Lions of Timbavati

[Mdz123]

(02-09-2022, 11:14 PM)DARK MANE Wrote: A quick question. 
Basically it's a doubt I have. 
Actually I have learnt that there are two moawana males ( sire by black dam male) , and in may 2020 theythey have killed their father. At that time they were 4.5 yrs old, so today must be 6+ yrs old. 

But by seeing the comments today, I have learned that moawana male is sired by trilogy males. 

Are these two different sets of moawana boys sired by different make coalition or what?? 

Plus there shud b two moawana brothers naa.... 
I have seen two moawana brothers chasing their father (BDM)in 2020 video. Why everyone is saying just one limping moawana male???

No, 2 Monwana males are BDM sons. I said that Limping Monwana was seen with 3 Thornybush males, but the 2 groups are unrelated Reply

[Tr1x24]

(02-09-2022, 11:14 PM)DARK MANE Wrote: Are these two different sets of moawana boys sired by different make coalition or what?? 

Plus there shud b two moawana brothers naa.... 
I have seen two moawana brothers chasing their father (BDM)in 2020 video. Why everyone is saying just one limping moawana male???

Yes, they are 2 sets, 2 older ones are sired by BDM born in early 2016, 3 younger ones by Trilogy male, i think they are born in mid 2018. 

Out of 2 older ones, who ousted their father BDM (no evidence that they killed him) 1 male was killed last year, his body was found, also no evidence but most likely killed by Hercules/Sumatra as they takeover their pride and territory, his brother Limping Monwana become nomadic and currently is seen with younger Monwana males. Reply

[Tr1x24]

(02-10-2022, 12:11 AM)Mdz123 Wrote: No, 2 Monwana males are BDM sons. I said that Limping Monwana was seen with 3 Thornybush males, but the 2 groups are unrelated

Thornybush males are younger Monwana males, they came from the same pride but different fathers, they are related. Reply

[kobe8jf1234]

(02-09-2022, 07:25 PM)Mdz123 Wrote:

(02-09-2022, 07:16 PM)kobe8jf1234 Wrote:

(02-09-2022, 06:42 PM)Potato Wrote:

(02-09-2022, 06:31 PM)kobe8jf1234 Wrote: idk if they can chase the black dam males now they grew alot

BDs with their numbers still would have advantage er just about anyone around (maybe beside Vuyela males) including Xikukutsu/Mapoza coalition. The question is if they want to challange Xikukutsus/Mapoza while around they have easier targets in form of Sumatra/Hercules, Birmingham/Torchwood and the two old Ross males.

what about the limping male mowana and skorro males both would be easy pickings ?

Limping Monwana could be hard since he was seen with 3 Thornybush males (Trilogy males sons), so technically he is part of coalition of 4

that crazy that they accept him they could of killed him Reply

[Tr1x24]

(02-10-2022, 01:52 AM)kobe8jf1234 Wrote: that crazy that they accept him they could of killed him

They are nomads just like him, and he is bigger and stronger then them, younger Monwanas are still quite young and still not in a phase to compete for territory. Reply

[Potato]

(02-10-2022, 12:58 AM)Tr1x24 Wrote: most likely killed by Hercules/Sumatra as they takeover their pride and territory

One does not mean another same as Tintswalos did not killed Orpens, Mapozas did not kill Trilogy, Birminghams did not kill Majingilanes and so on. Hercules and SUmatra could have just been on right spot to take advantage from demise of Monwana male. Reply

[Tr1x24]

(02-10-2022, 03:46 AM)Potato Wrote: One does not mean another same as Tintswalos did not killed Orpens, Mapozas did not kill Trilogy, Birminghams did not kill Majingilanes and so on. Hercules and SUmatra could have just been on right spot to take advantage from demise of Monwana male.

I said no evidence to confirm, but its likely, Hercules/Sumatra appeared in their territory same time as he was killed, not like they came 1 month later or something.

But yea, there is a small chance that it was just coincidence. Reply

[Potato]

(02-10-2022, 11:25 AM)Tr1x24 Wrote: But yea, there is a small chance that it was just coincidence.

It is not small chance as such "coincidence" happens quite often in the lion world. Tintswalos took over bassicly in same time Orpens passed away, same with succession of Mapozas from Trilogy. MOhawk Matshapiri wasn't even dead yet when Avocas already sensed vacum of power in the arena. Avoca/Giraffes also took territorys from Thanda Impis right after Sizanani's passing away. I could go with those examples on and on as it is general think in male lion world that the vacum of power does not least for long at all and there is bassicly always some coalition around which would gladly fill it up. Reply

[Tr1x24]

(02-10-2022, 01:03 PM)Potato Wrote: It is not small chance as such "coincidence" happens quite often in the lion world. Tintswalos took over bassicly in same time Orpens passed away, same with succession of Mapozas from Trilogy. MOhawk Matshapiri wasn't even dead yet when Avocas already sensed vacum of power in the arena. Avoca/Giraffes also took territorys from Thanda Impis right after Sizanani's passing away. I could go with those examples on and on as it is general think in male lion world that the vacum of power does not least for long at all and there is bassicly always some coalition around which would gladly fill it up.

I got you, but theres is always a gap/time in between, when other males/coalitions recognize that that area is empty/weakened, then they move in. . That was not in this case, Hercules/Sumatra already engaged with Giraffe pride females when body of dead Monwana male was not even found yet.. 

Same would go with 2 Skorros vs 2 Nharhus, we where "lucky" that rangers found Xitaya who was still alive but dying to hyenas and they knew that 2 new males in the area, Skorros, did that, and they immidiately takeover Nharhus territory and Myambula females (with who Nharhus started mating) after that. That situation might be exactly what happened in this case, but rangers didn't find Monwana male alive in this case so they could confirme. 

That short period in which Hercules/Sumatra takeover their territory and females is the reason why i think its more likely they defeated them, and not that they took advantage of his demise. But thats just my opinion. Reply

[Potato]

(02-10-2022, 08:10 PM)Tr1x24 Wrote: but theres is always a gap/time in between

In all those examples there was not really a gap (maybe beside Avoca/Giraffes vs Thanda Impis where I am not sure there was a gap or not) . Avocas even challanged Matshapiris when Mohawk was still alive.

(02-10-2022, 08:10 PM)Tr1x24 Wrote: Same would go with 2 Skorros vs 2 Nharhus, we where "lucky" that rangers found Xitaya who was still alive but dying

Indeed. I am not saying Sumatra/Hercules for sure did not kill Monwana male, but Junior Nkuchuma example shows that in a bush many thinks can happen, some even very unexpectable. Monwana male just as easly could have been taken out by buffalo as by Sumatra/Hercules.

(02-10-2022, 08:10 PM)Tr1x24 Wrote: That situation might be exactly what happened in this case

 
Might or might not. It might also be as incase of Tintswalo males taking over Mbiri pride. Orpen males demised and the Tintswalos were on the right spot to immediately take advantage out of it.
I general the difference between Nharhus vs Skorros and Hercules/Sumatra vs Monwanas situation is that from Tanda Tula region we get regular great updates so we know what happens in general. On the other hand from the core territory of Giraffe pride we bassicly get no updates what so ever so just about any theory on what happened is viable. Bassicly only think we know is that Monwana male was found dead. Reply

[Tr1x24]

(02-10-2022, 09:39 PM)Potato Wrote: Indeed. I am not saying Sumatra/Hercules for sure did not kill Monwana male, but Junior Nkuchuma example shows that in a bush many thinks can happen, some even very unexpectable. Monwana male just as easly could have been taken out by buffalo as by Sumatra/Hercules.

Yea, but just by statistics, more males get killed of by their competition then in hunting accidents, we can prob count on our fingers how many dominant/prime males died in hunting accidents in areas we follow (just in Sabi Sands in past 10 yrs, what, Selati #2?  I cant remember any other) or the way like Nkuhuma Junior died. Yes some males just disapeare so we dont know what happened, but again, just by statistics, more of those missing males where prob killed by rival males then by buffalos or something. 

So based of that statistic point of view i said its more likely he got killed by rival males then in hunting or some other accident, but yea, its possible, just smaller chance. Reply

[DARK MANE]

You guys have very deep information. 
Thanks for that. 
One can gain a lot of it just by reading your comments if one have basic idea of timeline. 
I have also completed reading small threads like majingis sons, matimbas sons, Birmingham pridepride and more but these heavyweight threads of 300+, 400+ and 600+ pages are way too much than my capacity. Reply

[Potato]

(02-10-2022, 10:05 PM)Tr1x24 Wrote: Yea, but just by statistics, more males get killed of by their competition then in hunting accidents

Probably, through, the count shouldn't be far apart at all.

(02-10-2022, 10:05 PM)Tr1x24 Wrote: we can prob count on our fingers how many dominant/prime males died in hunting accidents in areas we follow (just in Sabi Sands in past 10 yrs, what, Selati #2?  I cant remember any other)

Scrapper, Golden Mane Majingi as far as I remember, Mohawk Matshapiri possibly, it is not clear how he injured his leg, but that happening on hunt sound like rational option. Also Rolercoaster male killed by crocodile in question could belong to this category.

That might not be much, but from the other side I could ask how much adult males in the paast 10 years or so in Sabi Sands were confirmed killed in terrytorial conflicts. 1 Selati, 1 Mapogo, 1 Majingi, Othawa male, 1 unknown male killed by Birminghams in 2016 or 2017, KNP male Freddy and Sparta male Cleo. One can say it is quite a bit more deaths from other males than from buffalos through in other regions that count might look very different. In Timbavati buffalo likely could have even bigger ration of adult males killed, than other males would.

(02-10-2022, 10:05 PM)Tr1x24 Wrote: So based of that statistic point of view i said its more likely he got killed by rival males then in hunting or some other accident, but yea, its possible, just smaller chance.

Fair enough.

(02-10-2022, 11:58 PM)DARK MANE Wrote: Birmingham pridepride and more but these heavyweight threads of 300+, 400+ and 600+ pages are way too much than my capacity.

They are worth reading through if you ask me. If you can not then still you have "Lion Tales" topic in which you got just about every important and well documented event from lion dynamic gathered. Reply

[acutidens150]

(08-22-2021, 05:49 PM)Scar Mbiri Wrote:

(08-21-2021, 09:11 PM)Timbavati Wrote: Two of the six Black dam males were seen in Manyeleti a few days ago. After a long work trying to match up the whiskers pattern and scars. I'll dare to say that these two are in fact, two of the six Black dam young males that were seen in Manyeleti and Sabi Sands a few days ago.
Photo credits: Ryan Jack, Rudi Hulshof and Tintswalo Safari Lodge YT channel and Kaver Joshi 

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

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*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

(08-22-2021, 05:12 PM)Timbavati Wrote:

(08-22-2021, 03:04 AM)Scar Mbiri Wrote:

(08-21-2021, 09:11 PM)Timbavati Wrote: Two of the six Black dam males were seen in Manyeleti a few days ago. After a long work trying to match up the whiskers pattern and scars. I'll dare to say that these two are in fact, two of the six Black dam young males that were seen in Manyeleti and Sabi Sands a few days ago.
Photo credits: Ryan Jack, Rudi Hulshof and Tintswalo Safari Lodge YT channel and Kaver Joshi 

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

(08-22-2021, 02:33 AM)Timbavati Wrote:

(08-21-2021, 10:22 PM)Scar Mbiri Wrote: Hi everyone,any information on the monwana male lion the son of BDM?

He was seen in good condition recently. He chased off a young male. Either Giraffe young male or Sark breakaway young male. Interesting times ahead

Timbavati,do you think the monwana male can reach the size of BDM? Looks really impressive for his age

Rangers from Walkers River Camp told me that they inherited the look and size of the Black Dam male. Thus, I think the Monwana male should be a big young male.

Could you get any information on BDM's weight please. Or anyone here. One of my friends even contacted the ecologist of timbavati and he said BDM was the biggest lion he ever checked up on or seen. And he seen and checked up on ximpoko as well who was 280kgs at full belly. BDM could most definately be bigger then than ximpoko in my opinion.

I'm not sure it is him but maybe it is, saw statement of a lion weighing 297 kg from Timbavati. However I am unable to find it. Reply

[Duco Ndona]

If it is full belly. I personally wouldnt take much stock in in. Reply