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+----- Thread: Modern Weights and Measurements of Jaguars (/topic-modern-weights-and-measurements-of-jaguars)
RE: Modern Weights and Measurements of Jaguars - Pckts - 02-12-2022
(02-12-2022, 10:34 PM)LoveAnimals Wrote: @GuateGojira @PcktsYeah, I forgot about that.
Hey guys I think it's better if we continue the jaguar size conversation here.
Maybe a mod can move the posts regarding jaguar sizes on the Persian leopard thread on here? Tagging @tigerluver and @sanjay here
Also regarding on the Jaguar discussion, I
recall Balam saying that Joker actually measured 250 cm in total lenght in his second captures and the measurements Pckts just posted are of his initial capture where he was smaller.
*This image is copyright of its original author
Even with his new measurement, the Jaguar posted by guate would still be longer most likely. *if measured in the same way* Since we can assume that not only did Jokers body possibly grow but his tail would as well. Regardless I think it’s safe to say that Guates jag was also taken over the curves.
RE: Modern Weights and Measurements of Jaguars - epaiva - 02-12-2022
(02-12-2022, 09:09 PM)GuateGojira Wrote:You welcome my Friend(02-12-2022, 07:19 PM)epaiva Wrote: I will take a look at the book later when I am back at home and will let you know my Friend
Thank you very much. I wish you an excellent return to home.
RE: Modern Weights and Measurements of Jaguars - AndresVida - 02-13-2022
(02-12-2022, 11:02 PM)Pckts Wrote: Even with his new measurement, the Jaguar posted by guate would still be longer most likely. *if measured in the same way* Since we can assume that not only did Jokers body possibly grow but his tail would as well. Regardless I think it’s safe to say that Guates jag was also taken over the curves.
Balam had shared with me this table made comparing the measurements of Joker and Adriano to the lions and leopard in this other chart and the body lenght of Joker is estimated assuming his tail lenght remained constant from his first to second captures
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
RE: Modern Weights and Measurements of Jaguars - Pckts - 02-13-2022
(02-13-2022, 12:42 AM)LoveAnimals Wrote:(02-12-2022, 11:02 PM)Pckts Wrote: Even with his new measurement, the Jaguar posted by guate would still be longer most likely. *if measured in the same way* Since we can assume that not only did Jokers body possibly grow but his tail would as well. Regardless I think it’s safe to say that Guates jag was also taken over the curves.
Balam had shared with me this table made comparing the measurements of Joker and Adriano to the lions and leopard in this other chart and the body lenght of Joker is estimated assuming his tail lenght remained constant from his first to second captures
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
I’m assuming Adriano was measured in a straight line since Crawshaw was there as well, so that needs to be noted since Joker was over the curves. Should also be specified in regards to the lions for comparison.
Also she kept the tail length the same and just increased the body length which may or may not be the case.
RE: Modern Weights and Measurements of Jaguars - AndresVida - 02-13-2022
(02-13-2022, 12:52 AM)Pckts Wrote: I’m assuming Adriano was measured in a straight line since Crawshaw was there as well, so that needs to be noted since Joker was over the curves. Should also be specified in regards to the lions for comparison.Joker was measured over curves in his first capture but the method used in his second one was not specified. Lilian told me that they made changes in regards to the people allowed to take measurements to allow only the most experienced to take them. Joker having a very similar BL to the lioness makes complete sense given the similar weight, and the lions are not specified as being taken between pegs either. Joker may have in fact been heavier than the lioness in the absolutes.
Also she kept the tail length the same and just increased the body length which may or may not be the case.
RE: Modern Weights and Measurements of Jaguars - Pckts - 02-13-2022
(02-13-2022, 01:36 AM)LoveAnimals Wrote:(02-13-2022, 12:52 AM)Pckts Wrote: I’m assuming Adriano was measured in a straight line since Crawshaw was there as well, so that needs to be noted since Joker was over the curves. Should also be specified in regards to the lions for comparison.Joker was measured over curves in his first capture but the method used in his second one was not specified. Lilian told me that they made changes in regards to the people allowed to take measurements to allow only the most experienced to take them. Joker having a very similar BL to the lioness makes complete sense given the similar weight, and the lions are not specified as being taken between pegs either. Joker may have in fact been heavier than the lioness in the absolutes.
Also she kept the tail length the same and just increased the body length which may or may not be the case.
He was 100% measured over the curves both times and Lillian was there for both captures as well.
In regards to the Lions, they’re not specified for any protocol but you’d need to know which one was used to accurately compare. Generally speaking, female Lions/Tigers will still be larger in frame but Jaguars dense bodies allows them attain equal weights at times.
RE: Modern Weights and Measurements of Jaguars - GuateGojira - 02-13-2022
(02-13-2022, 12:42 AM)LoveAnimals Wrote:
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
This table is from the ALPRU protocol document. They are "over the curves", from the frontal teeth (not the nose) to the tip of the tail, following all the curves of the back.
In straight line, these animals should be shorter by a significative margin, even if compared with other cats measured over curves, that take the nose as initial point of measurement.
RE: Modern Weights and Measurements of Jaguars - GuateGojira - 02-13-2022
(02-12-2022, 11:02 PM)Pckts Wrote: Regardless I think it’s safe to say that Guates jag was also taken over the curves.
Is possible, as there is no indication about the measurement method, only that was in the flesh. Sadly there are no more details about the specimen.
I have no data about the difference between the "straight line" and "over curves!" in jaguars, but if we follow the data from Indian leopards (between 8 - 12 cm), the big jaguar reported by Nelson and Goldman probably measured as large as the largest jaguar reported by De Almeida.
RE: Modern Weights and Measurements of Jaguars - AndresVida - 02-13-2022
(02-13-2022, 01:53 AM)Pckts Wrote: Generally speaking, female Lions/Tigers will still be larger in frame but Jaguars dense bodies allows them attain equal weights at times.ReplyMakes total sense, they don't need frames as large as lionesses/tigresses to equal them in body weight, everything they need lies in the density of their bones and bodies.
Jaguars' bauplan is on a bulkness and robustness level that gives us no wonders why pound for pound they're unmatchable by any living felid in terms of robusity.
RE: Modern Weights and Measurements of Jaguars - AndresVida - 02-13-2022
It's also to note that Lilian said nothing about the protocol on the server and capture.
And not all Jaguars are short framed, Joker may not be as tall but be can be very long in the body just like a lioness of similar body.
Like @GuateGojira said, the lions were taken over curves in an even more dramatic matter so the comparison is perfectly reasonable assuming Joker was also taken over curves on his second capture. With Adriano being the only cat in the chart likely taken between pegs, thus undersizing him in comparison.
RE: Modern Weights and Measurements of Jaguars - Pckts - 02-13-2022
(02-13-2022, 05:52 AM)LoveAnimals Wrote: It's also to note that Lilian said nothing about the protocol on the server and capture.Edu was also there for the first capture and specifically mentions over the curves.
And not all Jaguars are short framed, Joker may not be as tall but be can be very long in the body just like a lioness of similar body.
Like @GuateGojira said, the lions were taken over curves in an even more dramatic matter so the comparison is perfectly reasonable assuming Joker was also taken over curves on his second capture. With Adriano being the only cat in the chart likely taken between pegs, thus undersizing him in comparison.
He was also the one that got us all of Jokers specific measurements and the protocol they use.
RE: Modern Weights and Measurements of Jaguars - Pckts - 02-15-2022
* Nelson & Goldman (1933):
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
* Pocock (1939):
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
Seymour (1989):
*This image is copyright of its original author
Credit to GG for the original Post.
I'm going to compare the largest skull shown which is a Chaco Male to an Almeida Skull which will give us an idea of it's size.
Chaco Male had a skull length of 11.96 inches x 8.38'' which is a total score of 20.34''
a comparable skull from Almeida would be either Thornton Snider's male that had a total score of 20.31'' and a weight of 101kg's or Dave Lauzen's who had a total score of 20.37'' and a weight of 112kg.
Safe to assume the Chaco Male was a big Jag, comparable to the Pantanal Jaguars.
RE: Modern Weights and Measurements of Jaguars - Dark Jaguar - 02-15-2022
It doesn't surprise me the Chaco jaguar matching the Pantanal skull, its just like the Cerrado jags, they overlap with the Pantanal and Porto Primavera ones not only in weight and dimensions but also they are very similar in size to those from Chaco. My guess is also the overlapping absolutely occurs on the skull department, if only we had measurements of Cerrado specimens. but we already have a small taste of it.
Left: Adult Pantanal male jag skull
Right: Adult Cerrado male Jag skull (Tiago male)
As you all know both were killed in territorial intraespecific fight to death. That Cerrado jag skull is huge, in 2020 Pckts made an estimation on the skull size and the result was really of a big specimen (as Tiago really is).
*This image is copyright of its original author
Regarding Adriano's measure I just rechecked my email again from back then (when I got Adriano's measurements with Dr. Fernando Tortato) as you all already know he said to me ''We usually use a malleable measuring tape that involves the animal's body''. BUT there's something else he said in the end that I didn't pay attention back then (too excited focused on Adriano's size lol) in addition he said ''I don't remember exactly which tape we used in 2012 to capture Teo.''
As you can see bellow not only can we see which measuring tape was used but it was on the hands of the master Dr. Crawshaw. Obviously this could mean anything but there is good chances of Adriano/Teo/M11 have been measured the correct way.
*This image is copyright of its original author
During my conversations with Dr. Peter Crawshaw on a topic about girth dimensions (as Head Girth is my favorite measurement) I even mentioned to him there was a male jaguar named Adriano of 130 kg that was 85 cm tall and big head circumference captured by Fernando Tortato and was measured over the curves (due to the melleable tape Panthera usually use). But the thing is, Panthera team calls Adriano as both ''M11 and Teo''. Rafael Hoogesteijn in our conversation also referred that jaguar to me as ''Tel''. Back then I didn't know Dr. Crawshaw was involved in Adriano (Tel, M11) capture. what a coincidence, If I used the name ''Teo or M11'' instead of ''Adriano'' while talking to Dr. Crawshaw I could've gotten more detailed information, if only I knew it in time, sadly.
RE: Modern Weights and Measurements of Jaguars - Pckts - 02-20-2022
Edu.Fragoso
In the wild, males are usually larger than females. Of the jaguars monitored by @oncafari at @caimanpantanal, males are about 37% heavier than females, weighing over 140 kg. Tupã (photo), despite appearing to be a giant guy (and in fact he is), is comparatively "small", weighing 108 kg.
RE: Modern Weights and Measurements of Jaguars - Pckts - 03-10-2022
103kg Male
*This image is copyright of its original author