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Pleistocene Big Cats
American Lion (Panthera atrox)
American Lion (Panthera atrox)
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American Lion (Panthera atrox)
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Does 250 cm seem a maximum for Panthera atrox. For my estimation, using the reference that would give the largest estimate for Panthera atrox, it barely surpasses the 250 cm mark. However, for my original estimation, it would only reach the 250 cm if the actual animal was measured over the curves, as the value is smaller than 250 cm.
(04-16-2018, 12:47 AM)epaiva Wrote: Panthers atrox skull found in the permafrost of an Alaskan gold mine.I thought Alaska was only inhabited by a population of Beringian cave lions? Or American lions came into existence before one group decided to move south?  (04-03-2022, 02:16 PM)acutidens150 Wrote:(04-16-2018, 12:47 AM)epaiva Wrote: Panthers atrox skull found in the permafrost of an Alaskan gold mine.I thought Alaska was only inhabited by a population of Beringian cave lions? Or American lions came into existence before one group decided to move south? Is there a 19.5 inch skull
@Utkarsh i think the largest cave lion skull is the 475 mm or 18.7 inch panthera fossilis skull, although let’s see what @GuateGojira says
 (06-14-2022, 10:00 AM)Utkarsh Wrote: Is there a 19.5 inch skull No, the biggest skull from Panthera atrox measure 467.5 mm (18.4 in) in GSL and the biggest skull from Panthera spelaea is of 484.7 mm (19.08 in) in GSL, but this last one is broken in the middle and deformed so its size could be overestimated. The next bigger one is of c.475 mm (18.7 in) in GSL "reconstructed" as is broken at the end. However this last one is slightly smaller than the large one of Panthera atrox in other measurements like the Condylobasal and Basal length, suggesting a bigger size in the American specimen. Check the next link, in post No. 135 of Tigerluver, for more details: https://wildfact.com/forum/topic-smilodo...tor?page=9
@gautegoreja
In carnivora I found a guy showing 19.5 inch skull (495.3)mm with an weight estimation of 482.5 kg First weight estimation was 610 kg which was totally an overexaggerate later it came to 482.5 kg Even many people say that American lion and Mobsach Lion has 20 to 21 inch skulls in private collection Also which is the largest specimen of American lion And which cat is the largest cat   *This image is copyright of its original author https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full...07.00101.x American lion's bite force compared to other predators. Polar bears seem to have stronger jaws than American lions in this chart. (06-15-2022, 09:07 AM)Utkarsh Wrote: @gautegoreja How and who measure the skull? Where are the measurements published and the per-review document to backup the claim? Don't trust in "independent" measurements from random people that normally use data from webpages that put "fossils" to sale, manytimes they do not measure the "products" or they measure them incorrectly (over the bone with a tape, which is totally incorrect). We can be sure only on the specimens reported via per review documents. Also, we can't trust in hersays about specimens in suppoust "private collections", we can trust and use only what is actually available as is the only real data. I can say that I have a skull of a cave lion of 50 cm if I want, but how you going to know if that is true? Science is based in facts that can be proved, so hearsays and unreliable measurements must be discarded inmediatelly. Weight estimations are tricky, you should analize the formula used and the method of application, remember that weight estimations had been done before and certainly a mass of 482 kg is a gross overexageration. The largest specimen of Panthera atrox is the one that I mentioned before, the "Univ.Calif.14001", if we base our data in skulls only. The largest cat at this moment, based in body mass, is Smilodon populator, but based in body dimentions the Pleistocene Bornean tiger Panthera tigris sp. described by Sherani (2019) surpass any existent Panthera cat in modern and fossil record, followed very close by the biggest Panthera spelaea fossilis specimens. 
The largest skull so far for the American lion/Pleistocene tiger/Cave lion all fall within 460-480 mm.
For now, the only feline with a skull exceeding 480 mm is the Mobsach lion. Unless we can find something new.
The measurement of the skull is 495.3 mm
Also how Smilodon populator could be the largest cat when the 436 kg could be overexaggeration Also Mobsach Lion, American lion and bornean tiger are the only three I see as contendors for the largest cat As Smilodon populator weight could be temporary Also there is a site named the extinction giving rthe weight of 450 kg with multiple experts as proof and giving the average of 332 kg 482 specimen was first calculated as 610 which was completely as overexaggeration Later it came to 482.5 kg I don't know which one to believe and which one to not as every other site says something different (06-16-2022, 01:06 PM)Utkarsh Wrote: The measurement of the skull is 495.3 mm in my opinion, i dont really see how 436 kg for that 15.4 inch skull specimen could be an overexaggeration when christiansen and harris in 2005, said that large specimens of populator could exceed 400 kg. and that was before the 15.4 inch and 16.07 inch skulls were taken into account, both of which are are the largest populator specimens so far and are larger than those specimens chrisitiansen and harris said could exceed 400 kg in 2005 (06-16-2022, 01:06 PM)Utkarsh Wrote: The measurement of the skull is 495.3 mm About the skull of 495.3 mm, may you please show the next information: 1 - source of this measurement? 2 - To what species belong? 3 - Who and how was measured? 4 - If is possible, a picture of the specimen? About the weight of Smilodon populator, there is nothing against the idea that they could weight over 400 kg, in fact, relative smaller specimens reached the c.360 kg figure (using the formulas of Christiansen & Harris, 2005), so we can estimate that the bigger specimens could reach even 450 kg! Remember that this species had a relative small head in relation with its body and its bones were so robust that they aproach those of large bear species. Yes, Smilodon populator, Panthera spelaea fossilis and Panthera tigris sp. from Borneo are the three contenders for the largest cat, all of them surpassing 400 kg. Previous estimations of Machaidorus and Amphimachairodus that suggested weights over 400 kg are debatable. About this site named "The Extinction" that you mention, can you please share the link in order to see which are those multiple experts and they calculations? The average of 332 kg is for Smilodon populator or another cat? I understand that there are going to be differences between websites, I advice you to try to stay with the published documents and they information. However, if is possible, try to dig more about the methods and formulas used. Other thing is that you need to identify if there are "fan bases" involved in the forums or webpages, because that can create bias in the posts of the sites and they "results". Finally, is important to be critical on the information, do not accept it just like that. For example, the "Cave lions" (atrox and spelaea mixed togheter like a crazy soup) are normally quoted to be "25% bigger than modern lions" in many many many books, but none of them clarify where this statement came (just to let you know, it came from Dr Kurten, and that because I dig it, nobody mention it). But when we check the fossils, the biggest Panthera atrox and biggest Panthera spelaea specimens are in fact c.15% and c.20% bigger than the biggest lion (this last percentage is debatable). So we need to understand that many of those estimations are based in average calculations on some especimens or even estimated body masses. In this case, the figure of 25% is based in the fact that the male Panthera atrox was calculated with an average body mass of 235 kg in some old documents, and the value used for African lions in those same documents was of 188 kg for the calculations, giving a difference of the 25%, while in body measurements the difference is much less. This is just an example of why we need to be carefull on the statements even in per-review documents. I will wait for the information on the giant skull that you mention. (06-16-2022, 10:26 PM)GuateGojira Wrote:(06-16-2022, 01:06 PM)Utkarsh Wrote: The measurement of the skull is 495.3 mm for panthera fossilis are the specimens that waveriders mentioned the ones that are said to be able to exceed 400 kg, because i was told that the mokhnevskaya cave skull which is said to be 475 mm in total length is slightly shorter in condylobasal length than the 467.5 mm atrox skull (06-16-2022, 11:37 PM)jrocks Wrote: for panthera fossilis are the specimens that waveriders mentioned the ones that are said to be able to exceed 400 kg, because i was told that the mokhnevskaya cave skull which is said to be 475 mm in total length is slightly shorter in condylobasal length than the 467.5 mm atrox skull No, I don't remember the fossils that Wave mentioned, in fact he never showed any document, image or evidence of his claims. If those bones are published, I don't have the source, so I can't make an opinion on them, maybe @tigerluver can. I think that the maximum weight that a Panthera species can reach is about 400 kg, taking in count that the biggest modern lions and tigers do not normally surpass the 272 kg and a maximum of about 300 kg. So, the Pleistocene cats, which are not absurdly bigger in comparison with they modern relatives, they probably weighed between 350 to 400 kg in the bigger specimens. Here is a comparative image of the biggest skuls of three Panthera species, recorded by scientists and properly published. If we take in count hunting records (406 mm for tiger and 419 mm for lion), the difference will be even smaller:  *This image is copyright of its original author About the Panthera spelaea fossilis skull from the Mokhnevskaya cave, check that the size of the Panthera atrox biggest specimen is slightly bigger overall. GSL: C. 475 mm (broken). CBL: 422 mm. BL: 398 mm. Now check the biggest Panthera atrox: GSL: 467.5 mm. CBL: 424.3 mm. BL: 404.7 mm. It seems that in the other dimentions, they are about the same size too, but Panthera atrox seems to be in the lead. The skull from Chateau can't be used for comparison as is badly crushed and even its GSL is in doubt based in the evidence presented, so it could be smaller than what was reported.
Here is another comparative image between the biggest skulls from Panthera atrox, Smilodon populator and Smilodon fatalis:
 *This image is copyright of its original author The specimen of Panthera atrox used in the image is the one from Bone Clones that is a copy/reconstruction of the specimen 2900-3 (the second on size in the list of Rancho La Brea) but I escalated it to the size of the record one. The specimen of S. populator is the original one from Uruguay, and finally the specimen of S. fatalis is the 2001-225 one of the three biggest ones (second in GSL) but I scaled it to the size of the largest one (2001-24). Interestingly, while we can see some difference in size in the numbers in the paper, in reality the difference is not that much when you see them in this form. |
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