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ON THE EDGE OF EXTINCTION - C - THE JAGUAR (Panthera onca) - Printable Version

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RE: ON THE EDGE OF EXTINCTION - C - THE JAGUAR (Panthera onca) - lionjaguar - 10-12-2019

(10-12-2019, 03:03 AM)Pckts Wrote:
(10-12-2019, 02:39 AM)lionjaguar Wrote:
(10-12-2019, 02:10 AM)Pckts Wrote:
(10-12-2019, 01:11 AM)lionjaguar Wrote:
(06-10-2018, 03:15 AM)epaiva Wrote: @peter
Today I attended a SYMPOSIUM named  LOS FELINOS DE VENEZUELA with the best researchers of Cats in the country  with a great surprise, Dr Wlodzimierz Jedrzejewski who has been doing a research of Jaguars and Pumas for more than 9 years found out a Coalition of two big adult males in Hato Pinero in  the Venezuelan Llanos they have already killed 3 males and have a huge territory with 3 females for them, they are mating  without any fight between them, Jaguars are supossed to be solitary cats. He said that he estimates that the largest Jaguar in Pinero weights at least 120 kilograms. Hato Pinero is a big Ranch located in Estado Cojedes, Venezuela
Credits to Jan Dunge and Desiree Starke

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

That's fascinating. Are they living like lions? I heard a story about two old male jaguars in the Brazilian Pantanal combine forces to defend their territories against younger males. I read jaguars are less territorial against other jaguars are intruding their territory unless they invade the core area. That's probably why jaguars are doing better than most other big cats despite they are not adaptable compared to cougar.
Not sure about the 2 older ones but as of now you have 2 brothers who are still patrolling and hunting together but they're still young *3 ish* so they may not stay together much longer.
Jaguars are extremely aggressive to one another but not so much territorial since the Pantanal has constantly changing landscapes. When you see sandbars or trees where Jaguars hunt one year, those exact same spots may be washed away the next year once the floods come and go.
An example of how hard it is for Jags to grow up in the pantanal is that you will rarely see cubs there, there's too many huge males and they kill them off, you also rarely see young Jags who were born there come back, most Jaguars who come to the meeting of the 2 rivers arent known to the guides and it's usually huge dominate males. It's like they know that when they come back to these prestine hunting grounds they must be the best of the best.

I really don't know if jaguars are extremely aggressive. Pantanal probably has dense jaguar population, and that's probably why jaguars are territorial then. I heard it from other guide that jaguars are not aggressive compared to how Mapogo lions are killing others for territory. It would be different if prey is low in their habitats. I have never heard male jaguars are killing rival male's cubs. Is there any source to prove it?

You're asking 2 different questions...
Are they as aggressive as one of the most infamous lion coalitions in modern history?
No, probably not

Are they extremely aggressive to one another?
Yes, absolutely and I can give you example after example of them doing so. 
Again, the pantanal isn't your normal open plains setting, you cannot view them easily, floods come and wash away everything, in fact, most of the terrain may look like there is tall grass with dry land beneath it but really it's just water everywhere. You drive past in the boat and all the tall grass which you thought was land just rocks with the wakes of the water, it's very cool to see.
So that being said, you dont have a chance to view what happens to these cats for most of the year.
But there is a reason why the Pantanal has a revolving door of dominate males which never stick around for long.

Also, caiman in los llanos are a smaller sub species and they arent the density like they are in the Panatanl.
Hunting is much more prevalent in los llanos as well. No Jaguar territory on earth is going to be a more prime setting than the Panatanl, but obviously los llanos is close since they have very large cats as well.

Lastly, which guides are you speaking with?
I may know some

I am talking about jaguars from 100 years ago too. Jaguars in Pantanal are probably the biggest jaguars. How about if we are comparing to jaguars of Los Llanos 100 years ago. There are not much size difference between the yacare caiman and spectacled caiman. It won't affect body size of predators consuming them.
I read fb post from guide name Paulo Barreiros.


RE: ON THE EDGE OF EXTINCTION - C - THE JAGUAR (Panthera onca) - lionjaguar - 10-12-2019

Who are top 5 biggest jaguars of both northern and southern Pantanal?


RE: ON THE EDGE OF EXTINCTION - C - THE JAGUAR (Panthera onca) - Pckts - 10-12-2019

(10-12-2019, 03:19 AM)lionjaguar Wrote:
(10-12-2019, 03:03 AM)Pckts Wrote:
(10-12-2019, 02:39 AM)lionjaguar Wrote:
(10-12-2019, 02:10 AM)Pckts Wrote:
(10-12-2019, 01:11 AM)lionjaguar Wrote:
(06-10-2018, 03:15 AM)epaiva Wrote: @peter
Today I attended a SYMPOSIUM named  LOS FELINOS DE VENEZUELA with the best researchers of Cats in the country  with a great surprise, Dr Wlodzimierz Jedrzejewski who has been doing a research of Jaguars and Pumas for more than 9 years found out a Coalition of two big adult males in Hato Pinero in  the Venezuelan Llanos they have already killed 3 males and have a huge territory with 3 females for them, they are mating  without any fight between them, Jaguars are supossed to be solitary cats. He said that he estimates that the largest Jaguar in Pinero weights at least 120 kilograms. Hato Pinero is a big Ranch located in Estado Cojedes, Venezuela
Credits to Jan Dunge and Desiree Starke

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

That's fascinating. Are they living like lions? I heard a story about two old male jaguars in the Brazilian Pantanal combine forces to defend their territories against younger males. I read jaguars are less territorial against other jaguars are intruding their territory unless they invade the core area. That's probably why jaguars are doing better than most other big cats despite they are not adaptable compared to cougar.
Not sure about the 2 older ones but as of now you have 2 brothers who are still patrolling and hunting together but they're still young *3 ish* so they may not stay together much longer.
Jaguars are extremely aggressive to one another but not so much territorial since the Pantanal has constantly changing landscapes. When you see sandbars or trees where Jaguars hunt one year, those exact same spots may be washed away the next year once the floods come and go.
An example of how hard it is for Jags to grow up in the pantanal is that you will rarely see cubs there, there's too many huge males and they kill them off, you also rarely see young Jags who were born there come back, most Jaguars who come to the meeting of the 2 rivers arent known to the guides and it's usually huge dominate males. It's like they know that when they come back to these prestine hunting grounds they must be the best of the best.

I really don't know if jaguars are extremely aggressive. Pantanal probably has dense jaguar population, and that's probably why jaguars are territorial then. I heard it from other guide that jaguars are not aggressive compared to how Mapogo lions are killing others for territory. It would be different if prey is low in their habitats. I have never heard male jaguars are killing rival male's cubs. Is there any source to prove it?

You're asking 2 different questions...
Are they as aggressive as one of the most infamous lion coalitions in modern history?
No, probably not

Are they extremely aggressive to one another?
Yes, absolutely and I can give you example after example of them doing so. 
Again, the pantanal isn't your normal open plains setting, you cannot view them easily, floods come and wash away everything, in fact, most of the terrain may look like there is tall grass with dry land beneath it but really it's just water everywhere. You drive past in the boat and all the tall grass which you thought was land just rocks with the wakes of the water, it's very cool to see.
So that being said, you dont have a chance to view what happens to these cats for most of the year.
But there is a reason why the Pantanal has a revolving door of dominate males which never stick around for long.

Also, caiman in los llanos are a smaller sub species and they arent the density like they are in the Panatanl.
Hunting is much more prevalent in los llanos as well. No Jaguar territory on earth is going to be a more prime setting than the Panatanl, but obviously los llanos is close since they have very large cats as well.

Lastly, which guides are you speaking with?
I may know some

I am talking about jaguars from 100 years ago too. Jaguars in Pantanal are probably the biggest jaguars. How about if we are comparing to jaguars of Los Llanos 100 years ago. There are not much size difference between the yacare caiman and spectacled caiman. It won't affect body size of predators consuming them.
I read fb post from guide name Paulo Barreiros.

I'm not sure about 100 years ago, I can only speak on the last 30-50

Paulo is a good friend of mine, he was my tour guide. I can guarantee he knows good and well how aggressive Jaguars are and will be happy to let you know as well.
Just ask him about Marley one day, Paulo is the one who's filmed and seen Marley fight numerous times including the one where marley and another monster male roll down the hill fighting then Marley runs for his life into the water to escape.
Also, Paulo will almost guarantee that no Jaguar is as large as the Pantanal Jags as well.


RE: ON THE EDGE OF EXTINCTION - C - THE JAGUAR (Panthera onca) - Pckts - 10-12-2019

(10-12-2019, 03:21 AM)lionjaguar Wrote: Who are top 5 biggest jaguars of both northern and southern Pantanal?

I've posted weights for the south, the largest weighed under Oncafari was 135kg in the south, in the north you have one 148kg and quite a few 130kgs as well.

A famous Jaguar is Adriano, he was rumored to weigh 158kg and turned out to be 130kg but there are quite a few Jags larger than he is.
Paulo and I saw 2 different males on our trip together who were larger than Adriano and there are still more that are larger than they just to give you an idea.

Put it this way, there are far more Jags who've never been captured or weighed than who actually were, realistically the 148kg empty mark is nothing extroidanary, I'd bet the house on quite a few there being larger but we can never prove that obviously.


RE: ON THE EDGE OF EXTINCTION - C - THE JAGUAR (Panthera onca) - lionjaguar - 10-12-2019

(10-12-2019, 04:43 AM)Pckts Wrote:
(10-12-2019, 03:19 AM)lionjaguar Wrote:
(10-12-2019, 03:03 AM)Pckts Wrote:
(10-12-2019, 02:39 AM)lionjaguar Wrote: I really don't know if jaguars are extremely aggressive. Pantanal probably has dense jaguar population, and that's probably why jaguars are territorial then. I heard it from other guide that jaguars are not aggressive compared to how Mapogo lions are killing others for territory. It would be different if prey is low in their habitats. I have never heard male jaguars are killing rival male's cubs. Is there any source to prove it?

You're asking 2 different questions...
Are they as aggressive as one of the most infamous lion coalitions in modern history?
No, probably not

Are they extremely aggressive to one another?
Yes, absolutely and I can give you example after example of them doing so. 
Again, the pantanal isn't your normal open plains setting, you cannot view them easily, floods come and wash away everything, in fact, most of the terrain may look like there is tall grass with dry land beneath it but really it's just water everywhere. You drive past in the boat and all the tall grass which you thought was land just rocks with the wakes of the water, it's very cool to see.
So that being said, you dont have a chance to view what happens to these cats for most of the year.
But there is a reason why the Pantanal has a revolving door of dominate males which never stick around for long.

Also, caiman in los llanos are a smaller sub species and they arent the density like they are in the Panatanl.
Hunting is much more prevalent in los llanos as well. No Jaguar territory on earth is going to be a more prime setting than the Panatanl, but obviously los llanos is close since they have very large cats as well.

Lastly, which guides are you speaking with?
I may know some

I am talking about jaguars from 100 years ago too. Jaguars in Pantanal are probably the biggest jaguars. How about if we are comparing to jaguars of Los Llanos 100 years ago. There are not much size difference between the yacare caiman and spectacled caiman. It won't affect body size of predators consuming them.
I read fb post from guide name Paulo Barreiros.

I'm not sure about 100 years ago, I can only speak on the last 30-50

Paulo is a good friend of mine, he was my tour guide. I can guarantee he knows good and well how aggressive Jaguars are and will be happy to let you know as well.
Just ask him about Marley one day, Paulo is the one who's filmed and seen Marley fight numerous times including the one where marley and another monster male roll down the hill fighting then Marley runs for his life into the water to escape.
Also, Paulo will almost guarantee that no Jaguar is as large as the Pantanal Jags as well.

Do you know Paulo? How much did you spend on your trip to Pantanal? He is just posting many photos to impress everyone to visit Pantanal, then he just change as personal email or message when it is about tour cost. One problem with his statement is that he is probably making money on tourism. He is probably overrating Pantanal jaguars. There are plenty jaguars form Los Llanos above 100 kg. Paper written by Rafael Hoogesteijn is proving that Los Llanos jaguars might have been biggest jaguars along with Pantanal jaguars. Other measurement taken by Schaller was not big compared to the Los Llanos jaguars.

The jaguar is one of the most overrated big cats along with lion where people used to believe it as the king of the beast. I remember reading someone from Norway in wildfact wrote lions will have tough time when they coexist with jaguars something in other thread If you read some of jaguar books. You can see authors are over parsing jaguars more than other two larger and stronger cats. Example: Jaguar has the largest brain of all living cats and the most intelligent. It is unable to train jaguar in circus since they are the most destructive of all cats or something. It is also one of the least studied big cats. It's very difficult for me to trust jaguars.

Who is Marley and can you post this fighting video? Post Marley's photos
Quote:Marley fight numerous times including the one where marley and another monster male roll down the hill fighting then Marley runs for his life into the water to escape.



RE: ON THE EDGE OF EXTINCTION - C - THE JAGUAR (Panthera onca) - Pckts - 10-12-2019

You're making many false claims and I suggest you stop, Paulo has done more for Jaguars and the natural world in South America than 99% of the population. He guides through the Amazon, Pantanal, Venezuala, was a guide in Corbett and Africa as well. He's literally risked his life and continues to do so to protect these big cats and their habitat. He has no issue discussing price and will be happy to do so if you're actually interested in it, hence me going there with him this past may.

Here is what Rafeal specifically said to @epaiva 
https://wildfact.com/forum/topic-size-comparisons?page=29&highlight=size+comparisons
Post #430

"I contacted Rafael Hoogesteijn today, he told me that the larger Jaguars are the ones from El Pantanal and a small number of Jaguars from Los Llanos are as big as the larger ones in El Pantanal. Females in El Pantanal are bigger and heavier than the ones found in los llanos  he told me that the heaviest captured by them is the one captured on october 12th 2008 he weighted 148 kgs. They captured other big males one weighted 130 kgs"

I've spoken to him as well and Fernando who is the main person involved with Panthera captures now a days even though they really dont capture them anymore, or at least lately.


RE: ON THE EDGE OF EXTINCTION - C - THE JAGUAR (Panthera onca) - Pckts - 10-12-2019

This is Marley, 



In this video he had already beaten this male a week earlier and the male is just trying to save face but wasn't seen really after this.

Then this is Marley here as well



Marley had been mating with this female then saw this Giant male sitting atop the bank, Marley rushed up to run the male off and then the giant male turned the tables and whooped Marley and sent him swimming for his life.
That male had never been seen by Paulo before that, but Paulo said hes easily larger than Adriano. I saw that male mating with a giant female named Hunter on my trip.

What makes marley special is that he was born and raised in the meetings of the 3 rivers and he never left *very rare*
Marley also isn't the largest male but he has battled and defeated many larger males and hes also lost many as you see but he never leaves, his grit makes him a mainstay there for now. 

You can read all about my trip with Paulo and the pantanal here 
https://wildfact.com/forum/topic-your-wildlife-experience-in-the-pantanal-brazil


RE: ON THE EDGE OF EXTINCTION - C - THE JAGUAR (Panthera onca) - lionjaguar - 10-12-2019

(10-12-2019, 06:04 AM)Pckts Wrote: You're making many false claims and I suggest you stop, Paulo has done more for Jaguars and the natural world in South America than 99% of the population. He guides through the Amazon, Pantanal, Venezuala, was a guide in Corbett and Africa as well. He's literally risked his life and continues to do so to protect these big cats and their habitat. He has no issue discussing price and will be happy to do so if you're actually interested in it, hence me going there with him this past may.

Here is what Rafeal specifically said to @epaiva 
https://wildfact.com/forum/topic-size-comparisons?page=29&highlight=size+comparisons
Post #430

"I contacted Rafael Hoogesteijn today, he told me that the larger Jaguars are the ones from El Pantanal and a small number of Jaguars from Los Llanos are as big as the larger ones in El Pantanal. Females in El Pantanal are bigger and heavier than the ones found in los llanos  he told me that the heaviest captured by them is the one captured on october 12th 2008 he weighted 148 kgs. They captured other big males one weighted 130 kgs"

I've spoken to him as well and Fernando who is the main person involved with Panthera captures now a days even though they really dont capture them anymore, or at least lately.

I am not trying to be rude. Why are you telling me false claim? I just read fb comment and reading in book. That's all I know. You could be right that I am writing false claim if Paulo wrote some nonsense in facebook when he speaks to other people. Paulo even guide you in India and Africa as well? That's even more surprising. Are you publishing any papers if I you think I am really writing false claim to win this debate? If you are really big cat biologist, then show me your published papers. I am surprised that they are even happily giving you so many information, because most of those people very busy. They are not willing to waste their time in emails to answer pointless question on animal body sizes. They care about how to save animals more than which individuals are the biggest. The most of those people are not even giving exact information since they spent a lot of time and money.

I don't think there is any stable size record on Los Llanos jaguar. So we would never going to know which individuals are the biggest. Older paper information is opposite besides female Pantanal jaguars were bigger than Los Llanos jaguars.


RE: ON THE EDGE OF EXTINCTION - C - THE JAGUAR (Panthera onca) - lionjaguar - 10-12-2019

(10-12-2019, 06:16 AM)Pckts Wrote: This is Marley, 



In this video he had already beaten this male a week earlier and the male is just trying to save face but wasn't seen really after this.

The first video. I heard those jaguar names are Scarface and Juru. Bigger and aggressive one is Scarface. I heard it from different person working on jaguars. She might named them different namea I guess


RE: ON THE EDGE OF EXTINCTION - C - THE JAGUAR (Panthera onca) - Pckts - 10-12-2019

Paulo helps Panthera with Jag Id, @epaiva worked in Venezuela capturing Anacondas and other wildlife and most people working in the natural world will be happy to answer questions for you if they are addressed in a mature and polite way.


The reason I said you're making false claims is because of what you said about Paulo here
Quote:He is just posting many photos to impress everyone to visit Pantanal, then he just change as personal email or message when it is about tour cost. One problem with his statement is that he is probably making money on tourism. He is probably overrating Pantanal jaguars
And here
Quote:The jaguar is one of the most overrated big cats

I suggest you read through the link I posted about my trip and Paulo, I'm sure you'll get most of your answers there.


RE: ON THE EDGE OF EXTINCTION - C - THE JAGUAR (Panthera onca) - Pckts - 10-12-2019

(10-12-2019, 06:33 AM)lionjaguar Wrote:
(10-12-2019, 06:16 AM)Pckts Wrote: This is Marley, 



In this video he had already beaten this male a week earlier and the male is just trying to save face but wasn't seen really after this.

The first video. I heard those jaguar names are Scarface and Juru. Bigger and aggressive one is Scarface. I heard it from different person working on jaguars. She might named them different namea I guess
Nope that's Marley, the one who's tail is tucked is Scarface or Geoff, I forget which one.
Marley is the aggressor and the other is being defensive, Marley had already beaten him up badly the week before and the other male wasn't really seen after this.

*This image is copyright of its original author


The only people in the entire Pantanal who keep an updated Jaguar ID data base are Paulo and Paul Donahue
His IG is here
https://instagram.com/jaguaridproject?igshid=xf2hj0emi76h

Many guides dont really know which Jag is which, but they'll get better as more and more people start posting about them. But Paulo and Paul are by far the beat at id'ing them correctly.


RE: ON THE EDGE OF EXTINCTION - C - THE JAGUAR (Panthera onca) - lionjaguar - 10-12-2019

(10-12-2019, 06:16 AM)Pckts Wrote: This is Marley, 



In this video he had already beaten this male a week earlier and the male is just trying to save face but wasn't seen really after this.

Then this is Marley here as well



Marley had been mating with this female then saw this Giant male sitting atop the bank, Marley rushed up to run the male off and then the giant male turned the tables and whooped Marley and sent him swimming for his life.
That male had never been seen by Paulo before that, but Paulo said hes easily larger than Adriano. I saw that male mating with a giant female named Hunter on my trip.

What makes marley special is that he was born and raised in the meetings of the 3 rivers and he never left *very rare*
Marley also isn't the largest male but he has battled and defeated many larger males and hes also lost many as you see but he never leaves, his grit makes him a mainstay there for now. 

You can read all about my trip with Paulo and the pantanal here 
https://wildfact.com/forum/topic-your-wildlife-experience-in-the-pantanal-brazil

From what I heard, this is Scarface. The jaguar who was beaten by Marley or Juru from your post. I guess Scarface disappeared or died then.









2nd video of Marley 
I can't tell which jaguars are actually bigger. 'Giant male' looks bigger because he is on top and smashing Marley. Their fight looks nothing compared to lions or street cats. Swing their front legs just like teenage girls fighting.

I can't understand what you wrote. born and raised in the meetings of the three rivers?? He never left?

Quote:What makes marley special is that he was born and raised in the meetings of the 3 rivers and he never left *very rare*



RE: ON THE EDGE OF EXTINCTION - C - THE JAGUAR (Panthera onca) - Pckts - 10-12-2019

(10-12-2019, 06:55 AM)lionjaguar Wrote:
(10-12-2019, 06:16 AM)Pckts Wrote: This is Marley, 



In this video he had already beaten this male a week earlier and the male is just trying to save face but wasn't seen really after this.

Then this is Marley here as well



Marley had been mating with this female then saw this Giant male sitting atop the bank, Marley rushed up to run the male off and then the giant male turned the tables and whooped Marley and sent him swimming for his life.
That male had never been seen by Paulo before that, but Paulo said hes easily larger than Adriano. I saw that male mating with a giant female named Hunter on my trip.

What makes marley special is that he was born and raised in the meetings of the 3 rivers and he never left *very rare*
Marley also isn't the largest male but he has battled and defeated many larger males and hes also lost many as you see but he never leaves, his grit makes him a mainstay there for now. 

You can read all about my trip with Paulo and the pantanal here 
https://wildfact.com/forum/topic-your-wildlife-experience-in-the-pantanal-brazil

From what I heard, this is Scarface. The jaguar who was beaten by Marley or Juru from your post. I guess Scarface disappeared or died then.









2nd video of Marley 
I can't tell which jaguars are actually bigger. 'Giant male' looks bigger because he is on top and smashing Marley. Their fight looks nothing compared to lions or street cats. Swing their front legs just like teenage girls fighting.

I can't understand what you wrote. born and raised in the meetings of the three rivers?? He never left?

Quote:What makes marley special is that he was born and raised in the meetings of the 3 rivers and he never left *very rare*

I've seen both I person, Balwin is much larger than Marley and it's pretty easy to see their size difference in the video.

The meetings of the 3 rivers is where the most prestine and protected Jaguar habitat occurs in the Panatanl, at least 65 adult individuals id'd there at the moment in the area. It's where the most competition is and thus most Jaguars who are born from females who live there rarely are seen back there again after the flood season.


RE: ON THE EDGE OF EXTINCTION - C - THE JAGUAR (Panthera onca) - Shadow - 10-12-2019

(10-12-2019, 06:55 AM)lionjaguar Wrote:
(10-12-2019, 06:16 AM)Pckts Wrote: This is Marley, 



In this video he had already beaten this male a week earlier and the male is just trying to save face but wasn't seen really after this.

Then this is Marley here as well



Marley had been mating with this female then saw this Giant male sitting atop the bank, Marley rushed up to run the male off and then the giant male turned the tables and whooped Marley and sent him swimming for his life.
That male had never been seen by Paulo before that, but Paulo said hes easily larger than Adriano. I saw that male mating with a giant female named Hunter on my trip.

What makes marley special is that he was born and raised in the meetings of the 3 rivers and he never left *very rare*
Marley also isn't the largest male but he has battled and defeated many larger males and hes also lost many as you see but he never leaves, his grit makes him a mainstay there for now. 

You can read all about my trip with Paulo and the pantanal here 
https://wildfact.com/forum/topic-your-wildlife-experience-in-the-pantanal-brazil

From what I heard, this is Scarface. The jaguar who was beaten by Marley or Juru from your post. I guess Scarface disappeared or died then.









2nd video of Marley 
I can't tell which jaguars are actually bigger. 'Giant male' looks bigger because he is on top and smashing Marley. Their fight looks nothing compared to lions or street cats. Swing their front legs just like teenage girls fighting.

I can't understand what you wrote. born and raised in the meetings of the three rivers?? He never left?

Quote:What makes marley special is that he was born and raised in the meetings of the 3 rivers and he never left *very rare*

I have to ask, that what you are now trying to find out here?

You talk about it, how jaguars fight. They seem to fight like all other big cats, don´t they? Idea of territorial fight isn´t always to kill another, just to make it to submit and leave the area. In extreme cases another one gets seriously injured or killed.

Lions are unique among big cats in that way, that they form coalitions and prides. So their fights have more variations from 1-1 to many different kind of compositions, when there can be one lion against coalition or coalitions against each others etc. Some say, that life of a male lion is as harsh as it can get, maybe it is. But it doesn´t mean, that it would be easy for other species.

What comes to Marley, it looks obvious what @Pckts means. Marley is one of the rare jaguars, who have born at Pantanal and have managed to survive there to adulthood and claim their own territory. When normally jaguars born in Pantanal are forced to leave that area as youngsters by bigger adult ones.

What comes to sizes and to whom you trust as sources. You have right to question guides who earn money from tourists. Still when you look closer, not only guides tell about big jaguars. Also valid and credible people doing scientific research (zoologists/biologists) confirm, that there are some very big ones in Pantanal area. When looking at it, that how credible someone is, it´s good to look at it too, that does someone talk a lot of things, which are in contradiction with confirmed facts found out by scientific research. For instance this guide Paulo looks like to be ok, not giving statements without reasoning.

But it would be good if you could clarify a bit, that what you are now seeking here? And saying, that jaguars are "just like teenage girls fighting" doesn´t make you look good. Disagreements are inevitable sometimes, but if you don´t respect wildlife and wild animals, what are you doing here? For me statements like that look like disrespecting certain species. Especially when that same phrase can be used to describe also lions, tigers, leopards etc. when looking at certain incidents. It just is so, that not all fights are as serious as others. Still many jaguars have nasty scars reminding about fights, which have been more serious ones.


RE: ON THE EDGE OF EXTINCTION - C - THE JAGUAR (Panthera onca) - lionjaguar - 10-13-2019

(10-12-2019, 08:15 PM)Shadow Wrote:
(10-12-2019, 06:55 AM)lionjaguar Wrote:
(10-12-2019, 06:16 AM)Pckts Wrote: This is Marley, 



In this video he had already beaten this male a week earlier and the male is just trying to save face but wasn't seen really after this.

Then this is Marley here as well



Marley had been mating with this female then saw this Giant male sitting atop the bank, Marley rushed up to run the male off and then the giant male turned the tables and whooped Marley and sent him swimming for his life.
That male had never been seen by Paulo before that, but Paulo said hes easily larger than Adriano. I saw that male mating with a giant female named Hunter on my trip.

What makes marley special is that he was born and raised in the meetings of the 3 rivers and he never left *very rare*
Marley also isn't the largest male but he has battled and defeated many larger males and hes also lost many as you see but he never leaves, his grit makes him a mainstay there for now. 

You can read all about my trip with Paulo and the pantanal here 
https://wildfact.com/forum/topic-your-wildlife-experience-in-the-pantanal-brazil

From what I heard, this is Scarface. The jaguar who was beaten by Marley or Juru from your post. I guess Scarface disappeared or died then.









2nd video of Marley 
I can't tell which jaguars are actually bigger. 'Giant male' looks bigger because he is on top and smashing Marley. Their fight looks nothing compared to lions or street cats. Swing their front legs just like teenage girls fighting.

I can't understand what you wrote. born and raised in the meetings of the three rivers?? He never left?

Quote:What makes marley special is that he was born and raised in the meetings of the 3 rivers and he never left *very rare*

I have to ask, that what you are now trying to find out here?

You talk about it, how jaguars fight. They seem to fight like all other big cats, don´t they? Idea of territorial fight isn´t always to kill another, just to make it to submit and leave the area. In extreme cases another one gets seriously injured or killed.

Lions are unique among big cats in that way, that they form coalitions and prides. So their fights have more variations from 1-1 to many different kind of compositions, when there can be one lion against coalition or coalitions against each others etc. Some say, that life of a male lion is as harsh as it can get, maybe it is. But it doesn´t mean, that it would be easy for other species.

What comes to Marley, it looks obvious what @Pckts means. Marley is one of the rare jaguars, who have born at Pantanal and have managed to survive there to adulthood and claim their own territory. When normally jaguars born in Pantanal are forced to leave that area as youngsters by bigger adult ones.

What comes to sizes and to whom you trust as sources. You have right to question guides who earn money from tourists. Still when you look closer, not only guides tell about big jaguars. Also valid and credible people doing scientific research (zoologists/biologists) confirm, that there are some very big ones in Pantanal area. When looking at it, that how credible someone is, it´s good to look at it too, that does someone talk a lot of things, which are in contradiction with confirmed facts found out by scientific research. For instance this guide Paulo looks like to be ok, not giving statements without reasoning.

But it would be good if you could clarify a bit, that what you are now seeking here? And saying, that jaguars are "just like teenage girls fighting" doesn´t make you look good. Disagreements are inevitable sometimes, but if you don´t respect wildlife and wild animals, what are you doing here? For me statements like that look like disrespecting certain species. Especially when that same phrase can be used to describe also lions, tigers, leopards etc. when looking at certain incidents. It just is so, that not all fights are as serious as others. Still many jaguars have nasty scars reminding about fights, which have been more serious ones.

I think that is your persona opinion. Your country don't even have any big cats, but both of my parents are from countries that had jaguars and lions. They are culturally associated us. I respect them more than anyone because my parents are from the Middle East and Latin America. What makes you to think I am not respecting jaguars, and any other animals after reading my post? It is your own personal mistake problem if you think I am insulting jaguars for saying, "just like teenage girls fighting."