean. Lions have an initial advantage when they share a large enclosure with tigers because they know about teamwork (inborn), but tigers apparently are able to adapt to a degree after some time. I printed the analysis and will post it when the opportunity presents itself.
Returning to alliances. Tigers are solitary animals. When males fight, other males will not intervene. But females do at times. I have seen it, John Varty saw (and wrote about) it and I read stories about wild tigers teaming up at times. If never heard about two males teaming up, but a female can team up with a male and I also read stories of wild females teaming up. A male and a female can team up to hunt, but an alliance can also be a result of the intention to protect a relation or a territory.
d - Interaction between captive Amur tigers and brown bears
I never read anything about wild tigers teaming up on bears, but I have seen captive Amur tigers interact with captive brown bears more than once in facilities. I also heard about interactions that resulted in very serious incidents. In one of these, 3 tigers and one bear were involved.
In the late nineties of the last century, I was invited by the director of a facility. He had adopted 7 Amur tigers from a French circus. The day they arrived, reporters were invited. During the interviews taken in front of the tiger cage wagon, I sensed something I had never 'felt' before.
The tigers seemed very agitated, if not outright aggressive. Silent aggression, it was. At one stage, all 7 stood on their hindlegs watching another cage wagon. I hadn't seen the other wagon, as it was evening. I walked to the other wagon. Halfway both cage wagons, I waited for some minutes. What I felt, was difficult to describe. My best attempt would be to say that I was flooded by something I had never felt before. A 'conversation of death', meaby? Very heavy energy, it was. After some minutes, I went to the other cage wagon. In this wagon, I saw a very large male brown bear in great distress. After watching him for some time, the director of the facility suddenly appeared. He too had felt something and left the reporters to investigate. He immediately had the cage wagon of the bear moved.
A few months later, the bear was sedated for treatment. When they had finally lifted him to a table with a machine often used by building companies, they called me. When I went in to measure him, I was nearly flattened by reporters, cage hands, keepers and all others assisting the vet. The bear had destroyed the ropes and one of the heavy doors. It was the one leading to his cage. They never gave it another try. The bear was a giant, but he was never weighed. A few months after the attempt to treat him, he was transported to another facility.
e - Hlamida
Returning to tigress 'Rashel', tiger 'Ockarik', bear 'Hlamida', the rangers and those interested in a trophy bear. Of these, one ('Hlamida') has a serious problem. My guess is he knows and took his precautions. I hope he finds a quiet place to hibernate. It would be a shame to lose such a giant.
f - Size of 'Rashel'
As we couldn't compare her to another female or a male Amur tiger, we used the average weight of adult wild Amur tigresses (about 120 kg. or 265 pounds) in the previous post. When the video starts, male tiger 'Ockarik' passes her at a distance of a few feet when she is standing in a normal position with her head slightly raised. At that moment, the top of her skull is at the same level as the top of the shoulder of 'Ockarik'. This means that the male is much taller than the female.
He could be a giant, but my guess is that 'Rashel' is a smallish tigress. Mazak (1983, pp. 180) published a table with the standing height of captive tigers. Five Amur tigresses ranged between 82-88 cm. (average about 85 cm.), whereas 7 males ranged between 96-106 cm. If we add the giant male from the Duisburg Zoo (110 cm.), the 8 males averaged 102-103 cm. The difference between captive males and females, therefore, is 17-18 cm. My guess is that the difference between 'Rashel' and 'Ockarik' is well over that mark.
We know that wild Amur tigers are smaller than captive Amur tigers. If we assume that 'Ockarik' is about average (95 cm. at the shoulder while standing), tigress 'Rashel' is 75 cm. at most. If 'Ockarik' is large (say 100 cm.), 'Rashel' is about 80 cm., meaby a bit less.
Wild male Amur tigers average 176-177 kg. If we remove young adults and 'problem' tigers, the average rises to about 190 kg. (420 pounds). Miquelle thought 430 pounds (195 kg.) would be closer to the mark, but I propose to use 185-190 kg. for now.
A good average has all: the young, the old, the big, the small, the healthy and the unhealthy. Prime males in good health seem to average about 200 kg. (442 pounds). Let's assume that 'Ockarik', who seems very fit, is close to that mark (200 kg.). If so, tigress 'Rashel' is about half his weight, meaby even less. It's not unsusual to see an Amur tigress of that size. One adult captive Amur tigress I weighed was only 223 cm. in total length in a straight line and just over 100 kg. Her mother, at 254 cm. in total length and 136 kg., was quite a bit larger. In the great monography of Yudakov and Nikolaev ('Winter ecology of the Amur tiger', 2nd revised edition, 2012, pp. 78-80), one of the tigresses they studied was nicknamed 'The Miniature Tigress'.
g - Interaction between wild tigers and brown bears - psychological warfare
The big bear seems to be 3-4 times the weight of 'Rashel'. Let's assume he is 350 kg. for now. Almost 800 pounds is more than enough to confront any tiger anywhere, but a tiger is faster and at least as agile. Furthermore, there is the teeth department. The canines, I mean. Talking maximum force at the tip of the canines. If we add plenty of experience in using them and fore-arms strong enough to handle a herbivore twice the weight of a large male bear, the outlook changes somewhat. As bears are very durable and difficult to kill, one would still fancy his chances. This regarding a one-on-one in the fysical department.
But a fued isn't about fysical abilities only. A fued is always there. So is stress. Tigers know and use what seems to be psychological warfare. The man who robbed and wounded a male Amur tiger in Sobolonye was gone before he was attacked and eaten ('The tiger', John Vaillant, 2010).
Based on what I read and saw, it starts with intention. A few probing attackes maybe. Than more serious raids directed at weak spots. Maybe they let go during hibernation to wait for a better opportunity. Early spring maybe? According to trainers, fueds can last for a very long time. It is about making your presence felt. That and the culmination of anger. And selecting the right moment.
Tiger Corbett (in John Varty's place) was losing a serious fight with another male when the female he knew so well intervened. She saved his life for sure. Some time later, he killed his opponent. He wasn't stronger, but selected the right moment (his opponent was sleeping when he was attacked).
When tigers and bears are discussed by posters, males of about equal size feature in hypothetical scenarios and ideal circumstances, ring judges and all. But reality is very much different. It could be that most bouts are a result of aggression or sheer rage near kill sites. In these fights, coincidence is a factor. When it is about a fued, other things come into play. Psychological warfare is one of these. The waiting game. I do not doubt that bears are very intelligent. They have to be in order to be able to turn the tables. In a cage, when a bit larger, the more durable animal would stand a decent chance. In natural conditions, one would perhaps fancy the born predator. This regarding average males and one-on-one scenarios.
If a large bear faces an alliance, he has a problem. Large felids, large scavengers and extortion are part of nature. Large bears no doubt dominate and extort adult tigresses and young adult male tigers at times, but if a more or less natural habit develops into an obsession that has an effect on bonds and territory, things change. Linda Kerley is one of those in the know on tigers and bears in the Russian Far East. She says anything can happen. I agree.
h - The video
I watched the video many times. In the beginning, tigress 'Rashel' seems alert and anxious. A bit bewildered, if you will. Tiger 'Ockarit', after checking the forest behind her, almost touches her when he passes her. After a second check (including checking the camera, so it seems), he watches her and talked to her. She then lies down and relaxes. Seems like he told her not to worry.
I've seen it many times in facilities. Males usually don't respond to changes, but females are different. A tigress with cubs in particular is generally more alert and more moody. If a cage is cleaned and a tigress has to move house, she can explode out of nowhere. Not seldom, keepers are attacked in those situations. Fights between females also can develop. Males often intervene during these disputes to keep the damage limited. In captivity, a male strongly connected to a female seems to take care of her. Not seldom, it feels like he is reassuring her. I don't think that wild tigers are different in this respect.
HERE IT IS!
Peter, I just found this new 30 minutes documentary film (from November 2017) shot exactly in the aria of Rashel-bear interaction where you can hear everything directly from the mouth of Mr Alexandr Batalov. He explains in details how he follow tigers in the snow and measure their traces, how he install camera traps, give some biography of different tigers (including Ockarik, Kya and others), numerous videos and photos of wild Amurs tigers are shown: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iZu87Fg1zDA
The film is called "On the trail of Amur tiger" and was just presented by Mr. Batalov in Habarovsk. He seems to be a remarkable man, thanks to such men Amur tiger still exist, his huge self-governing entity even invite foreign tourists and tiger-lovers from abroad to visit those wild places.
I think this is a must see documentary for those who like Amur tigers.
Many thanks for the documentary. Very interesting.
In order to assist our readers interested in the exchange we had on male bear 'Hlamida' and tigress 'Rashel': can you tell them where the tigress and her cubs feature in the documentary? And male tiger 'Ockarik'?
In the documentary, Mr. Batalov said two bears had been 'crushed' by male tigers. I assume these were black bears? Did male tiger 'Ockarik' make a contribution in this department?
Based on what I heard, I'd say that male Amur tigers 'crushing' bears not only do so to eat. Could the animosity between male Amur tigers and bears be a result of a struggle for dominance in some way?
I want to meet people in the know. Specialists. Another goal is to measure skulls in the natural history museums of Chabarowsk and Vladivostok. I want to talk to people who can open a few doors. If you have ideas, please let me know.
That's the right man you need! Batalov's entity is specialised on wildlife photo-safaris, as well on hunting depending on the type of client. This guys will help you with snowmobiles, trucks, modern equipment, forest bungalow to sleep and accomodate and most important - great knolidge about tigers and forest wildlife. They could bring you really close to wild Amur tigers. I think if you make a safari there, Mr Batalov have the influence and links in Habarovsk to help you to open some doors of Habarovsk museums, where you cane make measurments of skulls you want.
This kind of business is well developed here in British Columbia, many companies offer photo-safari of grizzly bears, cougars (with dogs) and wolves and in same time hunting of moose and bighorn according to the client desire. I have twice used such company for timber wolves in BC. But safaris are never cheap...
Concerning video. The male tiger Ockarik (in Russian mean "the one with eye glasses"), the father of Rashel's cubs here is translated to English nickname "Four-eyes", "Ockarik" and "Four-eyes" is one and same animal - minute 15-17. Batalov explained that Ockarik (Four-eyes) has killed a bear a month ago, so probably he is a kind of "bear-killer" tiger, and that fact is probably also known to Hlamida....now I understand why Hlamida decided to leave Rachel alone... But the father of Rachel's cubs hunt probably only ordinary bears, Hlamida is not ordinary, he is a giant bear...
Unfourtunately Rashel herself and Hlamida are not shown and not mentioned in this video, because the film was probably prepared and finished before Rashel-Hlamida interaction started. Here aside of Ockarik (Four-eyes) are shown other tigers - male Obor, and females Kyia and Baksa.
Bear hunting season is gonna finish in 3 days, so if Hlamida escapes hunters this week (hopefully) and survives, next spring we can wait for the continuation of bear-tigress story. Who knows.
Asbtract:
"Sporadic sightings of the endangered Amur tiger Panthera tigris altaica along the China-Russia border during the late 1990s sparked efforts to expand this subspecies distribution and abundance by restoring potentially suitable habitats in the Changbai Mountains. To guide science-based recovery efforts and provide a baseline for future monitoring of this border population, empirical, quantitative information is needed on what resources and management practices promote or limit the occurrence of tigers in the region. We established a large-scale field camera-trapping network to estimate tiger density, survival and recruitment in the Hunchun Nature Reserve and the surrounding area using an open population spatially explicit capture-recapture model. We then fitted an occupancy model that accounted for detectability and spatial autocorrelation to assess the relative influence of habitat, major prey, disturbance and management on tiger habitat use patterns. Our results show that the ranges of most tigers abut the border with Russia. Tiger densities ranged between 0.20 and 0.27 individuals/100 km2 over the study area; in the Hunchun Nature Reserve, the tiger density was three times higher than that in the surrounding inland forested area. Tiger occupancy was strongly negatively related to heavy cattle grazing, human settlements and roads and was positively associated with sika deer abundance and vegetation cover. These findings can help to identify the drivers of tiger declines and dispersal limits and refine strategies for tiger conservation in the human-dominated transboundary landscape. Progressively alleviating the impacts of cattle and human disturbances on the forest, and simultaneously addressing the economic needs of local communities, should be key priority actions to increase tiger populations. The long-term goal is to expand tiger distribution by improving habitats for large ungulates."
I want to meet people in the know. Specialists. Another goal is to measure skulls in the natural history museums of Chabarowsk and Vladivostok. I want to talk to people who can open a few doors. If you have ideas, please let me know.
That's the right man you need! Batalov's entity is specialised on wildlife photo-safaris, as well on hunting depending on the type of client. This guys will help you with snowmobiles, trucks, modern equipment, forest bungalow to sleep and accomodate and most important - great knolidge about tigers and forest wildlife. They could bring you really close to wild Amur tigers. I think if you make a safari there, Mr Batalov have the influence and links in Habarovsk to help you to open some doors of Habarovsk museums, where you cane make measurments of skulls you want.
This kind of business is well developed here in British Columbia, many companies offer photo-safari of grizzly bears, cougars (with dogs) and wolves and in same time hunting of moose and bighorn according to the client desire. I have twice used such company for timber wolves in BC. But safaris are never cheap...
Concerning video. The male tiger Ockarik (in Russian mean "the one with eye glasses"), the father of Rashel's cubs here is translated to English nickname "Four-eyes", "Ockarik" and "Four-eyes" is one and same animal - minute 15-17. Batalov explained that Ockarik (Four-eyes) has killed a bear a month ago, so probably he is a kind of "bear-killer" tiger, and that fact is probably also known to Hlamida....now I understand why Hlamida decided to leave Rachel alone... But the father of Rachel's cubs hunt probably only ordinary bears, Hlamida is not ordinary, he is a giant bear...
Unfourtunately Rashel herself and Hlamida are not shown and not mentioned in this video, because the film was probably prepared and finished before Rashel-Hlamida interaction started. Here aside of Ockarik (Four-eyes) are shown other tigers - male Obor, and females Kyia and Baksa.
Bear hunting season is gonna finish in 3 days, so if Hlamida escapes hunters this week (hopefully) and survives, next spring we can wait for the continuation of bear-tigress story. Who knows.
[/quote]
Excellent again. As my Russian is far below par, I would appreciate if you could contact him. Tell him someone wants to measure tiger and bear skulls in the Chabarowsk and Vladivostok Natural History museums. As there are hundreds of them, I expect to be busy for quite some time. When done, I would like to visit his place.
As to the tiger with the eye glasses ('Ockarik'). Any particular reason he would need four eyes?
ON THE EDGE OF EXTINCTION - A - THE TIGER (Panthera tigris)
