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+----- Thread: Canids and Hyaenids Interactions (/topic-canids-and-hyaenids-interactions)
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Canids and Hyaenids Interactions - Pantherinae - 02-07-2015
Gotta say brown hyenas are impressive animals! Chasing away several cheetah's, chase leopards up tree's and aswell as The striped hyena stole the kill from 12 wolves...
hyenas are not to mess with!
RE: Felines in competition with other carnivores - Pckts - 02-09-2015
(02-07-2015, 06:33 AM)'Pantherinae' Wrote: Gotta say brown hyenas are impressive animals! Chasing away several cheetah's, chase leopards up tree's and aswell as The striped hyena stole the kill from 12 wolves...
hyenas are not to mess with!
Can I see the account of a hyenna stealing the kill from the wolves?
RE: Felines in competition with other carnivores - Pantherinae - 02-09-2015
RE: Felines in competition with other carnivores - Pckts - 02-09-2015
Not sure If i call that "domination" as the wolves are pestering and biting her. It also cuts off very early on so you don't see it play out. But I forget how much smaller indian wolves are compared to their grey wolf cousin. I would expect their relationship with striped hyenna to be the same as wild dogs to the spotted hyenna.
RE: Felines in competition with other carnivores - Pantherinae - 02-10-2015
Still it's stealing the kill! And we should respect hyenas very much!
Going in on 12 wolves and winning! Or fight leopards off kills!
Wolves are very strong, but would probably something like spotted hyenas vs WD's, but would
be funny to see a one on one fight between a wolf and a hyena! A spotted hyena would kill a wolf, and i actually think both the brown and striped would take a wolf aswell! Even though the are a bit smaller
RE: Felines in competition with other carnivores - Pckts - 02-10-2015
(02-10-2015, 12:17 AM)'Pantherinae' Wrote: Still it's stealing the kill! And we should respect hyenas very much!
Going in on 12 wolves and winning! Or fight leopards off kills!
Wolves are very strong, but would probably something like spotted hyenas vs WD's, but would
be funny to see a one on one fight between a wolf and a hyena! A spotted hyena would kill a wolf, and i actually think both the brown and striped would take a wolf aswell! Even though the are a bit smaller
Not sure who I would pick between a Grey Wolf vs Hyenna Fight. Both are similarly sized, but these wolves are small. They are the size of wild dogs or even smaller so they aren't much of a match to a hyenna. I know I would definitely take a wolf pack very a hyenna clan though. They work better together from what I have seen, its like comparing apples to oranges though. Two different animals living on two completely different sides of the world. But I remember the story of the hyenna and wild dog and two jackals who were best friends and the hyenna would rely on the wild dog to do most of the hunting. So I assume canids are the better hunters for sure.
Hyenna vs Leopard interaction goes either way as you are well aware.
RE: Felines in competition with other carnivores - Pantherinae - 02-10-2015
a single dominant spotted hyena would have no problem with even the largest wolf IMO!
they are much more durable than wolves, have stamina, strength and if hyenas (which can be quite easy been scarred) really want to fight they are monsters! can't see a single wolf approatch a lioness and sucsessfully steal the kill. (as some spotted hyenas actually manages)
and remember that hyena stealing from the arabian wolves are a striped hyena and they are aswell quite small in Arabia!
wolves are much better pack hunters, and are way more cooperative, while hyenas usually hunts in small groups or alone!
RE: Felines in competition with other carnivores - Pckts - 02-10-2015
(02-10-2015, 01:56 AM)'Pantherinae' Wrote: a single dominant spotted hyena would have no problem with even the largest wolf IMO!
they are much more durable than wolves, have stamina, strength and if hyenas (which can be quite easy been scarred) really want to fight they are monsters! can't see a single wolf approatch a lioness and sucsessfully steal the kill. (as some spotted hyenas actually manages)
and remember that hyena stealing from the arabian wolves are a striped hyena and they are aswell quite small in Arabia!
wolves are much better pack hunters, and are way more cooperative, while hyenas usually hunts in small groups or alone!
I highly doubt a hyenna has better stamina than a wolf. Wolf hunts can last for hours just like wild dogs. They strictly tire out their prey when its large. I have seen wolves take on Male bears, that is just as impressive as a hyenna taking on a lioness. Lets be honest neither is going to be able to contend with the largest predator in their territory unless they have #'s. BTW there is no proof of a hyenas "durability" being higher or lower than any other predator.
If you are talking about max size for both, there is a 10kg difference between the two, there is no way to say one is going to be stronger than the other.
This is what Canid cooperation would do to a single hyenna when put to use.
RE: Felines in competition with other carnivores - Pantherinae - 02-10-2015
Pckts I would say bears are way stronger than both lions and tigers, but I have many photagrapher friends who has seen wolves and bears co feeding and walk almost side by side without any aggression, and wolves are quicker and faster than hyenas and Lions are faster than bears. Aswell as You will never see a wild dog pack feed alongside a lion. Cat's are a far more dangerous apponent than bears for dogs to approatch!
Hyenas does probably not have the same stamina as a wolf, but they does have a good stamina aswell. I've seen hyenas dragning a fully grown zebra, and a dead lion like it was Nothing, aswell as walking with a fully grown impala without The impala toutching the ground! So yes I would bet alot off money on hyenas being a stronger animal, even though they are about The same size a hyena is buildt more powerfull, even though a wolf is strong aswell, there's alot of examples of animals about The same size as one another and one animal is much stronger than The other (leopard and cheetah is an example) no studies, but use you're eys and You will see a hyena surviving a male lion attack, a wolf would not have a chance! Aswell as surviving attacks from multiple lionesses, there a wolf would have died!
aswell as I can use an example a young adult male leopard is strangeling a hyena cub while it's hanging in a tree, and The hyena cub last's quite some time before it dies! A adult jackal(not a wolf, but a canidae) is dead in a matter of seconds when a young female leopard attacks it.
So that a adult spotted hyena would beat a wolf I have no doubts about!
RE: Felines in competition with other carnivores - Pckts - 02-10-2015
(02-10-2015, 04:03 AM)'Pantherinae' Wrote: Pckts I would say bears are way stronger than both lions and tigers, but I have many photagrapher friends who has seen wolves and bears co feeding and walk almost side by side without any aggression, and wolves are quicker and faster than hyenas and Lions are faster than bears. Aswell as You will never see a wild dog pack feed alongside a lion. Cat's are a far more dangerous apponent than bears for dogs to approatch!You bring up an intersting idea when comparing the strength of a Cheetah to a Leopard. And yes, both are similar in weight. But that is where the similarities end, the dimensions of their frames are completely different. Cheetah stand far taller at the shoulder, they have longer bodies and limbs. A leopard is far more compact with most of its weight in their neck, chest, head and limbs.
Hyenas does probably not have the same stamina as a wolf, but they does have a good stamina aswell. I've seen hyenas dragning a fully grown zebra, and a dead lion like it was Nothing, aswell as walking with a fully grown impala without The impala toutching the ground! So yes I would bet alot off money on hyenas being a stronger animal, even though they are about The same size a hyena is buildt more powerfull, even though a wolf is strong aswell, there's alot of examples of animals about The same size as one another and one animal is much stronger than The other (leopard and cheetah is an example) no studies, but use you're eys and You will see a hyena surviving a male lion attack, a wolf would not have a chance! Aswell as surviving attacks from multiple lionesses, there a wolf would have died!
aswell as I can use an example a young adult male leopard is strangeling a hyena cub while it's hanging in a tree, and The hyena cub last's quite some time before it dies! A adult jackal(not a wolf, but a canidae) is dead in a matter of seconds when a young female leopard attacks it.
So that a adult spotted hyena would beat a wolf I have no doubts about!
Now when we compare hyena and wolf, they are fairly similar in shoulder height and body length. Their strength is impossible to try and say one is more than the other. Wolves taking down Bison is far more impressive than hyena taking down Wilda beast but that ties into hunting more so than anything else.
"aswell as I can use an example a young adult male leopard is strangling a hyena cub while it's hanging in a tree, and The hyena cub last's quite some time before it dies! A adult jackal(not a wolf, but a canidae) is dead in a matter of seconds when a young female leopard attacks it."
Animals of all degrees have survived strangulation or dyer situations, every death attempt is different. I have seen hyenas killed in a matter of seconds by lions as well. I have seen leopards put a hyena unconscious in seconds as well, so there are situations for every account.
Lets compare leopard attacks to puma attacks, both are similar in size and wolf and hyena have and does survive their attacks quite often. More proof of both of their durability, being strangled has nothing to do with "durability". It is simply the lack of oxygen needed to keep the brain conscious. A better grip will stop the oxygen flow quicker and if held for long enough, every mammal will die. Oxygen is the necessity for all mammals. I have seen wolves take hoof attacks from moose and still complete the kill. You can find examples of both.
So obviously this statement
"So that a adult spotted hyena would beat a wolf I have no doubts about! "
is without merit since there is absolutely no way you would know for sure.
RE: Felines in competition with other carnivores - Pantherinae - 02-10-2015
Well a wolf pack killing bison's is one thing two hyenas bringing down a cape buffalo is another, that's just as impressive.
A wolf and a hyena is compleatly different build animals. hyenas are heavy at The back, and a extreme neck aswell! Wolves are medium build overall in their biodies.
That leopard did still not kill The hyena, even with a throat bite, it's wierd the hyena went down such easy, very Often even male leopards gives up their meal when a large hyena is coming in, The hyena on those pictures Looks young with ryggy fur and light coat. I'm not saying leopards can't take down hyenas, but against a highly ranked female hyena against a large male leopard I don't think it's possible to take a stand! (I highly respect hyenas, I've seen so much of them that impresses me very much) on The other hand I saw a cougar lift and flip a adult wolf around like nothing! That would never have happend to a hyena!
Actually yes pckts: have no doubts a big hyena would beat a wolf!
RE: Felines in competition with other carnivores - Pckts - 02-10-2015
(02-10-2015, 07:17 AM)'Pantherinae' Wrote: Well a wolf pack killing bison's is one thing two hyenas bringing down a cape buffalo is another, that's just as impressive.
A wolf and a hyena is compleatly different build animals. hyenas are heavy at The back, and a extreme neck aswell! Wolves are medium build overall in their biodies.
That leopard did still not kill The hyena, even with a throat bite, it's wierd the hyena went down such easy, very Often even male leopards gives up their meal when a large hyena is coming in, The hyena on those pictures Looks young with ryggy fur and light coat. I'm not saying leopards can't take down hyenas, but against a highly ranked female hyena against a large male leopard I don't think it's possible to take a stand! (I highly respect hyenas, I've seen so much of them that impresses me very much) on The other hand I saw a cougar lift and flip a adult wolf around like nothing! That would never have happend to a hyena!
Actually yes pckts: have no doubts a big hyena would beat a wolf!
Show me where you saw a Puma lift and flip a wolf around like it was nothing?
"I'm not saying leopards can't take down hyenas, but against a highly ranked female hyena against a large male leopard I don't think it's possible to take a stand!"
Leopards have taken on adult female and male hyennas 3 at a time and won. It doesn't matter the sex, a large male leopard is going to be to much for a hyenna. Thats why you have never seen a single hyenna kill a Leopard but leopards have killed hyenna, But its a close fight either way. I have seen just as many leopards stand their ground against numerous hyenna as be run off, so thats pointless to only specify one side of the story.
"Actually yes pckts: have no doubts a big hyena would beat a wolf!"
Obviously you have NO CLUE since it has never ever happened, ever!
Not a single account, instance or any match in history. We are talking about a Grey Wolf btw.
"That leopard did still not kill The hyena, even with a throat bite, it's wierd the hyena went down such easy,"
The point is, the hyena went down. Easily!
If the leopard holds the throat hold, its dead. If the leopard looked at the hyenna as a food source, it could start consuming it even if its unconsious. It doesn't matter, like its already stated. Cutting off oxygen to the brain has nothing to do with "durability"
"Well a wolf pack killing bison's is one thing two hyenas bringing down a cape buffalo is another, that's just as impressive. "
Lets compare apples to apples than. Do you have the alleged video of the two hyenas bringing down a cape buffalo?
Because here is a pack of 10 plus hyenas needed to take on a Cape and it doesn't even say if they are successful in making the kill.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h1wcUfOsFtQ
and here you see a mom protecting her new born calf against 10 plus hyena
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ktky0F69bg
So unless they are going after a calf, young, injured buffalo or sick, there is no chance that 2 can take an adult down.
RE: Felines in competition with other carnivores - Pantherinae - 02-10-2015
Well I can search for the wolf being flipped by the cougar! I'm on my phone and the network sucks!
Hyenas are way more tollorant towards other carnivores Than leopards! And they don't look at leopards as a pest they make god use of them making the kills which they can steal! And hyenas are very inteligent animals! Okei I've seen lone leopards beeing treed by a single hyena aswell!
Do not underestimate mothers, they will fight for their young! I've seen a clipp in norway where a moose did the same against some wolves! Here is the clipp two hyenas brings him down https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=8OCSE42pTi8
I look at a solo hyenas as a much more impressive animal Than a lone wolf! So i would be as safe as possible on that a spotted hyena would beat a wolf!
RE: Felines in competition with other carnivores - Pckts - 02-11-2015
(02-10-2015, 11:18 PM)'Pantherinae' Wrote: Well I can search for the wolf being flipped by the cougar! I'm on my phone and the network sucks!
Hyenas are way more tollorant towards other carnivores Than leopards! And they don't look at leopards as a pest they make god use of them making the kills which they can steal! And hyenas are very inteligent animals! Okei I've seen lone leopards beeing treed by a single hyena aswell!
Do not underestimate mothers, they will fight for their young! I've seen a clipp in norway where a moose did the same against some wolves! Here is the clipp two hyenas brings him down https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=8OCSE42pTi8
I look at a solo hyenas as a much more impressive animal Than a lone wolf! So i would be as safe as possible on that a spotted hyena would beat a wolf!
Percfect example...
The buffalo is old and lame. It can't even run because of its badly injured leg. And even so, the entire clan still needs to get involved to make the kill. No hyenna is coming close to taking on a healthy Buffalo, which is proven by the fact that multiples of 10 cant even take on a cow. Its just not going to happen unless the buffalo is old or injured then its completely fair game. If the animal can't escape or defend it self, its an easy meal.
Im sorry, but these guys look every bit as large as any hyenna I have seen
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
Weights of the largest Old World wolf subspecies from Mammals of the Soviet Union. Apparently, Eurasian wolves are larger than tundra wolves.
Tundra Wolf: A wolf of large size. Body length of males (23) 118—137 cm, tail
length 42—52; average weight 40 kg, maximum 49 (1 specimen of 55,
with the stomach contents). Body length of female wolves (23) is 112—
136 cm, tail length 41-49 cm, average weight 36.6 kg, maximum 41 kg.
Eurasian Wolf: It is usually considered that the weight of adult males is 40-45 kg,
a yearling, about 35 kg and juveniles about 25 kg. Maximum weight of
the Middle Russian wolf is considered to be from 69 to 80 kg (see above).
138 Dimensions of animals from separate regions are as follows: weight
of adult wolves of northern part of Ryazansk district (south of
Meshchera—^a little south of the latitude of the Pra river) varies from
32 to 55 kg (based on 173 individuals); weight of the largest male was
56.3 kg (Kozlov, 1955). Of 65 wolves killed in the region of Mordovsk preserve (Temnikov),
only one old male with worn teeth weighed 49 kg. The remaining adult
males had weights from 40 to 45 kg; adult females, from 30 to 35 and
only one female weighed 38 kg (Kozhevnikov, 1953).
The wolves of Voronezh district, i.e. the forest steppe zone, apparently
are somewhat different from Moscow wolves of the true forest
zone and have the following measurements and weight. Average body
length, based on 154 animals killed in the region of Voronezh preserve,
was 125 cm in males and 122 cm in females. The majority of animals,
both old as well as yearlings, had a weight from 30 to 40 kg. Many
juvenile wolves reached a weight of 23 kg by the end of November.
Weight of adult (full-grown) males (48) averaged 40.0 kg; weight of
adult (full-grown) females (31) was 31-42.1 kg, averaging 36.0 kg.
Weight of yearling male wolves (up to two years old) (8) was 26.6-
34.0 kg, averaging 32.0; weight of yearling female wolves (24) was
23.0-32.8 kg, averaging 29.0 kg (weight without stomach contents;
Merts, 1953).
http://archive.org/stream/mammalsofsov211998gept#page/182/mode/2up
So the largest subspecies are
Mac kenzie, Yukon, Eurasian and Northern Rocky Mountain volwes having 45 kg average...Is it the average weight for males or both sexes? The largest record is Eurasian shot in Serbia in Carpathian range (86 kg.), Siberian (80 +) Yukon (79 kg), Mc Kenzie (70) and Rocky mountains 65 kg. For Arctic we have a record of 60 kg. For Tundra this is 52 kg.
http://carnivoraforum.com/topic/9863296/1/
Compared to Hyena
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
MammalDiet:OmnivoreAverage life span in the wild:Up to 25 yearsSize:Head and body, 34 to 59 in (86 to 150 cm); tail, 10 to 14 in (25 to 36 cm)Weight:110 to 190 lbs (50 to 86 kg)Group name:ClanSize relative to a 6-ft (2-m) man:
*This image is copyright of its original author
The spotted hyena is the largest extant member of the Hyaenidae.[sup][46][/sup] Adults measure 95–165.8 cm (37.4–65.3 in) in body length, and have a shoulder height of 70–91.5 cm (27.6–36.0 in).[sup][27][/sup] Adult male spotted hyenas in the Serengeti weigh 40.5—55.0 kg (89—121 lb), while females weigh 44.5—63.9 kg (98—141 lb). Spotted hyenas in Zambia tend to be heavier, with males weighing on average 67.6 kg (149 lb), and females 69.2 kg (153 lb).[sup][36][/sup] Exceptionally large weights of 81.7 kg (180 lb)[sup][9][/sup] and 90 kg (200 lb)[sup][27][/sup] are known. It has been estimated that adult members of the now extinct Eurasian populations weighed 102 kg (225 lbs).[sup][47][/sup]
Then from Carnivoria
Grey Wolf
Shoulder height: 80-85 cm (32-34 in)
Body length: 105-160 cm (41-63 in)
Weight: 25-79 kg (55-175 lb)
General information: The grey wolf is the largest extant wild member of the Canidae family, and occurs primarily in wilderness and remote areas, especially in Canada, Alaska and northern USA, Europe, Asia and north Africa. The grey wolf is a social predator that lives in nuclear families consisting of a mated pair, its offspring and, occasionally, adopted immature wolves. It primarily feeds on ungulates, which it hunts by wearing them down in short chases. Other prey include rodents, ground nesting birds, reptiles and livestock. Grey wolves are typically apex predators throughout their range, with only humans and tigers posing significant threats to them. Genetic studies reaffirm that the grey wolf is the ancestor of the domestic dog. A number of other Canis lupus subspecies have been identified, though the actual number of subspecies is still open to discussion.
vs
Spotted Hyena
Shoulder height: 70-91 cm (28-36 in)
Body length: 95-166 cm (38-65 in)
Weight: 40.5-81.7 kg (89-180 lb)
General information: The spotted hyena is a species of hyena native to Sub-Saharan Africa. It is the largest member of the Hyaenidae, and is the most social of the Carnivora in that it has the largest group sizes and most complex social behaviours. Its social organisation is unlike that of any other Carnivore, bearing closer resemblance to that of cercopithecine primates (baboons and macaques) with respect to group-size, hierarchical structure, and frequency of social interaction among both kin and unrelated group-mates. Spotted hyena society is matriarchal; females are larger than males, and dominate them. The spotted hyena is a highly successful animal, being the most common large carnivore in Africa. Its success is due in part to its adaptability and opportunism; it is both an efficient hunter and a scavenger, with the capacity to eat and digest skin, bone and other animal waste.
http://carnivoraforum.com/topic/9329673/2/
As you can see, both are extremely close in size, weight and morphology. So obviously there would not be a clear cut advantage to either in the strength department and Wolf shown above is actually reported as the world record wolf of over 220lbs so the max could actually go up for the wolf.
But this really shows that both are extremely close, even closer than I realized.
I've said my piece and shown my evidence, feel free to respond but lets not derail this thread any more after that.
I would like you to find the alleged Puma ragdolling a wolf like you claim since it fits in to this thread, thanks.
RE: Felines in competition with other carnivores - Pckts - 02-11-2015
(02-11-2015, 02:04 AM)'Jubatus' Wrote: I've actually read some place that hyenas in Zambia will avergae at 70 kg, max there could be very large!Jubutas?
well I do not need to discuss neither does I have the time, as you and I won't back down! I have my view on the case and I relay on my opinion. I think you're undreestimating the hyenas.
well the cougar vs wolf clip is right here, no way that would have hapend to a hyena, absoulutly no way!
I was discussing this with Pantherinae.
Are you one and the same????
Mods may want to take a look at that.
And BTW, that clipped has nothing to do with "ragdolling" a Wolf, both animals are close in size, the wolf did not die and they are in a fight, the cat just gets it's back. I have NO doubt a cougar could do the same to a hyena, just like leopards do to hyena as well. Its not like the cat put the Wolf in a death throat hold in a matter of seconds like the leopard did to the group of 3 hyena, correct? Cats are superior fighters one on one, whether wolf or hyena, I would always pick the cat to have the advantage. Thats why they take on multiple opponents and succeed, at times. Sometimes not, but they are the only one of the two capable of doing so.
Tell me again a wolf is not Durable!!!!!
That wolf takes multiple goring, throws and trampling's yet never stops fighting.
More impressive durability than I have seen from a hyena, thats for sure. Not saying one is more or less durable, its just insane to try and compare when you have no idea or proof to back either side.