Skulls, Skeletons, Canines & Claws

[tigerluver]

(03-08-2017, 12:34 PM)Spalea Wrote: About #495 photo:

When I see the pantera atrox's skull size, I think this felid has a really big skull. Considering his size and weight (between 250 and 350 kilos) the difference with the Amur tiger is clearly due to something else. Pantera Atrox is the only one big cat whose average skull size exceeds cheefully the 40 centimeters (46 cms) while the average Amur tiger's skull size in length is 38 cm. Really big difference (20%)...

If the size difference is 20%, the size difference in volume would be (1,2) x (1,2) x (1,2) = 1,728 i.e. 72,8 %. Let us admit 70 %. We are in an other scale...

Was this big cat an intellectual felid ?

Of course this big brain doesn't avoid to this big cat in disappearing.

The final conclusion is correct, although I could add to the route to it.

Firstly, please check out this post.

As shown, (this specimen individual of) P. atrox does indeed have a higher felid encephalization quotient than all other individuals except the lynx specimen. So it'd be very logical and probably accurate to assume P. atrox was a very brainy cat, perhaps the brainiest in history.

However, I would caution against using volume extrapolations. For instance, tigers as compared to lions, have shorter skulls and narrower brain cases (this trait is shared with P. spelaea, causing misclassification by an author). Without a further detailed inspection of the brain cavity, one could understandably come to the conclusions that the lion has the bigger brain. However, Yagamuchi et al. (2009) found otherwise. While the paper did not bother to explain the reasoning, difference in skull structure distribution, such elongation of the snout at the cost of the brain case would traits one should be cognizant of determining which specimen has the bigger brain. Reply

[Spalea]

@tigerluver :

About #512: Thank yu for the link you indicated me and for your explanations ! If I understand well lynx rufus and pantera atrox have the biggest log(brain mass)/log(body mass) ratio because their ratios are the most above of the line...

OK ! But the lynx rufus being an extant feline specy I don't know if we can remark a difference of behaviour compared to the other specy of lynx, "lynx lynx", or with the a extant same-sized felines species like the caracal aurata... A difference of behaviour due to its bigger ratio ? If yes or no answer, can we generalize for pantera atrox ? Reply

[GrizzlyClaws]

African lion

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[GrizzlyClaws]

African lion

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[epaiva]

Jaguar Skull from Estado Cojedes, Venezuela in Museo de Historia Natural La Salle, Caracas, Venezuela. It measures 27 cm long 20 cm wide 

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[GrizzlyClaws]

Indochinese tiger

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[GrizzlyClaws]

African lion

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[GrizzlyClaws]

African lion

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[epaiva]

(02-03-2017, 07:11 AM)GrizzlyClaws Wrote: Asiatic Black bear

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Asiatic Black Bear fangs look a lot bigger than American Black Bear fangs Reply

[epaiva]

American Black Bear

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[GrizzlyClaws]

(03-25-2017, 09:53 PM)epaiva Wrote: Asiatic Black Bear fangs look a lot bigger than American Black Bear fangs

I have noticed that as well. The Asiatic Black bear's fangs are bigger and more robust built than those of their American cousins. Reply

[epaiva]

Puma from Venezuelan Andes. 

@GrizzlyClaws 

How do I measure the claws?

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[GrizzlyClaws]

@epaiva

You have to fully extract it like this one.

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[epaiva]

(03-08-2017, 11:21 PM)tigerluver Wrote:

(03-08-2017, 05:26 PM)epaiva Wrote:

(03-08-2017, 07:26 AM)GrizzlyClaws Wrote:

(03-08-2017, 06:11 AM)epaiva Wrote: @GrizzlyClaws

What is the estimated size head and body length excluding the tail and height at the shoulders of Panthera Atrox, Panthera Fossilis, Panthera Spelaea and Ngandong Tiger?

I think @tigerluver could help you more on this issue, while I am more specialized on the canine/claw.

@tigerluver 

Hope you can help us with this important information

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From this, I would increase the mass of P. spelaea to around 340 kg based on the occurrence of larger femurs and skulls that approach P. fossilis in size.

@tigerluver

Did they find a complete skull of Panthera tigris soloensis? 
It must be huge, the estimated size of that Tiger is Huge larger than all Prehistoric Big Cats Reply

[tigerluver]

@epaiva , No complete skull, but a nearly complete cranium and some mandibles.

The cranium is unimpressive by prehistoric cat terms. It is about 380-390 mm complete (which is on the large side for a modern tiger but not exceptional) and relatively thin for a tiger, though not out of range. Here's the vK cranium (the one on the far right; the mandible in the picture does not belong to the cranium):

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The estimated size is based on a 480 mm femur. 

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The Ngandong femur, as well as the humerus which is of a smaller specimen, are very robust for a tiger and a pantherine in general. When just account for length, the Ngandong specimen would be around 400 kg if we take isometry (general equation is (fossil specimen/extant specimen)^3*weight extant specimen = weight fossil specimen assuming equal proportions) with the wild specimen I modeled above who would've weighed around 240 kg. When we take into account the add robusticity, the 450+ kg range for this specimen is rational. 

I'm working on showing osteological comparisons of extinct giants and their contemporaries which will show similar comparisons as above. Reply