Lions of Manyeleti

[criollo2mil]

(05-29-2023, 10:02 PM)Gavskrr Wrote: Curious situations mentioned in the video: Mbiri pride may be divided and Male s8/imbali with a lioness that some assume is from the nharu pride

Some interesting comments from Tristan regarding the Talamatis as well.   Seems they’re still having mis communications about which is the core and which is the breakways.   

No consistency between the different reserves. Reply

[Gavskrr]

(05-29-2023, 10:11 PM)afortich Wrote:

(05-29-2023, 10:02 PM)Gavskrr Wrote: Curious situations mentioned in the video: Mbiri pride may be divided and Male s8/imbali with a lioness that some assume is from the nharu pride

Hey bro, when trying to watch posted video, it gives me an error. It could be on my side or maybe something wrong with the link.

I think that was the link, now it's working thanks for letting me know Reply

[Cath2020]

(05-29-2023, 10:52 PM)criollo2mil Wrote:

(05-29-2023, 10:02 PM)Gavskrr Wrote: Curious situations mentioned in the video: Mbiri pride may be divided and Male s8/imbali with a lioness that some assume is from the nharu pride

Some interesting comments from Tristan regarding the Talamatis as well.   Seems they’re still having mis communications about which is the core and which is the breakways.   

No consistency between the different reserves.

Yes, I noticed.  I do not agree with Tristan, that the breakaway name should be given to the younger generation, when it was the older lionesses that broke away.  The lions that broke away from the main pride should always be the breakaway pride.  Just like Mala Mala says the Nkuhuma Lionesses, initially 2, were the breakaway lionesses....yet they were the older ones and they did, in fact, break away from the rest of the pride.  I don't understand how he could say it should be the other way around.  Would be strange. Reply

[Tr1x24]

(05-30-2023, 02:38 AM)Cath2020 Wrote: Yes, I noticed.  I do not agree with Tristan, that the breakaway name should be given to the younger generation, when it was the older lionesses that broke away.  The lions that broke away from the main pride should always be the breakaway pride.  Just like Mala Mala says the Nkuhuma Lionesses, initially 2, were the breakaway lionesses....yet they were the older ones and they did, in fact, break away from the rest of the pride.  I don't understand how he could say it should be the other way around.  Would be strange.

I was saying this before already.

How did we determined which group breakaway? You could also say that younger females breakaways because they didnt accept new male and moved off from their natal area.

Most of adult females accepted new territorial male in the area and stayed in their core territory, while younger females went nomadic, didnt accept new males and will settle in new area.

By all "rules" now, group with S8 male should be called core.

But whatever, lodges will decide how they will call them in the end. Reply

[Cath2020]

(05-30-2023, 03:46 AM)Tr1x24 Wrote:

(05-30-2023, 02:38 AM)Cath2020 Wrote: Yes, I noticed.  I do not agree with Tristan, that the breakaway name should be given to the younger generation, when it was the older lionesses that broke away.  The lions that broke away from the main pride should always be the breakaway pride.  Just like Mala Mala says the Nkuhuma Lionesses, initially 2, were the breakaway lionesses....yet they were the older ones and they did, in fact, break away from the rest of the pride.  I don't understand how he could say it should be the other way around.  Would be strange.

I was saying this before already.

How did we determined which group breakaway? You could also say that younger females breakaways because they didnt accept new male and moved off from their natal area.

Most of adult females accepted new territorial male in the area and stayed in their core territory, while younger females went nomadic, didnt accept new males and will settle in new area.

By all "rules" now, group with S8 male should be called core.

But whatever, lodges will decide how they will call them in the end.

Well, I noticed that the guides were saying way back that 3 lionesses (no mention of ages...not that that would matter) broke away from the main pride and went to the S8 Male.... I looked back and the wording a safari company (Pungwei) made seemed to indicate it was the lionesses that broke away and wondered if they later would join the main pride OR form a NEW one.  This wording clearly indicates that they did the breakaway action and that they might form a new pride.  So, even among some guides in the Manyaleti, there is no agreement with Tristan.  Which one should be the breakaway pride now?  Who has the final say?  Interesting.

 

Here is the post from 10/21 made by Tonpa with an Ig link to Pungwei and quoted:

"The beautiful and impressive Mbali Male is making his presence know in the Manyeleti. He has joined up with three lionesses from the Talamati Pride and is currently mating with them, so expect to see lots of Cubs from this liaison in a few short months. The Mbali pride was found recently in the south-east of the reserve with 21 members, including this handsome fellow. We’ll have to see what happens with the Talamati lionesses and whether they rejoin their pride or form a new one." Reply

[Ttimemarti]

(05-30-2023, 07:55 PM)Cath2020 Wrote:

(05-30-2023, 03:46 AM)Tr1x24 Wrote:

(05-30-2023, 02:38 AM)Cath2020 Wrote: Yes, I noticed.  I do not agree with Tristan, that the breakaway name should be given to the younger generation, when it was the older lionesses that broke away.  The lions that broke away from the main pride should always be the breakaway pride.  Just like Mala Mala says the Nkuhuma Lionesses, initially 2, were the breakaway lionesses....yet they were the older ones and they did, in fact, break away from the rest of the pride.  I don't understand how he could say it should be the other way around.  Would be strange.

I was saying this before already.

How did we determined which group breakaway? You could also say that younger females breakaways because they didnt accept new male and moved off from their natal area.

Most of adult females accepted new territorial male in the area and stayed in their core territory, while younger females went nomadic, didnt accept new males and will settle in new area.

By all "rules" now, group with S8 male should be called core.

But whatever, lodges will decide how they will call them in the end.

Well, I noticed that the guides were saying way back that 3 lionesses (no mention of ages...not that that would matter) broke away from the main pride and went to the S8 Male.... I looked back and the wording a safari company (Pungwei) made seemed to indicate it was the lionesses that broke away and wondered if they later would join the main pride OR form a NEW one.  This wording clearly indicates that they did the breakaway action and that they might form a new pride.  So, even among some guides in the Manyaleti, there is no agreement with Tristan.  Which one should be the breakaway pride now?  Who has the final say?  Interesting.

 

Here is the post from 10/21 made by Tonpa with an Ig link to Pungwei and quoted:

"The beautiful and impressive Mbali Male is making his presence know in the Manyeleti. He has joined up with three lionesses from the Talamati Pride and is currently mating with them, so expect to see lots of Cubs from this liaison in a few short months. The Mbali pride was found recently in the south-east of the reserve with 21 members, including this handsome fellow. We’ll have to see what happens with the Talamati lionesses and whether they rejoin their pride or form a new one."

Yeah 3 girls left darkmane and joined S8 so they left the pride “broke away” to join the S8/Imabli male that’s the way I see it Reply

[NLAL11]

(05-30-2023, 07:55 PM)Cath2020 Wrote:

(05-30-2023, 03:46 AM)Tr1x24 Wrote:

(05-30-2023, 02:38 AM)Cath2020 Wrote: Yes, I noticed.  I do not agree with Tristan, that the breakaway name should be given to the younger generation, when it was the older lionesses that broke away.  The lions that broke away from the main pride should always be the breakaway pride.  Just like Mala Mala says the Nkuhuma Lionesses, initially 2, were the breakaway lionesses....yet they were the older ones and they did, in fact, break away from the rest of the pride.  I don't understand how he could say it should be the other way around.  Would be strange.

I was saying this before already.

How did we determined which group breakaway? You could also say that younger females breakaways because they didnt accept new male and moved off from their natal area.

Most of adult females accepted new territorial male in the area and stayed in their core territory, while younger females went nomadic, didnt accept new males and will settle in new area.

By all "rules" now, group with S8 male should be called core.

But whatever, lodges will decide how they will call them in the end.

Well, I noticed that the guides were saying way back that 3 lionesses (no mention of ages...not that that would matter) broke away from the main pride and went to the S8 Male.... I looked back and the wording a safari company (Pungwei) made seemed to indicate it was the lionesses that broke away and wondered if they later would join the main pride OR form a NEW one.  This wording clearly indicates that they did the breakaway action and that they might form a new pride.  So, even among some guides in the Manyaleti, there is no agreement with Tristan.  Which one should be the breakaway pride now?  Who has the final say?  Interesting.

 

Here is the post from 10/21 made by Tonpa with an Ig link to Pungwei and quoted:

"The beautiful and impressive Mbali Male is making his presence know in the Manyeleti. He has joined up with three lionesses from the Talamati Pride and is currently mating with them, so expect to see lots of Cubs from this liaison in a few short months. The Mbali pride was found recently in the south-east of the reserve with 21 members, including this handsome fellow. We’ll have to see what happens with the Talamati lionesses and whether they rejoin their pride or form a new one."

So are we just ignoring all the reasons Tristan gave in the video? Yes, maybe initially it looked like the three girls that accepted S8 were forming a breakaway pride. But things changed. S8 took over Dark Mane's territory, DM was displaced and the other group ended up going nomadic. This is behaviour typically attributed to the breakaway group. 

Plus as he said, they have now had cubs. They are the more stable group. Of course anything can happen, but we still don't know where the 5 lionesses will settle down. The main reason given is that because the eldest lionesses went with them, they are the core pride. But how much longer is Silver Eye's sister going to be around? She's fifteen, which means she will probably pass away this year. What if the group of 5 splits into more groups? What if they disappear into Kruger? Does the Talamati name disappear with them? Lot's of questions and ifs. This is another reason it makes much more sense for the lionesses with the Imbali male to remain as the Talamati Pride.

So you can talk about the 'initial wording' of the rangers, but that was almost two years ago now. The situation looks very different from then. Reply

[Tr1x24]

(05-31-2023, 02:24 PM)NLAL11 Wrote: Yes, maybe initially it looked like the three girls that accepted S8 were forming a breakaway pride. But things changed. S8 took over Dark Mane's territory, DM was displaced and the other group ended up going nomadic. This is behaviour typically attributed to the breakaway group. 

Exactly. Reply

[criollo2mil]

(05-31-2023, 02:24 PM)NLAL11 Wrote:

(05-30-2023, 07:55 PM)Cath2020 Wrote:

(05-30-2023, 03:46 AM)Tr1x24 Wrote:

(05-30-2023, 02:38 AM)Cath2020 Wrote: Yes, I noticed.  I do not agree with Tristan, that the breakaway name should be given to the younger generation, when it was the older lionesses that broke away.  The lions that broke away from the main pride should always be the breakaway pride.  Just like Mala Mala says the Nkuhuma Lionesses, initially 2, were the breakaway lionesses....yet they were the older ones and they did, in fact, break away from the rest of the pride.  I don't understand how he could say it should be the other way around.  Would be strange.

I was saying this before already.

How did we determined which group breakaway? You could also say that younger females breakaways because they didnt accept new male and moved off from their natal area.

Most of adult females accepted new territorial male in the area and stayed in their core territory, while younger females went nomadic, didnt accept new males and will settle in new area.

By all "rules" now, group with S8 male should be called core.

But whatever, lodges will decide how they will call them in the end.

Well, I noticed that the guides were saying way back that 3 lionesses (no mention of ages...not that that would matter) broke away from the main pride and went to the S8 Male.... I looked back and the wording a safari company (Pungwei) made seemed to indicate it was the lionesses that broke away and wondered if they later would join the main pride OR form a NEW one.  This wording clearly indicates that they did the breakaway action and that they might form a new pride.  So, even among some guides in the Manyaleti, there is no agreement with Tristan.  Which one should be the breakaway pride now?  Who has the final say?  Interesting.

 

Here is the post from 10/21 made by Tonpa with an Ig link to Pungwei and quoted:

"The beautiful and impressive Mbali Male is making his presence know in the Manyeleti. He has joined up with three lionesses from the Talamati Pride and is currently mating with them, so expect to see lots of Cubs from this liaison in a few short months. The Mbali pride was found recently in the south-east of the reserve with 21 members, including this handsome fellow. We’ll have to see what happens with the Talamati lionesses and whether they rejoin their pride or form a new one."

So are we just ignoring all the reasons Tristan gave in the video? Yes, maybe initially it looked like the three girls that accepted S8 were forming a breakaway pride. But things changed. S8 took over Dark Mane's territory, DM was displaced and the other group ended up going nomadic. This is behaviour typically attributed to the breakaway group. 

Plus as he said, they have now had cubs. They are the more stable group. Of course anything can happen, but we still don't know where the 5 lionesses will settle down. The main reason given is that because the eldest lionesses went with them, they are the core pride. But how much longer is Silver Eye's sister going to be around? She's fifteen, which means she will probably pass away this year. What if the group of 5 splits into more groups? What if they disappear into Kruger? Does the Talamati name disappear with them? Lot's of questions and ifs. This is another reason it makes much more sense for the lionesses with the Imbali male to remain as the Talamati Pride.

So you can talk about the 'initial wording' of the rangers, but that was almost two years ago now. The situation looks very different from then.

We are not ignoring that.   We have spoken about that here quite extensively.   My beef regardless of circumstances is the inconsistency.  

The Sabi sand reserves call them Talamati.   The Manyeleti side calling them breakaways.   

That’s the problem.   It doesn’t matter what we think the correct name should be….but it should be ONE name.  Both prides can’t be called core or both be called breakaways.  JS.  

At first I sided with the sub adult and the queen being core…over time as they went nomadic my feelings changed because of the compelling concern for the loss of the Talamati name in the northern SS region.    In reflecting back and looking at the twist and turns I have no issue if they flipped the names and decided to keep the core as the S8 girls.    But still.    Be consistent. Reply

[GhostCatP-22]

The 2 groups have an equal claim to the talamati name. What’s wrong with using an identifier when talking about the 2 groups? Example : DM talamati group, nomadic talamatis, westerns talamatis, S8 talamati group, Djuma etc etc.
 This “breakaway” situation is happening in a unique way. 

 Nkuhuma and Dwizhala were seen following a lioness, was that one of their sisters looking for S8?
The 2 boys are with their other sisters now? Reply

[NLAL11]

@criollo2mil I'm not saying you specifically but there are definitely people ignoring the facts stated in that video. Lots of mental gymnastics going on.

You're right. The inconsistency is the most frustrating thing. The Manyeleti refer to S8's group as the Talamati pride. Londolozi have referred to the nomadic group as the breakaways. So that's consistent. But the Djuma/WildEarth rangers keep calling S8's lionesses breakaways. Which is strange when they no longer see the other group. If S8's group were indeed the breakaway, it would be up to those rangers to rename them. So why haven't they?

They should just call S8's group the Talamatis, and whichever reserve the nomads settle down in will give them a name. Like what usually happens. Reply

[Ttimemarti]

(05-31-2023, 06:58 PM)NLAL11 Wrote: @criollo2mil I'm not saying you specifically but there are definitely people ignoring the facts stated in that video. Lots of mental gymnastics going on.

You're right. The inconsistency is the most frustrating thing. The Manyeleti refer to S8's group as the Talamati pride. Londolozi have referred to the nomadic group as the breakaways. So that's consistent. But the Djuma/WildEarth rangers keep calling S8's lionesses breakaways. Which is strange when they no longer see the other group. If S8's group were indeed the breakaway, it would be up to those rangers to rename them. So why haven't they?

They should just call S8's group the Talamatis, and whichever reserve the nomads settle down in will give them a name. Like what usually happens.

The pride doesn’t stay in manyeleti so it would be normal for them to misidentify the pride BUT it’s not that serious people have been calling S8s group the breakaway pride since he took over why change now? Honestly doesn’t make sense the Talamati pride had 1 Dominant Male 5 Females 9 Subadults 3 Males 6 Females 3 Females left the pride end of story Reply

[criollo2mil]

Ncila, Lambile and members of the Mbiri Pride.   The three younger cubs look very good.   Lambile doesn’t look as badly as recent times but not as good as he has been.   Ncila however is looking amazingly well and is reestablishing his status

EDIT : It’s Mandevu


Credit:  vestment Mfumo Reply

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[criollo2mil]

New footage posted by Vesment this afternoon has hit me with a huge gut punch!

It reveals Lambile is actually quite frail….wasting away rapidly and seems as bad as ever to me.


I’m afraid my boy won’t stay with us beyond next couple of months.   His rapid decline doesn’t seem recoverable at this stage.

He’s barely 7 1/2 years old

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[GhostCatP-22]

Oh poor Lambile! Reminds me of Mohawk/Blondie Avoca and how even tho he was sick he was a faithful loyal brother that pushed hisself to patrol with and back up Mohawk. I think similar is happening with Lambile. He’s pushing so hard to patrol and keep their territory safe. Lambile and Mandevu are extremely bonded and loyal. 
  Where is Ncila? He needs to get off his butt and start patrolling with his brothers and help protect the territory. Reply