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Pckts · 10-01-2015, 12:45 AM

Great work yet again.
Gotta love those Sunda specimens.
They seem to be all fore quarters.

peter · 10-01-2015, 07:30 AM

(09-30-2015, 08:17 AM)GuateGojira Wrote: @peter, I need your help, again.

I was reading in page No. 172 that Mazák, like me, believed that the Javanese tiger was as large as the South China tiger, based in the skull size. So if there is no problem, I will like to know if you could post the pages about the skull size, body size and weights of the South China tigers?

Besides, I will like to see the page 173 and 176, which are the complement for the Bali tiger. I am using all this data to reconstruct the size (for my comparison image) like the base, because there is so little data.

Finally, I don't want to sound harnessed, but if possible, could you put also the pages of the Caspian and the Indochinese tiger? I have not made the one of the Indochinese tiger so it will be perfect, and although the image of the Caspian tiger is already done, I will like to corroborate the data that Mazák found and presented.

Sorry for disturb you too much, but for tiger records, you are the best source.

For advance, thanks for any help.

It will take some time to scan, edit and post the pages, but I will deliver. I propose to continue in the extinction thread. This one is about sondaica.

GuateGojira · 10-01-2015, 01:32 PM

Ok @peter, thanks for that. I will look forward for the Extinction-Tiger topic.

Just a final note, I was reading page 191 about the large Caspian skull of 385 mm. Mazák clearly stated that the measurements were incorrect but when he investigated about the specimen, it seems that it was destroyed in a earthquake. However, I will like to know how the story ends, so could you post page 192 too? Or at least, tell me what happen at the end. He mentions that the specimen was never properly described and only a few notes exist. I am engaged in the story..... Happy

phatio · 04-06-2016, 02:15 PM

Recently I went hiking to Argupuro mountain located in east java. A beautiful mountain covered with thick jungle.
honestly, I wasn't expecting to saw healthy tropical rainforests here in Java, considering Java as the world's most populous island.
If you ask what did ancient javan jungle look like? well i guess this place is the answer.
according to forest officer, there are healthy wildlife populations still living in there such as deers, wild boars, monkeys, gibbons etc.
when i asked him what kind of predator He has ever met, he said snakes, leopard (spotted and black) and tiger. wait,.. tiger? javan tiger?
yes. he said confidently. in fact only a week ago he saw the striped cat drinking from a lake. what a nice surprise.

I think he is a well educated man who can recognize the difference between the spotted and striped cat, so i take his word seriously.
furthermore he told me there is a valley, deep beneath the jungle where animals often seen gathered together.
in this unnamed place he saw a wild boar being chased by three striped lions. wild lions in the javan jungle? It doesn't make sense.
maybe he saw an adult male javan tiger with short manes? well It's just my guess.
for your information, this is the second report of encounter with striped lion from east java.
the first one coming from neighbouring mountains in Jember back in 2012. coincidence? i dont know.
one thing for sure that this animal is not a leopard, because the witness said the striped lion is much larger than the sumatran tiger he saw in the zoo.

The most interesting part is, according to mr. Didik, the Java tiger researcher, he heard a story from an old hunting man in this area that before the WW II,
the Dutch, fascinated by the beauty of this landscape, wants to make Argopuro as an Africa of Java.
They already brought lions here when the Japanese arrived and then everything becomes chaos.
not sure what happen to the lions maybe they die of starvation or maybe the Dutch released them into the wild. Nobody Knows.

Ok enough of the hearsay now lets get back to Javan tiger.
Thanks to the internet, the report of sightings are increasing. Not only from the news, but now the witnesses themself can easily write on internet.
in my opinion, compared to other extinct tiger (Caspian and Bali tiger) I'm pretty optimistic one day we can catch one specimen alive. I hope so.
here are some pictures from my trip to Argopuro mountain.

*This image is copyright of its original author

this place could be a safe haven for tigers don't you think?

sanjay · 04-06-2016, 07:30 PM

You know @phatio, you always surprise us with your post. This is awesome news and the I think you guys will find the Javan Tiger for sure. Why not make a team of some volunteers and do a proper research in some area ? I mean using camera trap etc ?
History says that animals have been discovered after they have been officially declared extinct. So there is definitely chance for Javan tigers
The story told by these locals can not be completely wrong. Java is beautiful place and your picture portrait it perfectly. Hope to see some stripe cat in this beautiful jungle of java

All the best buddy Like

phatio · 04-07-2016, 10:53 AM

Thanks for your support, Sanjay.
About camera trap, We already did that. The authority and wildlife officials have installed 5 camera traps in Meru Betiri National Park back (1997 and 2011/2012) and 15 more in Bromo Tengger Semeru National Park (2014) but so far failed to photograph a single tiger.
The good news is they found other rare animals still roaming in there such as javanese yellow-necked weasel, Javan Leopard and other endemic animals.

Last January they added 10 more Camera trap in BTS NP to increase the chances of capturing wild animals.

*This image is copyright of its original author

yes i agree with you Sanjay, although small, there is definitely chances for Javan tigers coming back from extiction.
I can only imagine if only large organisation such as Panthera and WWF support us with camera trap and thermal imaging camera just like they use in Bhutan (lost land of the tiger), then together we create an expedition teams to find the extinct tiger, and then finally we can catch one, it would be mind blowing don't you think.
Because the evidence is real, from droppings and paw prints to claw marks on trees, suggests that the striped cats are still exist somewhere deep beneath the remote Javan jungle.

*This image is copyright of its original author

13 cm wide claw mark

*This image is copyright of its original author

6 cm big cat's droppings

*This image is copyright of its original author

paw print of a wild big cat

Can the elusive cats be found before they really extinct? now We are in a race against time ...

Pckts · 04-07-2016, 09:14 PM

That would be amazing if we could find some undeniable proof of their existence. Tfs @phatio

Also, a question about the paw print.
Wouldn't they be able to tell the species by the pug mark?

peter · 04-07-2016, 11:05 PM

Great posts, Phatio. Your English is excellent as well.

I hope they will never find the striped lions of Argupuro.

Can you contact me?

Tshokwane · 04-07-2016, 11:35 PM

@phatio Amazing images of the landscape and that claw mark in the tree is awesome.

Great information as well, thanks for sharing it with us.

phatio · 04-08-2016, 09:12 AM

Thanks guys, I promise you I will share everything I know about the Indonesian tigers considering they are one of the least studied subspecies.
@peter : I'm pretty sure there are no striped lions, it's just adult male javan tiger with long ruff. Remember the article on AVA few years ago (your tiger extinction thread) , which said the captive male javan tigers has the longest facial ruff compared to other tigers. in fact it was posted by yourself if I remember correctly.

@Pckts : that pug mark definitely belongs to big cat. the question is which big cat it is? because java also has leopards.
unfortunately they, the expedition teams, didn't tell the width of the pug mark, but they said that the pug mark is way larger than other pug mark they often found near Ranu Tompe, the hidden lake of Semeru mountain.

a few pictures of the Java tiger ( Panthera sondaica )

watch the stripe pattern and facial marks closely, then you'll realise actualy it is easy to distinguish between javan tiger and other tiger.
the stripes are numerous with very thin line and the facial marks seems like combination between striped and spotted cat, a sign of an early evolution?
I guess so, imo.

*This image is copyright of its original author

Above all they have the longest body proportions compared to other tigers. again, this is just my opinion based from those pictures.
as peter said, they are different breed of tigers. i would like to call them the ancient tiger.

tigerluver · 07-23-2016, 05:47 AM

Reminiscing at the excellence of this thread.

For my own reasons, I had to revisit the Gondol tiger (the large Balinese male tiger). Though I noticed the paper was never shared here. So, see attached friends.

P.T.Sondaica · 10-05-2016, 09:09 AM

(04-08-2016, 09:12 AM)phatio Wrote: Thanks guys, I promise you I will share everything I know about the Indonesian tigers considering they are one of the least studied subspecies.
@peter : I'm pretty sure there are no striped lions, it's just adult male javan tiger with long ruff. Remember the article on AVA few years ago (your tiger extinction thread) , which said the captive male javan tigers has the longest facial ruff compared to other tigers. in fact it was posted by yourself if I remember correctly.

@Pckts : that pug mark definitely belongs to big cat. the question is which big cat it is? because java also has leopards.

Kabar terbaru sepuh Didik berhasil menemukan foto terbaru minggu kemarin dan sangat jelas..
unfortunately they, the expedition teams, didn't tell the width of the pug mark, but they said that the pug mark is way larger than other pug mark they often found near Ranu Tompe, the hidden lake of Semeru mountain.

a few pictures of the Java tiger ( Panthera sondaica )

watch the stripe pattern and facial marks closely, then you'll realise actualy it is easy to distinguish between javan tiger and other tiger.
the stripes are numerous with very thin line and the facial marks seems like combination between striped and spotted cat, a sign of an early evolution?
I guess so, imo.

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

Above all they have the longest body proportions compared to other tigers. again, this is just my opinion based from those pictures.
as peter said, they are different breed of tigers. i would like to call them the ancient tiger.

Kabar terbaru sepuh didik berhasil menemukan foto sangat jelas mnggu lalu

sanjay · 11-28-2016, 08:39 PM

Credit to @P.T.Sondaica for this information and image

That is from Kendeng shoot cattle in 1953 by Mr. Karno hunter from Surabaya east, java. Shoot for killing cattle residents with a shot straight claws and break the cow's head
huge male Javan tiger killed by hunter Karno in Surabaya

huge male Javan tiger killed by hunter Karno in Surabaya

*This image is copyright of its original author

Estimated weight for this tiger was 200 kg by Didik Raharyono

sanjay · 11-28-2016, 11:40 PM

Credit to @P.T.Sondaica for this information

*This image is copyright of its original author

1997 Expedition nature lover, plaster cast of the big cat from Meru National Park. Size is 26x28 cm, documented by Didik Raharyono
(translated from Malay (Indonesian language) )
edit: According to Didik, This traces may be of Male Javan tiger.

sanjay · 02-25-2017, 09:01 AM

Credit to @P.T.Sondaica for this Image

*This image is copyright of its original author

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