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+----- Thread: Lions in Central and East Africa (/topic-lions-in-central-and-east-africa)
RE: Lions in Central and East Africa - Richardrli - 08-29-2014
Here's the article on Puyol from Ngorongoro: http://www.africadreamsafaris.com/pdf/ads_givesback/SerengetiLionReport-Nov2013.pdf
Interestingly, Puyol isn't from the Crater, but another place within the Ngorongoro Conservation Area (NCA) called Ndutu/Masek.
RE: Lions in Central and East Africa - chaos - 08-29-2014
(07-06-2014, 10:50 PM)'Pckts' Wrote:(05-24-2014, 09:45 AM)'GuateGojira' Wrote: Interesting information. In fact, both males were already included in my table, and the difference between 235 and 237 is practically irrelevant.
What is interesting is how straightforward are her comments. She accept the fact that they scales are not reliable and that in the best case, the resulting figures are educated guesses. Even then, both weights are in the range of the adult males and the only two from the Crater, so I don't see any problem is including them in the list.
On the chest girths, that of Tom is really small, while that of Puyol is no larger than those from Kenya, for example. We could say that those Crater lions with chests of up to 132 cm are much heavier, but we most take in count that the figure of 235-237 kg contain stomach content, and a large one, according with the original source.
American scientists seems to have not a good eye for scales, in Nepal they were too small, in the Crater they are to old. Only Russians (The Amur tiger Programme) get the thing right, they use digital scales which are far more accurate than any spring scale used by western scientists.
Again, thanks for your data TheLioness, you are a great help. [img]images/smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]
Even the lion weights in Kenya vary from the largest weight, to mostly under 190kg. It seems there is huge weight differnces between lions of the same location.
Were the lions all full grown when weighed?
RE: Lions in Central and East Africa - GuateGojira - 08-30-2014
(08-29-2014, 09:08 PM)'Richardrli' Wrote: Here's the article on Puyol from Ngorongoro: http://www.africadreamsafaris.com/pdf/ads_givesback/SerengetiLionReport-Nov2013.pdfYou are correct, that is why I use the words "Ngorongoro CA" (Conservation Area) instead of "Ngorongoro Crater".
Interestingly, Puyol isn't from the Crater, but another place within the Ngorongoro Conservation Area (NCA) called Ndutu/Masek.
RE: Lions in Central and East Africa - GuateGojira - 08-30-2014
(08-29-2014, 10:28 PM)'chaos' Wrote:That is something that we can't know, sadly. The methods to classified an adults specimen vary from person to person in the old records, and only in the modern scientific records can be reliable taken as accurate in this department.(07-06-2014, 10:50 PM)'Pckts' Wrote: Even the lion weights in Kenya vary from the largest weight, to mostly under 190kg. It seems there is huge weight differnces between lions of the same location.
Were the lions all full grown when weighed?
What we see in the tables are approximations of the real figures, and we most take in count that those specimens are "adults", although ranging from 3 years and up, which seems to be the case of all the tables made at this time.
RE: Lions in Central and East Africa - GuateGojira - 06-07-2015
Size of the East African lion:
Check this new image showing the size of an average male at the east of Africa, together with a set of measurements:
*This image is copyright of its original author
All the measurements and weights came from my summary of data from that area (Valvert, 2015; atttached file), while the chest girths came from all the other sources, specially that of Pfefferle et al. (2007) which present the best set of chest girths from lions in the area. Although the other 4 sources are already included in my document, I did not take in count the chest girths, which now I regret.
The weights don't include the data from Bertram & King (1976) and De Almeida (1990), just the specimens in the tables. Check that I was able to separate the records in dates, just like the images of the tigers, in order to see if some change has been produced.
The next one will be the Southern African lions, stay tuned. [img]images/smilies/tongue.gif[/img]
RE: Lions in Central and East Africa - Pckts - 06-07-2015
(06-07-2015, 12:14 PM)'GuateGojira' Wrote: Size of the East African lion:
Check this new image showing the size of an average male at the east of Africa, together with a set of measurements:
*This image is copyright of its original author
All the measurements and weights came from my summary of data from that area (Valvert, 2015; atttached file), while the chest girths came from all the other sources, specially that of Pfefferle et al. (2007) which present the best set of chest girths from lions in the area. Although the other 4 sources are already included in my document, I did not take in count the chest girths, which now I regret.
The weights don't include the data from Bertram & King (1976) and De Almeida (1990), just the specimens in the tables. Check that I was able to separate the records in dates, just like the images of the tigers, in order to see if some change has been produced.
The next one will be the Southern African lions, stay tuned. [img]images/smilies/tongue.gif[/img]
Awesome yet again, could you do the same comparision to The Tiger as you did with the asiatic lion?
When you get the time, of course.
Thanks again
RE: Lions in Central and East Africa - Pantherinae - 06-07-2015
Love it Guate!
RE: Lions in Central and East Africa - GuateGojira - 06-07-2015
Check that I am only using the average sizes for the image, so in this case, we can see how big is a lion of c.184 cm long, c.100 cm tall and c.180 kg, They are BIG!
By the way, this also shows how irrelevant are the "total length" measurements when they are presented alone. With only that measurement, is impossible to see the real size of the animal, after all, how much is body and how much is tail?
RE: Lions in Central and East Africa - Pckts - 06-07-2015
(06-07-2015, 09:59 PM)'GuateGojira' Wrote: Check that I am only using the average sizes for the image, so in this case, we can see how big is a lion of c.184 cm long, c.100 cm tall and c.180 kg, They are BIG!
By the way, this also shows how irrelevant are the "total length" measurements when they are presented alone. With only that measurement, is impossible to see the real size of the animal, after all, how much is body and how much is tail?
Yes, and the tail can be extremely short on occasions or long, its pointless to look at total lenght. Head and body is the real indicator of size.
RE: Lions in Central and East Africa - Pantherinae - 06-07-2015
Yes an average lion is an impressive animal! Would be fun to se a max lion, all top measurements.
RE: Lions in Central and East Africa - Pckts - 06-07-2015
(06-07-2015, 11:28 PM)'Pantherinae' Wrote: Yes an average lion is an impressive animal! Would be fun to se a max lion, all top measurements.Check out the edge of extinction thread for tigers, he posted the 320 kg Tiger compared to a human there.
Its freaking ridicolous, its so cool to see how massive they are compared to a 6' man.
RE: Lions in Central and East Africa - Pantherinae - 06-08-2015
I would love to see the 313 kg lion, of there is any measurements on that lion!
RE: Lions in Central and East Africa - GuateGojira - 06-08-2015
Like the 389 kg tiger, you will be very disappointed after this. Here is the "313 kg" lion:
*This image is copyright of its original author
Sorry, but I have saw larger lions at only 200 kg. I think the problem is this: we don't know the original source of this record (Campbell, 1937??), it is normally stated that it was "checked" by "several" persons, but lets be fair, who were those "several" people? There is "0" evidence that those "people" were officials or even some type of "experts", as far we know they could be friends of Anderson, which gladly will "check" the weight for his friend.
Other problem is that there are not a single body measurement, skull or other evidence. From my point of view, if the 389 kg tiger from the Smithsonian is problematic, the 313 kg lion, which we only have a picture and a story, is even more problematic and practically impossible to re-check.
If we want a real giant, we most see those c.272 kg lions hunted in South Africa, however check this picture:
*This image is copyright of its original author
Again, although larger than the supposed 313 kg lion, this seems to be not a very large one, which make me suspect that the record of 272 kg probably included some stomach content. However, at 302 cm this lions is very long and probably a real record that should be taken in count.
Now, check the 250 kg lion (empty) from Timbabati, South Africa:
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
THIS is a large lion, of 190-200 cm long (been conservative), by the way he looks very gorged. Yes we don't have measurements yet but the picture suggest a real big animal, not like the dwarf 313 kg lion from Anderson.
RE: Lions in Central and East Africa - peter - 06-08-2015
Excellent posts and a real nice comparison of a 6-feet man and an average east African male lion, Guate. This puts things into some perspective.
I agree the alleged 313 kg. Hectorspruit lion, reliabilitywise, compares to the 389 kg. tiger shot in 1967. V. Mazak (983) measured over 280 lion skulls (...) and went over all records. He thought the 583-pound lion shot in 1865 in South Africa (in Lydekker, 1893-1894, pp. 359, and Tjader, 1910, pp. 32) was the heaviest. Today's records underline the heaviest lions range between 550-600 pounds. Captive males can get over that mark.
Timbavati lions are large. I saw a normal coloured male and a descendant of the famous wild white Timbavati male in a Dutch zoo and talked to the biologist who worked for the zoo. They were huge and robust animals in excellent shape. At one stage, he called the white male and led him into a small room. I was about 3 feet away and saw him for quite some time. Between 560-580 pounds, I thought. As big as they come and definitely bigger than the male Amur tiger in the same zoo (a direct descendant of a wild male). The white male tiger I also saw in the zoo, at 249 kg. (he was weighed), was a trifle smaller than the white Timbavati male.
When both (lion and tiger) are about similar in weight, lions, as a result of the large skull and the mane, appear a bit larger and taller, whereas tigers seem to be a bit longer and more muscular (not more robust).
RE: Lions in Central and East Africa - Pckts - 06-08-2015
Don't forget that both the Record Lion and Tiger where weighed on scales no callobrated for big cats, the accuracy was never tested, etc. It was a Sugar scale and a Train scale. And even the Timbabati lion is controversal, since the women present says it was an estimate. But thats a different debate all together.