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How Megalodon possibly looked like
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 (06-22-2022, 05:49 AM)GuateGojira Wrote:(06-22-2022, 01:10 AM)Semyon Wrote: If you are not interested in this animal at all, don't reply and don't post erroneous claims. You don't know what you're talking about, do you ? Which people investigating this do you refer ? Pimiento ? Shimada ? Cooper ? Kent ? Godfrey ? Ferrón ? Perez ? Greenfield ? Siversson ?... Because those are the people actually actively working as academics on this genus since two decades, and none of them are claiming about a new body plan. The sculpture at the Smithsonian is based on mako (following Brett Kent and Hans Sue suggestions) but is still cruisiform very much like a great white shark. From what I've seen, the people you refer are deviant users, comments sections and tweets filled with wishful thinking, no data, no review, no actual work. You don't even check the links and data provided so you're clearly not serious nor an academic and certainly less interesting to talk with than investigating about this fascinating genus. You can't even properly list the actual updated status about phylogeny (Greenfield 2022), body size (Perez 2021), metabolism (Ferrón 2017)... so please either you check the actual data or don't argue there is a new form to be accepted because this is simply wrong.
https://dinoproject.blogs.bristol.ac.uk/...harkweek1/
Jack Cooper 2020 comment about meg appearance prior to the publication of his work : Sorry to disappoint you folks, but the idea of Megalodon sharing many of the same basic characteristics as the great white is still the most plausible theory with regards to its appearance, even though their evolutionary histories were different (Fig. 4). Other theories of its appearance do exist. For example, some think it might have had similar appearances to basking sharks or sand tiger sharks. Given the complete lack of dental similarity (it’s very easy to tell from teeth what a shark was eating) and the fact that the body structure of sand tigers in particular wouldn’t be very viable for a giant, I personally find those theories to be nonsense. To my knowledge, no scientists studying Megalodon have ever seriously considered them. They’re mostly limited to internet comment sections and Deviantart interpretations. It’s fun to speculate for sure, but I like my interpretations to be based primarily around the science. And there has been some truly wonderful science around this animal, which has allowed us to discover so much about how they lived…
@GuateGojira
https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/scia...1650526908 https://www.iflscience.com/megalodon-tee...hain-64167 https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/sciadv.add2674 https://www.princeton.edu/news/2022/06/2...-predators New study indicates megatooth sharks occupied a higher trophic position than any marine predator extant or extinct on record so far. Not interesting you said right ? 
One of the best media reconstructions I've seen, my favorite aswell
 *This image is copyright of its original author Source https://www.instagram.com/p/CaT--J5lLbZ/...mMyMTA2M2Y=  (01-10-2022, 12:08 PM)Ediacaran Wrote: There are very well preserved fossils of Cretalamna, Megalodon's directly ancestral species via anagenesis. If you applied allometry to our knowledge of what Cretalamna looked like, I figure that would be a close approximation of Megalodon's real life appearance. The shark fossil picture you posted isn't Cretalamna, it is the carcharhiniform Pteroscyllium signeuxi from Lebanon. O. Megalodon probably looked like an oversized lamnoid shark, not as slender as the makos or the great white shark but closer in appearance to the Lamna genus (porbeagle and salmon shark). Paleoartists needs to stop using the great white shark countershading on O. Megalodon since it lived in coastal tropical/subtropical seas unlike the great white sharks that are more adapted to temperate water.  *This image is copyright of its original author Here is a well-preserved fossilized skull of Cosmopolitodus hastalis from Peru, this shark is closely related to the great white shark (unlike O. Megalodon) but it was a bit larger and was also contemporary of O. Megalodon.  *This image is copyright of its original author
(10-12-2019, 01:19 PM)Shadow Wrote: What is the source of that photo. I think, that it´s photoshopped by someone, that doesn´t look at all natural. But with photoshop something like that photo can be made.It's hard to say whether or not the photo is photoshopped, since it's impossible to verify the source. However, I think it's important to understand that no matter how big or powerful a creature is, it can still be vulnerable to attack by smaller, more agile predators. Orcas have proven that they can take down whales much bigger than a megalodon, so it's reasonable to assume that they could have posed a threat to megalodon if they managed to catch it off guard. (06-22-2022, 12:34 PM)Semyon Wrote:(06-22-2022, 05:49 AM)GuateGojira Wrote:(06-22-2022, 01:10 AM)Semyon Wrote: If you are not interested in this animal at all, don't reply and don't post erroneous soga miniatures.  (06-07-2023, 08:10 AM)MatijaSever Wrote:(10-12-2019, 01:19 PM)Shadow Wrote: What is the source of that photo. I think, that it´s photoshopped by someone, that doesn´t look at all natural. But with photoshop something like that photo can be made.It's hard to say whether or not the photo is photoshopped, since it's impossible to verify the source. However, I think it's important to understand that no matter how big or powerful a creature is, it can still be vulnerable to attack by smaller, more agile predators. Orcas have proven that they can take down whales much bigger than a megalodon, so it's reasonable to assume that they could have posed a threat to megalodon if they managed to catch it off guard. Orcas would have posed absolutely zero threat to a megalodon. Lets be real here. Even large pods of Orcas in extremely rare cases would attack a bull sperm whale. Studies, as well as numerous observations made by marine biologists have shown that even single Humpback whales dominate Orca pods in many interactions and are known to chase away Orca pods and save other animals from Orca attacks. Now imagine what a megalodon would do. Even large pods of Orcas would flee if they sensed a megalodon in the vicinity. The megalodon is simply too massive, too powerful, too formidable and just too armed for even a large pod of Orcas to risk attacking. Orcas would spend their lives avoiding the megalodon. New studies have shown that the megalodon occupied the absolute highest position in the food-chain, higher than any other ocean predator ever, living or extinct. Their trophic position was so high that they even killed and ate other large predators and predators-of-predators. It was the undisputed alpha predator of the ocean and completely dominated the food-chain. Even the Livyatan Melvillei would have been in danger from megalodon attacks. The studies also show that megalodon was so huge, that it could've snacked on modern killer whales and fully consume the largest killer whales in just five quick bites. You need to realize that the "bigger whales" that Orcas have killed, do not have anywhere near the same power, bite-force, weaponry or killing abilities/prowess as the megalodon. Orcas in rare cases have attacked large, non-predatory whales which feed on plankton, small fish and crustaceans. Whereas the megalodon was a gigantic apex predator that dominated the ocean and basically killed and ate all other creatures it wanted to for a living. Huge difference. 
@Apex Titan
You told at the previous post " New studies have shown that the megalodon occupied the absolute highest position in the food-chain " and so on... Which ones ? I don't want to be a negationist of the Megalodon's power, but allow me to be a little bit sceptic. I believe we don't stop to overestimate its power. For example in the next "Megalodon 2" movie (with Jason Statham), we clearly see at the beginning that the mid-length of the t.-rex swallowed by the meg barely reaches the width of the jaws. Thus in this movie it's clearly spoken about a 50 meters-long megalodon. Even on wikipedia we can read " While regarded as one of the largest and most powerful predators to have ever lived, the megalodon is only known from fragmentary remains, and its appearance and maximum size are uncertain ". What are the proofs of the megalodon existenz ? Its teeth only. It's a shark, therefore a cartilaginous fish. Therefore, correct me if I am wrong, but we have never discover an entire megalodon's skeleton. Thus we are ceaselessly speculate about its size, and of course its apex-predatory abilities or capacities. What are the proofs that the biggest whales of the Pliocene period were constantly hunted, and slaugthered, by the megalodon ? Crushed bones ? Believe me I don't want to denigrate or destroy the apex predator myth. Megalodon was an apex predator. But even an apex predator can be wounded or even killed against a big and huge opponent. Never, during the life on Earth history, an apex predator spent its whole life wiping out its preys and rivals (other predators) as you seem to describe it. Life on Earth isn't an uninterrupted killing game... Except for the human being today, but we will pay for that (abuses, atrocities and so on) ! If the megalodon have ruled into the sea during so much time (20 millions years ?), thus you can be sure it didn't spend its time slaughtering the marine life. For your pleasure: And to finish this post with a joke, we never cease to overinflationate some fantasized ghost's power. It's a clinical need for our so childish and pitiful human specy. Thus even the meg can be depicted as a poor sardine for the most super supra mega creature ever imagined by the man: Godzilla ! Let us be serious: animal life is amazing, fascinating, exciting but only because there has never been absolute master (monster ?) of the food chain like the extant human specy : lethal industry, constant destruction of the wild biotops, massive vaccination and poisoning and so on. (06-16-2023, 02:28 PM)Spalea Wrote: @Apex Titan You misunderstood me. I'm not saying the megalodon was this completely invincible creature that can never be injured or something. What I was saying is that overall, the megalodon was the greatest apex predator to have ever lived and dominated the ocean and was at the very pinnacle of the food-chain. But that doesn't mean it swam around constantly killing every single creature it encountered. Obviously, I know this is not the case. Just like how modern day apex predators don't constantly go around slaughtering everything they see. There's no point of referencing a Hollywood movie, which almost always sensationalizes the sizes of large predators. Of course the megalodon wasn't 50 meters in length. In reality, the megalodon grew up to 20 meters (65 feet) in length: "A more reliable way of estimating the size of megalodon shows the extinct shark may have been bigger than previously thought, measuring up to 65 feet, nearly the length of two school buses." https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/20...161015.htm I know the way I worded my previous post may look like I'm saying the megalodon was this crazy, blood-lusted rogue killing machine that always killed anything and everything it came across. But no, I'm not, let me be more specific and post the reports/studies. New studies confirmed that megalodon was even bigger and badder than previously thought: Megalodon Sat Higher Up The Food Chain Than Any Other Ocean Predator Ever Everything was a catch of the day to the megalodons. The megalodon – aka megatooth shark, Otodus megalodon – was a mighty beast that once roamed the ancient oceans. They were larger than any other predatory sharks at the time, reaching a whopping 16 meters (52 feet). For comparison, the current biggest predatory fish in the ocean are female white sharks, averaging 4.5 meters (15 feet). Unfortunately for them (but fortunately for many marine animals), the megalodon went extinct 3.6 million years ago. In a new study published in Science Advances, scientists revealed that the megalodon occupied the highest trophic level (the position of an organism in a food web) than any other ocean predator, living or extinct. https://www.iflscience.com/megalodon-tee...hain-64167 What did Megalodon eat? Anything it wanted — including other predators New Princeton research shows that prehistoric megatooth sharks, the biggest sharks that ever lived, were apex predators at the highest level ever measured. A team of Princeton researchers has now discovered clear evidence that Megalodon and some of its ancestors were at the very highest rung of the prehistoric food chain – what scientists call the highest “trophic level.” Indeed, their trophic signature is so high that they must have eaten other predators and predators-of-predators in a complicated food web, say the researchers. https://www.princeton.edu/news/2022/06/2...-predators https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/scia...ookieSet=1 https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/sciadv.add2674 The extinct shark Otodus megalodon was a transoceanic superpredator: Inferences from 3D modeling We used an exceptionally well-preserved fossil to create the first three-dimensional model of the body of this giant shark and used it to infer its movement and feeding ecology. We estimate that an adult O. megalodon could cruise at faster absolute speeds than any shark species today and fully consume prey the size of modern apex predators. A dietary preference for large prey potentially enabled O. megalodon to minimize competition and provided a constant source of energy to fuel prolonged migrations without further feeding. Together, our results suggest that O. megalodon played an important ecological role as a transoceanic superpredator. Hence, its extinction likely had large impacts on global nutrient transfer and trophic food webs. https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/sciadv.abm9424 Ancient megalodon was so massive it could've snacked on killer whales, scientists say We're going to need a bigger boat — maybe something like a cruise ship. Scientists recently discovered just how massive an ancient shark might've been. It is freaking staggering. The otodus megalodon — you know, the infamous meg you've likely heard of — was so large it could have snacked on orcas, colloquially known as killer whales. That's according to a new study, published in Science Advances, that made a 3D model of what the shark likely looked like by using an "exceptionally well-preserved fossil." In short, and I'm taking some liberties here, the researchers concluded the megalodon was an absolute unit that was the unquestioned master of the entire ocean. "We estimate that an adult O. megalodon could cruise at faster absolute speeds than any shark species today and fully consume prey the size of modern apex predators," the researchers wrote. Just how big the megalodon was is pretty difficult to comprehend. The shark, which cruised Earth 23 to 2.6 million years ago, likely could've swallowed a large great white in a single bite. Researchers think a large megalodon grew up to 20 meters long. That's a shark nearly the size of an 18-wheeler. It could eat the largest current-day killer whale (around 26 feet) in five quick bites, one of the researchers wrote. The new 3D model was an important step forward in researching the megalodon, which has remained somewhat of a mystery to scientists. Their bodies were largely made of cartilage, which means fossils — except for massive teeth — are rare. But now we have a better picture of just how massive, and impressive, the ancient animals really were. https://sea.mashable.com/life/21190/anci...ntists-say No surprise then that recent research by palaeontologists at Princeton University in the US has shown that megalodon ate whatever it wanted – including other predators. The results of the research, published in Science Advances, indicate this ancient shark was an apex predator with no comparison in all of Earth’s history. “If Megalodon existed in the modern ocean, it would thoroughly change humans’ interaction with the marine environment,” adds senior author Danny Sigman, professor of geological and geophysical sciences at Princeton. Read the full report for more details: https://cosmosmagazine.com/history/megal...-predator/ https://www.independent.co.uk/news/scien...07703.html New research analyzing teeth from this ancient creature has revealed that the megalodon was the most apex of apex predators. By studying the levels of nitrogen isotopes present in cells, scientists can figure out where a creature was in the food chain – because of the way the nitrogen is processed and excreted, nitrogen-15 builds up the higher in the food chain you go. What the enamel on the megalodon (Otodus megalodon) teeth shows is high levels of nitrogen-15 and a place at the very top of that food chain. In fact, the food chain would have had to be several levels higher than it is today to accommodate the megalodon, which lived from around 23 million years ago to around 3.6 million years ago. "We're used to thinking of the largest species – blue whales, whale sharks, even elephants and diplodocuses – as filter feeders or herbivores, not predators," says biogeochemist Emma Kast, from the University of Cambridge in the UK. "But megalodon and the other megatooth sharks were genuinely enormous carnivores that ate other predators, and meg went extinct only a few million years ago." https://www.sciencealert.com/megalodons-...hest-level Now, maybe I posted too much of the same reports..... but you get the picture. All in all, the most recent studies confirm that megalodon was indeed the greatest and most formidable apex predator to have ever lived. Due to its sheer colossal size, enormous power and predatory abilties etc, it was the apex predator of apex predators and ruled the ocean. I don't see how this fact can be disputed now. Seriously, what other creature could have possibly challenged a gigantic 52-65 ft predatory shark? The megalodon's jaws and teeth were perfectly designed to easily chomp and slice right through even the thickest blubber of the largest whales. Making even the Livyatan Melvillei (which was smaller than Megalodon) highly susceptible to massive fatal damage by the giant sharks jaws.
@Apex Titan :
OK, I understand your arguments... I was persuaded that Megalodon was the marine life apex predator. I don't mix the biotops, I will never compare the terrestrial predators with the marine predators because the rules aren't the same (for this reason one I don't appreciate the Steve Alten's book "The megalodon 2" cheerfully mixing and speculating encounters between mosasaurus and megalodon, megalodon and t.-rex and so on, mixing the epochs and the living environments reflects a lack of rigour). But the fact which perturbs me a little bit is to imagine the apex predator being the biggest animal which existed at a given time. Because if we don't consider the megalodon case, at any period the biggest animals which existed within a determined biotop weren't predator and by far... A 65 tons sharks would have been the absolute predator, the personified nightmare of the whole marine animal community, unless we learn it existed a 200 tons whale or leviathan. Just look at the extant animals (leaving aside the human action): there is no one terrestrial predator's weight exceeding 800 kilos, the most performing one is the tiger, 300 kilos whereas the biggest herbivores reach a few tons. And as concerns the extant marine life, orcas reach 6-8 tons, sperm whales 40 tons, but the blue whale far more heavier. I remain persuaded there was some marine creatures which were able to withstand a megalodon but clearly we don't know them enough good. After all the ferocity, the temperament doesn't fossilize. Perhaps too, the megalodon was more indolent than the extant whales, even if I don't really think that... But we don't know everything about the Pliocene marine fauna, for sure. I would rather believe in a predator living in prides and knowing how to react together against a megalodon. In a way as the extant orcas would do. But even living in prides the "Pliocen orcas" should have been larger than the actual ones. Just to have a serious chance to collectively withstand...
@Apex Titan
Another singular fact: since they have existed, more than 400 millions years, shark have always been among the most serious competitors of the marine life, but, except, by reading you, the Megalodon period, never the most performing ones. During the Paleozoic era, some cartilaginous fishs like dunkleosteus ruled, during the mesozoic era marine reptiles were the dominant predators (itchyosaurus, pliosaurus, plesiosaurus and above all mosasaurus during the Cretaceous period). We know, during the Cretaceous period, that some sharks bigger than the extant white sharks, for example the Cretoxyrhina . https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cretoxyrhina https://www.sharks-world.com/prehistoric_sharks/ https://www.nhm.ac.uk/discover/shark-evo...eline.html What I just want to say: prehistoric marine life has always been abundant, prolific. The sharks have always been a success of the evolution: they survived through 5 main extinctions even if we consider that the biggest shark of the Cretaceous ocean disappeared with the marine reptiles 65 millions years ago. Just after, sharks regained lost ground. In short, sharks have never been alone under the sea, it's difficult to believe, that suddendly, a monstruous shark, the megalodon, dominated so intensively. They coudn't be alone, I am just persuaded about that.
@Spalea
Quote:OK, I understand your arguments... I was persuaded that Megalodon was the marine life apex predator. I don't mix the biotops, I will never compare the terrestrial predators with the marine predators because the rules aren't the same (for this reason one I don't appreciate the Steve Alten's book "The megalodon 2" cheerfully mixing and speculating encounters between mosasaurus and megalodon, megalodon and t.-rex and so on, mixing the epochs and the living environments reflects a lack of rigour). But the fact which perturbs me a little bit is to imagine the apex predator being the biggest animal which existed at a given time. Because if we don't consider the megalodon case, at any period the biggest animals which existed within a determined biotop weren't predator and by far... A 65 tons sharks would have been the absolute predator, the personified nightmare of the whole marine animal community, unless we learn it existed a 200 tons whale or leviathan. Just look at the extant animals (leaving aside the human action): there is no one terrestrial predator's weight exceeding 800 kilos, the most performing one is the tiger, 300 kilos whereas the biggest herbivores reach a few tons. And as concerns the extant marine life, orcas reach 6-8 tons, sperm whales 40 tons, but the blue whale far more heavier. You made some good points. I also see why you'll never compare terrestrial predators with marine predators, fair enough. In a way, you're right. The rules aren't the same. There's no way the megalodon could have been more "indolent" than the extant whales. Absolutely not possible and makes no sense. The megalodon was the supreme apex predator of the ocean, which means it must have regulated the populations of other predators and super-predators. It was an active hunter at the very top of the food-chain. In a way, megalodon did what tigers do today. Just like how Amur tigers actively hunt and kill other large predators like bears, which regulates the bears populations, and also actively pursue, kill and reduce wolf populations to the point of localized extinction, the megalodon was also actively killing and eating other marine predators, which also regulated or severely reduced their numbers. So its a very similar dynamic. Here's a video from the researchers. Emma Kast states: "The megalodon must have been at a extraordinarily high position in the marine food-web, and not just high in terms of similarity to apex predators we have today, but actually multiple trophic levels higher than anything we have in the modern ocean." Professor & researcher Daniel Sigman states: "Their diet must have been largely composed of predatory and super-predatory animals." As to other marine animals able to withstand megalodon. A whole pod of Livyatan Melvillei whales probably could. An entire pod (mainly comprised of adult whales) may have been able to withstand a lone megalodon, but if the megalodon came across a lone Livyatan Melvillei, then the Livyatan whale would have been in serious trouble. If the mosasaurus lived alongside the megalodon, then the mosasaurus would have got destroyed. It would have had zero chances against the megalodon. The mosasaurus only weighed around 15 tons, whereas the megalodon weighed 50 - 65+ tonnes. Its a complete mismatch, the mosasaurus would have been food for the megalodon. God knows what other undiscovered creatures existed in the prehistoric oceans. We can only imagine or speculate. Quote:What I just want to say: prehistoric marine life has always been abundant, prolific. The sharks have always been a success of the evolution: they survived through 5 main extinctions even if we consider that the biggest shark of the Cretaceous ocean disappeared with the marine reptiles 65 millions years ago. Just after, sharks regained lost ground. In short, sharks have never been alone under the sea, it's difficult to believe, that suddendly, a monstruous shark, the megalodon, dominated so intensively. They coudn't be alone, I am just persuaded about that. Well, honestly, I don't know of any other marine creature that could have been on par with megalodon, in terms of size, power, weaponry, dominance, killing prowess etc. Maybe there was another predator but hasn't been discovered yet. Who knows? But that's just a wild guess. But overall, the sheer dominance of the megalodon is simply undeniable. Their absolute top position in the food-chain and active predation on other predators/super-predators clearly indicates that they did indeed dominate so intensively. However, I'm always interested when wildlife experts/scientists make new discoveries about other unknown predators which existed in Prehistoric times.
06-20-2023, 08:59 PM
( This post was last modified: 06-20-2023, 09:00 PM by hibernours
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(06-20-2023, 05:55 PM)Apex Titan Wrote: @Spalea You talk just like a little fanboy who imagine animals like war machines, it is really pathetic. Megalodon was a great predator without any doubts, very massive and strong without any doubt. But in water, there are more important factors like mobility, social behaviors, intelligence... A pod of orcas is probably much more dangerous than your Megalodon for many reasons. And concerning tigers and bears, whatever you think, bears are stronger, have a better plasticity and have more cognitive capacities than tigers and an adult male brown bear in good health has nothing to fear about tigers. But you know, i know tiger fanboys who believe that a tiger could kill a prehistoric elephant which is 10 tons in mass. How stupid they are...
@Apex Titan
About #43: After having seen your short video, all I can say is, if that is true, that your geant shark would be the only one apex predator ( during the history of life on Earth) surpassing in size and weight all other marine creatures. And that, it's exceptionnal. When you are evoking the Amur tiger, this felid weights 220-300 kilos and I can name the brown bear, a big male boar, the asiatic bison (wisent ?) as animals sharing its environment and being bigger than it. Yes it's an apex predator, he hunts some preys bigger than itself, thus an hunting error isn't allowed. During a recent past, Pleistocene period, when the human action was so much more weaked than today, the bears were bigger, some cave lions ruled over the Siberia, some wolves, bigger too than the extant ones, plaged in bigger packs. In short, the Amour tiger, being a solitary apex predator, had to be careful. If I spoke about T-rex, there were so numerous preys which were bigger than it (big ceratopciens, big duckbilled dinosaurs, sauropods ...). For it too, hunting error wasn't allowed. But, in the case of megalodon, nothing like it. Apparently, this apex predator crushed the competition ! It's for this reason one, I find it very particular, I would believe in an other predator able to withstand solitarily or in pride against it. Because It's very hard to believe in an absolute mega apex predator (like the human specy nowaday in fact !). |
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