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Modern Weights and Measurements of Jaguars - Printable Version

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RE: Modern Weights and Measurements of Jaguars - Balam - 03-13-2021

(03-13-2021, 03:49 AM)Pckts Wrote:
(03-13-2021, 03:22 AM)Balam Wrote:
(03-13-2021, 03:18 AM)Pckts Wrote:
(03-13-2021, 03:08 AM)Balam Wrote:
(03-13-2021, 03:00 AM)Pckts Wrote:
(03-13-2021, 02:28 AM)Balam Wrote: @Pckts @Dark Jaguar @Rage2277 @epaiva 

So guys I have more exciting developments to share here. I've been speaking with Lilian the president of Onçafari as I wanted to get to the bottom of the case with Joker. 

She sent me voice notes and honestly I'm not comfortable sharing private conversations with biologists on here anymore as it is easy for ill intended people to use them for their purposes on different forums, but I've been speaking with many of them over the past few months and they've shared a lot of really good insights.

Lilian told me that she was present during Joker's second capture last year unlike Edu, she told me that the Onçafari team decided a few years back that it would make sense for the most equipped person to be the one in charge of getting the measurements of jaguars, her being that person. She said that including her there were three people around Joker during the time he was captured, and I was correct on my previous assertion, she told me that the 140 kg value for Joker was indeed recorded on the scale, but he so heavy that they could not position him on the right angle and the scale stopped a couple of times at 140 kg, but she reaffirmed that the value could not be recorded in its entirely, hence why they have him as "more than 140 kg".

She said Joker was a massive jaguar and there was a possibility that he got even bigger in his second capture compared to the first one. To make this assessment she told me something that I also said here before a couple of months back (she reaffirmed so many of my hypothesis without me asking her), she mentioned Felino. When Felino was first captured he was young and inexperienced, he then left the area and returned back significantly bigger. I mentioned a couple of months back how much bigger Felino had gotten when he was seen mating with massive 92 kg female Nusa on 2018, you be the judges:


*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

She said it was very common for dominant males to fluctuate often in size and get very big after returning back from periods where they've not been seen often. She thinks that may have been the case for Joker as well.

She told me Joker was quite a bit bigger than Robusto, a jaguar that weighed almost 140 kg as well. She said Joker was a "dinosaur", and sent me the following picture of his capture:


*This image is copyright of its original author

He's an absolute beast, and if you look at his mid section, he was completely empty bellied too! You're looking at a jaguar with prehistoric proportions akin to a lion or tiger.

On the second capture the team had a similar problem where he started to wake up earlier from the anesthesia so they left him, she said they were quite frustrated they couldn't get his total weight on that capture.

Overall I maintain my position that Joker is bigger than López, perhaps we can compare them side by side and see how they fare? Caiman Ecological Refuge is the perfect example of an area where jaguars have been allowed to flourished and as a result they've begin to express sizes similar to what they expressed in prehistoric times. I can't put into words how grateful I am for the work Onçafari does.
He's definitely a huge Jaguar, no doubt about it. But measurements won't lie, if she can present those they'd be much more useful. As Edu said, he didn't notice any difference but it may be different. 
I'd also be curious what protocol they used this time around. 
In regards to Lopez v Joker, I don't think the angles will allow a proper comparison but Joker is certainly in his league regardless.

*This image is copyright of its original author

Funny I just posted the comparison between him, Lopez, and Slamlet on the size comparison thread:


*This image is copyright of its original author

She told me that the first time they captured Joker it was very cold and they were trying to hurry because he was waking up from the anesthesia so she isn't sure that the measurements were taken with complete accuracy. The second time they prioritized getting his weight so I don't think they took all his measurements this time, besides perhaps his total body length. 

Edu was not present on this capture but she was, and she said he likely grew bigger, maybe the measurements from his first capture were inputted in the file because they could not get them all the second time, and that's why he didn't notice a difference. Overall both jaguars are clearly in the same weight class regardless, both being enormous, but to me, Joker just seems much ripped and muscular, if you look at his chest girth you can see he looks broader than Lopez and Slamlet, he's a special cat.

But Edu was present for the first capture and provided detail of the measurement protocol. And oddly enough he said the same thing about others in the program taking measurements incorrectly and described issues between individuals when taking measurements. And while Joker may or may not of increased in size from the first capture, she wouldn't know unless she was involved in the first capture or could compare measurements and protocol used. 

In regards to comparing their chest, you need to take into account limb position. Notice Lopez and Slamlet both have their limbs in crisscrossing angles which opens up your clavicle to drop your arms down further in a slot. Imagine sleeping on your side, if you were to sleep with your arms in their position, your chest would sink down but if you were to position your top arm on your hip you would have an increased width since your chest would be more upright.

Lilian was present on the first capture as well, she saw him both times and she does think he may have gotten bigger, that's why she mentioned Felino so much to me because she wanted to emphasize how much jaguars can fluctuate in size from one season to another. You can see Felino was dwarfing one of the largest females from the area.

About the arms, the angle certainly favors joker but the muscle definition doesn't lie, IMO he is easily the most muscular and ripped cat out of the three.
She was present when Edu captured him and made measurements?
I believe he was captured twice before this last time, correct?

Yes, she's present in all captures and she's the one responsible for the jaguars' measurements, that's why she's such a good primary source and she's very happy to provide us with information but I don't want to overwhelm her all at once. Joker was captured twice in total, last year being his last one, you can see they managed to collar him this time around.


RE: Modern Weights and Measurements of Jaguars - Pckts - 03-13-2021

(03-13-2021, 04:33 AM)Balam Wrote:
(03-13-2021, 03:49 AM)Pckts Wrote:
(03-13-2021, 03:22 AM)Balam Wrote:
(03-13-2021, 03:18 AM)Pckts Wrote:
(03-13-2021, 03:08 AM)Balam Wrote:
(03-13-2021, 03:00 AM)Pckts Wrote:
(03-13-2021, 02:28 AM)Balam Wrote: @Pckts @Dark Jaguar @Rage2277 @epaiva 

So guys I have more exciting developments to share here. I've been speaking with Lilian the president of Onçafari as I wanted to get to the bottom of the case with Joker. 

She sent me voice notes and honestly I'm not comfortable sharing private conversations with biologists on here anymore as it is easy for ill intended people to use them for their purposes on different forums, but I've been speaking with many of them over the past few months and they've shared a lot of really good insights.

Lilian told me that she was present during Joker's second capture last year unlike Edu, she told me that the Onçafari team decided a few years back that it would make sense for the most equipped person to be the one in charge of getting the measurements of jaguars, her being that person. She said that including her there were three people around Joker during the time he was captured, and I was correct on my previous assertion, she told me that the 140 kg value for Joker was indeed recorded on the scale, but he so heavy that they could not position him on the right angle and the scale stopped a couple of times at 140 kg, but she reaffirmed that the value could not be recorded in its entirely, hence why they have him as "more than 140 kg".

She said Joker was a massive jaguar and there was a possibility that he got even bigger in his second capture compared to the first one. To make this assessment she told me something that I also said here before a couple of months back (she reaffirmed so many of my hypothesis without me asking her), she mentioned Felino. When Felino was first captured he was young and inexperienced, he then left the area and returned back significantly bigger. I mentioned a couple of months back how much bigger Felino had gotten when he was seen mating with massive 92 kg female Nusa on 2018, you be the judges:


*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

She said it was very common for dominant males to fluctuate often in size and get very big after returning back from periods where they've not been seen often. She thinks that may have been the case for Joker as well.

She told me Joker was quite a bit bigger than Robusto, a jaguar that weighed almost 140 kg as well. She said Joker was a "dinosaur", and sent me the following picture of his capture:


*This image is copyright of its original author

He's an absolute beast, and if you look at his mid section, he was completely empty bellied too! You're looking at a jaguar with prehistoric proportions akin to a lion or tiger.

On the second capture the team had a similar problem where he started to wake up earlier from the anesthesia so they left him, she said they were quite frustrated they couldn't get his total weight on that capture.

Overall I maintain my position that Joker is bigger than López, perhaps we can compare them side by side and see how they fare? Caiman Ecological Refuge is the perfect example of an area where jaguars have been allowed to flourished and as a result they've begin to express sizes similar to what they expressed in prehistoric times. I can't put into words how grateful I am for the work Onçafari does.
He's definitely a huge Jaguar, no doubt about it. But measurements won't lie, if she can present those they'd be much more useful. As Edu said, he didn't notice any difference but it may be different. 
I'd also be curious what protocol they used this time around. 
In regards to Lopez v Joker, I don't think the angles will allow a proper comparison but Joker is certainly in his league regardless.

*This image is copyright of its original author

Funny I just posted the comparison between him, Lopez, and Slamlet on the size comparison thread:


*This image is copyright of its original author

She told me that the first time they captured Joker it was very cold and they were trying to hurry because he was waking up from the anesthesia so she isn't sure that the measurements were taken with complete accuracy. The second time they prioritized getting his weight so I don't think they took all his measurements this time, besides perhaps his total body length. 

Edu was not present on this capture but she was, and she said he likely grew bigger, maybe the measurements from his first capture were inputted in the file because they could not get them all the second time, and that's why he didn't notice a difference. Overall both jaguars are clearly in the same weight class regardless, both being enormous, but to me, Joker just seems much ripped and muscular, if you look at his chest girth you can see he looks broader than Lopez and Slamlet, he's a special cat.

But Edu was present for the first capture and provided detail of the measurement protocol. And oddly enough he said the same thing about others in the program taking measurements incorrectly and described issues between individuals when taking measurements. And while Joker may or may not of increased in size from the first capture, she wouldn't know unless she was involved in the first capture or could compare measurements and protocol used. 

In regards to comparing their chest, you need to take into account limb position. Notice Lopez and Slamlet both have their limbs in crisscrossing angles which opens up your clavicle to drop your arms down further in a slot. Imagine sleeping on your side, if you were to sleep with your arms in their position, your chest would sink down but if you were to position your top arm on your hip you would have an increased width since your chest would be more upright.

Lilian was present on the first capture as well, she saw him both times and she does think he may have gotten bigger, that's why she mentioned Felino so much to me because she wanted to emphasize how much jaguars can fluctuate in size from one season to another. You can see Felino was dwarfing one of the largest females from the area.

About the arms, the angle certainly favors joker but the muscle definition doesn't lie, IMO he is easily the most muscular and ripped cat out of the three.
She was present when Edu captured him and made measurements?
I believe he was captured twice before this last time, correct?

Yes, she's present in all captures and she's the one responsible for the jaguars' measurements, that's why she's such a good primary source and she's very happy to provide us with information but I don't want to overwhelm her all at once. Joker was captured twice in total, last year being his last one, you can see they managed to collar him this time around.

He could possibly be the largest modern Jag capture to date, I just wish Rafael would have supplied Lopez's dimensions.


RE: Modern Weights and Measurements of Jaguars - Pckts - 03-13-2021

(03-13-2021, 02:28 AM)Balam Wrote: @Pckts @Dark Jaguar @Rage2277 @epaiva 

So guys I have more exciting developments to share here. I've been speaking with Lilian the president of Onçafari as I wanted to get to the bottom of the case with Joker. 

She sent me voice notes and honestly I'm not comfortable sharing private conversations with biologists on here anymore as it is easy for ill intended people to use them for their purposes on different forums, but I've been speaking with many of them over the past few months and they've shared a lot of really good insights.

Lilian told me that she was present during Joker's second capture last year unlike Edu, she told me that the Onçafari team decided a few years back that it would make sense for the most equipped person to be the one in charge of getting the measurements of jaguars, her being that person. She said that including her there were three people around Joker during the time he was captured, and I was correct on my previous assertion, she told me that the 140 kg value for Joker was indeed recorded on the scale, but he so heavy that they could not position him on the right angle and the scale stopped a couple of times at 140 kg, but she reaffirmed that the value could not be recorded in its entirely, hence why they have him as "more than 140 kg".

She said Joker was a massive jaguar and there was a possibility that he got even bigger in his second capture compared to the first one. To make this assessment she told me something that I also said here before a couple of months back (she reaffirmed so many of my hypothesis without me asking her), she mentioned Felino. When Felino was first captured he was young and inexperienced, he then left the area and returned back significantly bigger. I mentioned a couple of months back how much bigger Felino had gotten when he was seen mating with massive 92 kg female Nusa on 2018, you be the judges:


*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

She said it was very common for dominant males to fluctuate often in size and get very big after returning back from periods where they've not been seen often. She thinks that may have been the case for Joker as well.

She told me Joker was quite a bit bigger than Robusto, a jaguar that weighed almost 140 kg as well. She said Joker was a "dinosaur", and sent me the following picture of his capture:


*This image is copyright of its original author

He's an absolute beast, and if you look at his mid section, he was completely empty bellied too! You're looking at a jaguar with prehistoric proportions akin to a lion or tiger.

On the second capture the team had a similar problem where he started to wake up earlier from the anesthesia so they left him, she said they were quite frustrated they couldn't get his total weight on that capture.

Overall I maintain my position that Joker is bigger than López, perhaps we can compare them side by side and see how they fare? Caiman Ecological Refuge is the perfect example of an area where jaguars have been allowed to flourished and as a result they've begin to express sizes similar to what they expressed in prehistoric times. I can't put into words how grateful I am for the work Onçafari does.

I'm actually talking to Edu now about Joker.
Quote:She told me Joker was quite a bit bigger than Robusto, a jaguar that weighed almost 140 kg as well. She said Joker was a "dinosaur", and sent me the following picture of his capture:

He said something interesting about Robusto

Edu "Robusto, who weighed 137 kg, was full and his blood was with high level of fat"

In comparison, I asked if Joker had been full or baited and he said "I asked to one of the biologists who was in the capture and he told me that he was normal" 
"Not that full"

But I found it very interesting to see that they test their fat levels in blood. 



RE: Modern Weights and Measurements of Jaguars - Balam - 03-13-2021

(03-13-2021, 04:44 AM)Pckts Wrote:
(03-13-2021, 04:33 AM)Balam Wrote:
(03-13-2021, 03:49 AM)Pckts Wrote:
(03-13-2021, 03:22 AM)Balam Wrote:
(03-13-2021, 03:18 AM)Pckts Wrote:
(03-13-2021, 03:08 AM)Balam Wrote:
(03-13-2021, 03:00 AM)Pckts Wrote:
(03-13-2021, 02:28 AM)Balam Wrote: @Pckts @Dark Jaguar @Rage2277 @epaiva 

So guys I have more exciting developments to share here. I've been speaking with Lilian the president of Onçafari as I wanted to get to the bottom of the case with Joker. 

She sent me voice notes and honestly I'm not comfortable sharing private conversations with biologists on here anymore as it is easy for ill intended people to use them for their purposes on different forums, but I've been speaking with many of them over the past few months and they've shared a lot of really good insights.

Lilian told me that she was present during Joker's second capture last year unlike Edu, she told me that the Onçafari team decided a few years back that it would make sense for the most equipped person to be the one in charge of getting the measurements of jaguars, her being that person. She said that including her there were three people around Joker during the time he was captured, and I was correct on my previous assertion, she told me that the 140 kg value for Joker was indeed recorded on the scale, but he so heavy that they could not position him on the right angle and the scale stopped a couple of times at 140 kg, but she reaffirmed that the value could not be recorded in its entirely, hence why they have him as "more than 140 kg".

She said Joker was a massive jaguar and there was a possibility that he got even bigger in his second capture compared to the first one. To make this assessment she told me something that I also said here before a couple of months back (she reaffirmed so many of my hypothesis without me asking her), she mentioned Felino. When Felino was first captured he was young and inexperienced, he then left the area and returned back significantly bigger. I mentioned a couple of months back how much bigger Felino had gotten when he was seen mating with massive 92 kg female Nusa on 2018, you be the judges:


*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

She said it was very common for dominant males to fluctuate often in size and get very big after returning back from periods where they've not been seen often. She thinks that may have been the case for Joker as well.

She told me Joker was quite a bit bigger than Robusto, a jaguar that weighed almost 140 kg as well. She said Joker was a "dinosaur", and sent me the following picture of his capture:


*This image is copyright of its original author

He's an absolute beast, and if you look at his mid section, he was completely empty bellied too! You're looking at a jaguar with prehistoric proportions akin to a lion or tiger.

On the second capture the team had a similar problem where he started to wake up earlier from the anesthesia so they left him, she said they were quite frustrated they couldn't get his total weight on that capture.

Overall I maintain my position that Joker is bigger than López, perhaps we can compare them side by side and see how they fare? Caiman Ecological Refuge is the perfect example of an area where jaguars have been allowed to flourished and as a result they've begin to express sizes similar to what they expressed in prehistoric times. I can't put into words how grateful I am for the work Onçafari does.
He's definitely a huge Jaguar, no doubt about it. But measurements won't lie, if she can present those they'd be much more useful. As Edu said, he didn't notice any difference but it may be different. 
I'd also be curious what protocol they used this time around. 
In regards to Lopez v Joker, I don't think the angles will allow a proper comparison but Joker is certainly in his league regardless.

*This image is copyright of its original author

Funny I just posted the comparison between him, Lopez, and Slamlet on the size comparison thread:


*This image is copyright of its original author

She told me that the first time they captured Joker it was very cold and they were trying to hurry because he was waking up from the anesthesia so she isn't sure that the measurements were taken with complete accuracy. The second time they prioritized getting his weight so I don't think they took all his measurements this time, besides perhaps his total body length. 

Edu was not present on this capture but she was, and she said he likely grew bigger, maybe the measurements from his first capture were inputted in the file because they could not get them all the second time, and that's why he didn't notice a difference. Overall both jaguars are clearly in the same weight class regardless, both being enormous, but to me, Joker just seems much ripped and muscular, if you look at his chest girth you can see he looks broader than Lopez and Slamlet, he's a special cat.

But Edu was present for the first capture and provided detail of the measurement protocol. And oddly enough he said the same thing about others in the program taking measurements incorrectly and described issues between individuals when taking measurements. And while Joker may or may not of increased in size from the first capture, she wouldn't know unless she was involved in the first capture or could compare measurements and protocol used. 

In regards to comparing their chest, you need to take into account limb position. Notice Lopez and Slamlet both have their limbs in crisscrossing angles which opens up your clavicle to drop your arms down further in a slot. Imagine sleeping on your side, if you were to sleep with your arms in their position, your chest would sink down but if you were to position your top arm on your hip you would have an increased width since your chest would be more upright.

Lilian was present on the first capture as well, she saw him both times and she does think he may have gotten bigger, that's why she mentioned Felino so much to me because she wanted to emphasize how much jaguars can fluctuate in size from one season to another. You can see Felino was dwarfing one of the largest females from the area.

About the arms, the angle certainly favors joker but the muscle definition doesn't lie, IMO he is easily the most muscular and ripped cat out of the three.
She was present when Edu captured him and made measurements?
I believe he was captured twice before this last time, correct?

Yes, she's present in all captures and she's the one responsible for the jaguars' measurements, that's why she's such a good primary source and she's very happy to provide us with information but I don't want to overwhelm her all at once. Joker was captured twice in total, last year being his last one, you can see they managed to collar him this time around.

He could possibly be the largest modern Jag capture to date, I just wish Rafael would of supplied Lopez's dimensions.

DJ and I have already been working on this behind the scenes, basically, Dr. Hoogesteijn doesn't have them, so I contacted Dr. Calvacanti who according to him has them but she keeps a very low profile and I'm not holding my breath that my message will reach her through the platform I was able to get a hold of her.


RE: Modern Weights and Measurements of Jaguars - Dark Jaguar - 03-13-2021

@Balam

Thats interesting news and you better keep that contact NO MATTER WHAT lol.

Joker is a Lioness sized felid and one more proof for those who still doubt (there are many) that jags attain Tigress and Lioness sizes.

From that comparison angle of Lopez, Joker and Slamet I see Lopez is the emptiest cat from the 3 and I don't freaking care someone coming up here saying about the small 2-3 kg bait used when the same could've been used for Joker and Slamet. And Even if baits weren't used for the other 2, Lopez seems the emptiest cat out of the 3.


your quote
''She told me that the first time they captured Joker it was very cold and they were trying to hurry because he was waking up from the anesthesia so she isn't sure that the measurements were taken with complete accuracy''

Joker's measure are starting to become a puzzle in my head.


Also Robusto measurements shall be our main next target.


I am glad Felino is really back, I recall him young back in the days when onçafari used to post dynamic videos on youtube about each individual, he was so young and still with his sister Felina and I wonder where she is now.



@Pckts

Since you are talking to him in this moment about Joker don't let it pass the chance of getting his head circumference (and Shaka's if possible) measures.

Anyways Nice info on Robusto possessing a certain amount of fat in his blood, but regardless I think his measures will definitely be very competitive to our jaguars Pita, Tel, Zezão, Joker, Shaka and others, my bet is that Girth-Wise he could be one of the top ones rivaling Pita and Joker, but we'll see if we're lucky.

Lilian is present in many (if not all) jaguar capture by onçafari, and I think she is the Head of taking the measurements (I only hoped she took straight lines measurements) she can be a good source of infos for us.

About Lopez, as Balam explained Rafael Hoogesteijn told me Sandra Cavalcanti is the only one who possesses Lopez measurements and nobody else.



One more thing, from this picture bellow of Robusto taken by Joares May, its is PROBABLY taken after his capture since he looks with stomach content like you were informed he was on his capture, I recall a description of Joares May bellow this pic saying Robusto was one of the largest jaguars he ever captured (he was the one who captured Tel with Tortato though) but I am not sure if the pic bellow is right after he woke up from sedation, if you note Robusto's head is so big we can't even see if he got a collar or not.

Robusto ( His name ''Robust'' does justice to what he is, no matter the fat level in his blood, this dude is a tank )


*This image is copyright of its original author




I also think It will be more rare seeing many many pics of him and Joker since from what its known about their current dynamics at Caiman and from the little they've been showing Tupã male alongside Magrão (skinny) are the dominant males in the area at moment who covers most of it and Tupã even got territory outside Fazenda Caiman, we gotta give credits to these 2 small dominant jags, they are beasts.




To wrap it up yesterday I sent a message to Sandra Cavalcanti herself to see if I can get those God damn measurements of Lopez. I really hooooope Sandra Cavalcanti isn't a female version of Leandro Silveira lol because if she is.... Lopez measures will be a goner for good.


RE: Modern Weights and Measurements of Jaguars - Balam - 03-13-2021

@Dark Jaguar check the last few posts of the last two pages of the directory thread because there you will see more photos of Robusto from Joares, as well as finally footage from the captures of Sandro.

I actually believe Joker is easily the emptiest one of the three since his belly lies even flatter compared to the rest of his body, but Lopez looked rather empty as well.


RE: Modern Weights and Measurements of Jaguars - Balam - 03-13-2021

Rewilding Argentina confirming the weights of Qaramta I posted before:



QARAMTA, THE GREAT JAGUAR FROM ARGENTINA

Qaramta is a four-year-old male jaguar who lives in El Impenetrable National Park, in the Argentinian Chaco.

During the two times when our rewilding team captured Qaramta, first to deploy and then to replace his GPS collar, they were amazed at the size of this marvelous cat.

And it comes as no surprise since Qaramta weighed 108 and 113,6 kilos in each capture—making him the biggest jaguar ever recorded in Argentina's history.

So turns out he's only 4? Not even on his full prime yet, I'm going to make a wild guess that he will weight around or over 120 kg by the time he's seven. What strong representative of the Chacoan jaguars he is.


RE: Modern Weights and Measurements of Jaguars - Maritimus77 - 03-29-2021

Just recently I've read into a work dealing with the skull measurements of various jaguar populations which was published by Hoogesteijn & Mondolfi in 1996. I've made a few notes and wrote down some of the data being investigated and this should serve as a short summary (or reference point) when talking about my favourite big cat's skull.


Pantanal Jaguar:


Condylobasal Length: 252.32mm for males (n=?); 227.25mm for females (n=?)
Greatest Skull Length: 290.5mm for males (n=48); 257.6mm for females (n=28)
Zygomatic Width: 194.2mm for males (n=48); 172.5mm for females (n=28)
Total Score (Length + Width): 485.2mm for males (n=51); 428.6mm for females (n=31)
Upper Carnassial Tooth Length: 29.25mm for males (n=?); 27.69mm for females (n=?)
Interorbital Breadth: 52.15mm for males (n=?); 45.38mm for females (n=?)
Length/Width Ratio: ~1.496 for males (n=48); ~1.493 for females (n=28)



Llanos Jaguar:



Condylobasal Length: 251.3mm for males (n=?); 219.98mm for females (n=?)
Greatest Skull Length: 289.6mm for males (n=23); 242.8mm for females (n=23)
Zygomatic Width: 194.1mm for males (n=23); 166.1mm for females (n=23)
Total Score (Length + Width): 483.7mm for males (n=23); 408.9mm for females (n=23)
Upper Carnassial Tooth Length: 28.26mm for males (n=?); 26.3mm for females (n=?)
Interorbital Breadth: 55.92mm for males (n=?); 48.26mm for females (n=?)
Length/Width Ratio: ~1.492 for males (n=23); ~1.462 for females (n=23)



Amazon Jaguar:



Condylobasal Length: 235.31mm for males (n=?); 209.9mm for females (n=?)
Greatest Skull Length: 262.6mm for males (n=19); 237mm for females (n=4)
Zygomatic Width: 175.9mm for males (n=19); 160.2mm for females (n=4)
Total Score (Length + Width): 438.5mm for males (n=19); 397.2mm for females (n=4)
Upper Carnassial Tooth Length: 28.06mm for males (n=?); 26.55m for females (n=?)
Interorbital Breadth: 49.07mm for males (n=?); 44.25mm for females (n=?)
Length/Width Ratio: ~1.493 for males (n=19); ~1.479 for females (n=4)



Central American Jaguar:



Condylobasal Length: 223.14mm for males (n=?); 194.7mm for females (n=?)
Greatest Skull Length: 243.6mm for males (n=7); 215.2mm for females (n=4)
Zygomatic Width: 166.4mm for males (n=7); 148.7mm for females (n=4)
Total Score (Length + Width): 410mm for males (n=7); 364mm for females (n=4)
Upper Carnassial Tooth Length: 26.56mm for males (n=?); 24.82mm for females (n=?)
Interorbital Breadth: 54.73mm for males (n=?); 57.39mm for females (n=?)
Length/Width Ratio: ~1.464 for males (n=7); ~1.447 for females (n=4)








Personal Remarks:


Unsurprisingly the Pantanal jaguars stand out among the other three populations due to the huge size of their skulls in both length & width as well as the size of their upper carnassial teeth. The Llanos jaguars take a good 2nd place although you can see that the sample size is only about half as big and the tendency of the direction with added individuals can only be estimated. 

What made me curious is the interorbital breadth of the four populations as the absolute biggest measurements were attained by the female Central American jaguars who probably weigh just above 40kg and are thus much smaller than the huge Llanos/Pantanal males; maybe someone of the veteran users wants to give their take on that matter.

The last thing which turned out to be very unexpected were the results of the length/width ratios (greatest length/zygomatic width in this case); the Central American jaguars stand out in this case as a smaller ratio means a proportionally wider skull relative to its length. The jaguars of the Pantanal region would inherit the last place taking this characteristic into account, very interesting indeed (although I have to say that the differences are very marginal). According to these statistics the ultimate jaguar skull might just be a hybrid version of the Central American/Pantanal populations (proportionally ofc).



RE: Modern Weights and Measurements of Jaguars - Balam - 03-29-2021

Hi @Maritimus77, good to see you here.

Good compilation on craniometric values divided by populations, I believe most of the data is conclusive in that statistically speaking Llanos and Pantanal jaguars are pretty much tied size-wise if we go by historical data, the heaviest reliable jaguar from the Llanos was a male hunted in El Rosero, Venezuela that weighed 148 kg, and was included in Rafael Hoogesteijn book, I believe "El Tigre Americano":


*This image is copyright of its original author


*This image is copyright of its original author

This is tied with Lopez, the jaguar which Rafael also participated in capturing in the northern Pantanal who topped out a scale of 136 kg with velocity and was later estimated to have fully weighed 148 kg by the biologists present. I made this comparison of Lopez next to a Bengal tiger that weighed 177 kg next to him to show how massive he truly was, both cats pretty much empty bellied:


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If you scroll through the previous page you'll see our discussion about Joker, a jaguar that in my view is likely the heaviest weighed by scientists as he registered 140 kg on a digital scale while slipping from said scale and not fully lifted up, alluding to that he was likely much heavier than that, but I digress.

The heaviest jaguar from the Llanos captured by Dr. Hoogesteijn weighed 121 kg, a little heavier than Almeida's heaviest Pantanal male of 119 kg.

We've recently gathered plenty of weight data for Pantanal jaguars who are by far the most studied population, though unfortunately for their Llanos counterparts recent information on them in terms of sizes is almost completely null. The most recent data of Llanos jaguar weights come from the study: Jaguars, pumas, their prey base, and cattle ranching: Ecological interpretations of a management problem


*This image is copyright of its original author

Two males of unknown age weighed 87.5 kg, much lower than the value of 105 kg gathered by Hoogesteijn and Mondolfi in their study. Granted the sample size is minuscule and likely doesn't represent an accurate view of the jaguars at Hato Piñero as a whole. Here there are some individuals from Hato Piñero captured by biologist and Llanos jaguar expert Włodzimierz Jędrzejewski (more pictures in the Llanos jaguar thread):


*This image is copyright of its original author

There are some very big males on here like M18 or M33, it would be interesting to know their weights, but overall my impression from seeing these jaguars (and I could be wrong) is that they don't look as "well-fed" as those from the Pantanal or other hatos from the Colombian Llanos that may have greater prey biomass like Hato la Aurora. The thesis that many of us have proposed here is that the current situation in Venezuela has had an impact on jaguars as many are indiscriminately hunted which lowers their genetic quality, and as their main prey is also poached out, the jaguars lack the resources to grow to the same dimensions they likely attained a few centuries ago when they had almost complete undisturbed access not only to native prey, but also feral cattle and horses numbering in the hundreds of thousands across the Llanos.

We believe that this phenomenon took place in the Pantanal as well during the times Almeida performed his hunts since it was during the peak time of jaguar poaching, as well as their main prey the caiman. But thankfully protections from changed legislation and involvement from scientists have made the Pantanal population much stronger and the numbers of natural prey items have skyrocketed as well. We can confidently deduct that Pantanal jaguars are nowadays greater than during the times of Almeida because of the dozens of recent captures, there is a multitude of males that surpass Almeida's record of 119 kg. A full list of 181 recent jaguar captures from multiple populations can be accessed here.

We're expectant to see if Panthera will at some point release the data they have on jaguars captured at Hato la Aurora in the Colombian Llanos, an area that I believe has all the right pieces to produce some very interesting jaguars, like this one for example:


*This image is copyright of its original author

I made this comparison of two very large males, to the left one from Hato la Aurora in the Llanos, and to the left from Caiman Ecological Refuge in the Pantanal, to see how well they fare against each other. Both are massive and compare really well to each other, IMO:


*This image is copyright of its original author


Overall I think that all this weight data pretty much aligns with the skull values you posted as these two populations represent the largest of the jaguar populations studied, though it would be interesting to see how the jaguars from the Llanos de Moxos in Bolivia, the third-largest floodplain ecosystem in South America, would fare since the environment is pretty much the same as the Oricono Llanos and the Pantanal. We're just lacking a lot of data and even photos on them.

The rest of the analysis of the width/length of the skulls of jaguars from Central America is very interesting. Many jaguars from places like Costa Rica heavily prey upon sea turtles, so the relative wider zygoma might be advantageous for them in order to perforate the thick armor of the turtles.


RE: Modern Weights and Measurements of Jaguars - Dark Jaguar - 03-30-2021

Capture of Brazuka male during capture expedition of Onçafari Project under the Supervision of Onçafari's coordinator CENAP/ICMBio.

credits: wconservation

April 2012

The Founder and President of the Onçafari project Mario Haberfeld on his second capture season followed by Ronaldo Morato the Head of CENAP/ICMBio and Rômulo Mello ex president of ICMBio on a capture in Miranda south Pantanal at Fazenda Caiman area where Mario Heberfeld and his onçafari project works and all datas of the Jaguar captured were collected for the CENAP archive.




Brazuka

Brazuka ( portuguese slang for ''Brazilian'' ) is a male jaguar who's territory was covered completely inside the Fazenda Caiman (Pantanal - Brasil) during his prime and onçafari's President Mario Haberfeld thought it would be great him to be monitored as his territory is completely within the area of Fazenda Caiman where he works at, unlike 110 kg Nati male captured in October 2011 along with 85 kg Chuva female, Nati's territory covered only 30% of the Fazenda caiman area towards south with the other 70% of Nati's territory covered outside of the Fazenda Caiman boundaries.




THE CAPTURE.

http://www.wconservation.com/revista.pdf



ON THE TRACK OF THE ONÇA.

Summary


Written by: SILVANA ASSUMPÇÃO

Photos: MARIO HABERFELD PRESIDENT OF ONÇAFARI


''Part of the team gathered in Fazenda Caiman for the second capture season had already been there for 11 days when I arrived on the last day of March. Besides Bernardo and Helder, who live there, Mario Haberfeld ( Founder and President of Onçafari ), Simon and Joares May the vet responsible for setting up the loop traps for the capture of jaguars. On the same flight as me, from São Paulo, Ronaldo Morato another veterinarian and the Head of CENAP.

Two days later the group was joined by Rômulo Mello, an agricultural engineer from the Chico Mendes Institute for Biodiversity Preservation ( ICMBio ) a large division of Ibama to which CENAP is linked. Yes, you can't go around out there capturing jaguars and putting collars on them without all the proper official permissions.

Linked to the project since the beginning, these Institutions support and help directly in the research and with inputs, such as, for example, the camera traps - a large part of the 60 installed in Refúgio Ecológico Caiman are from CENAP.

The first morning I set off to check the traps with Mario Haberfeld, Ronaldo Morato and Joares May, Tracking the footprints would be used to guide the placement of the traps.  The nine used this season had already been installed before my arrival, but several times some were moved or a new one set.) I took Simon's lessons. The slightest sign let him know whether it was a female or male jaguar, whether it was moving fast, cautious or running where it had stopped.  At a certain moment a magnificent Giant Anteater of almost 2 meters long (those from Brazil are the largest in the world) appeared at a short distance. I had a fascinating moment. Simon took me by the hand and always checking the wind direction, he took me closer and closer to the distracted Anteater. We spent a very long 15 minutes "hanging out" with it, and stood less than 2 meters away while he scrutinized a bush with compassion. Some more time and Simon warned us that the owner of those very powerful black claws (did you know that the Giant Anteater is the only animal in the Pantanal that the jaguar respects, that can kill it?) it was showing signs of uneasiness with our observation presence, we then lightly moved away as did the Anteater in another direction. I followed the trap review in the mornings and afternoons of all the following days feeling closer and closer to the expected jaguar that might not come.



*This image is copyright of its original author


The round was not to see if there was a jaguar there, but for Joares to verify if everything was as it should be or to change some detail. Day after day the anxiety grew. Adding up the spaces between the snares set up to trap the jaguar by the paw. To be successful the jaguar would have to step on 4.5 square, the sum of the areas of the nine armed traps, within the 53 thousand hectares of the Fazenda Caiman.


Joares May checking a very subtle loop trap ( all the vegetation around and the pieces of woods which are displaced are ''landscaping'' of it to guide the paces of the animal ).


*This image is copyright of its original author


A trap transmitter, connected to the trap mechanism and placed high up, would be in charge of transmitting a signal to a device in the hands of the team, which would be consulted every two hours, day and night from anywhere.

But the locations of the traps were perfectly strategic and little by little I gained absolute confidence that a jaguar had to go through them. A jaguar is like us, it prefers to walk on a clean path not blocked by branches, it avoids potholes if it can, it goes on or near the road. And in all the traps there were attractants, like the smell of glands or urine of the animal (very expensive products brought by Mario from the United States). Ronaldo Morato also went to some of them to give a Esturro ( as the jaguar's vocalization is called ) using a device for this purpose. If any jaguar heard it, it would step by there later to see what it was all about. And the days went by, revisions were made, new trails were tracked, traps were changed, and everyone kept an eye on the transmitter. But no jaguar... The day arrived for the team to leave.

Since there were many traps to disassemble, Mario Haberfeld and Joares May got up very early to begin the work which would take hours. I heard about it later, when I was asleep.  I had gone to bed the day before with unrestrained sadness for everyone, for Mario, for me, who wanted so much to see a jaguar! My cell phone alarm goes off at 6 a.m. At the same time the phone in my bedroom goes off too. How strange! It took me a few seconds to jump out of bed to see what it was. On the other end of the line, Ronaldo's voice, or Helder's - I was so excited that I don't remember anymore. "Silvana, run, we're waiting for you here in front of the headquarters. We caught a jaguar!" Honestly, I cried. I got onto my clothes and went out into the wind, and look at that, the transmitter hadn't picked up anything!  Mario and Joares stared at his figure in surprise. Joares first thought, seeing against the light that it was a big Tapir, it was going to be such a hard work to get it out of there! But it happened to be Brazuca, a majestic male jaguar weighing 112 kilos lying there. Time has passed and Brazuca proved to be perfect for the project, his whole territory is in Caiman Refuge area and he has even been filmed together with Chuva female. There must be a cub coming along, a jaguar only roams together when it mates. The third season started while this text was being written. A new " 90 kilos female has already joined the group...  It is beautiful to see all this love for jaguars in the country.''






*This image is copyright of its original author







*This image is copyright of its original author





Ronaldo Morato Head of CENAP (on the left) and Mario Haberfeld Founder and President of Onçafari project (on the right) putting and adjusting a collar on Brazuka male.


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*This image is copyright of its original author





Mario Haberfeld and Joares May collecting Brazuka's datas.


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Brazuka's protocol paper.


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*This image is copyright of its original author




*This image is copyright of its original author




*This image is copyright of its original author




*This image is copyright of its original author



RE: Modern Weights and Measurements of Jaguars - Pckts - 04-03-2021


*This image is copyright of its original author


*This image is copyright of its original author


*This image is copyright of its original author


*This image is copyright of its original author



RE: Modern Weights and Measurements of Jaguars - Balam - 04-09-2021

Interesting, I was scrolling through the pictures of Matheus' second capture on the Onças do Rio Negro FB page and I noticed that Gediendson reiterated to someone who asked for his weight that it was 134 kg, just like the lady on the right who was also present in the capture stated on her own page before. Where did the value of 121 kg came from? It seems to be erroneous


*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author



RE: Modern Weights and Measurements of Jaguars - Pckts - 04-14-2021

I'm sure he's been posted here already Ajo was first captured Nov. 2019 and said to be 109kg and just about 4 years old


then he was recaptured months later and said be around 4 years old at that time and he weighed 119kg. 



No doubt he'll be a massive male once he hits that 8 year old mark.


RE: Modern Weights and Measurements of Jaguars - Balam - 04-14-2021

(04-14-2021, 11:02 PM)Pckts Wrote: I'm sure he's been posted here already Ajo was first captured Nov. 2019 and said to be 109kg and just about 4 years old


then he was recaptured months later and said be around 4 years old at that time and he weighed 119kg. 



No doubt he'll be a massive male once he hits that 8 year old mark.

His two weights were included in a scientific publication: Cryptorchidism in free-living jaguar (Panthera onca): first case report



*This image is copyright of its original author

He'll be huge by the time he reaches his peak prime years.


RE: Modern Weights and Measurements of Jaguars - Balam - 04-15-2021

Under Oncafari's Robusto IG post:


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"Have you found a jaguar that weighed more than 150 kg?"

"We already got one that weighed over 140! He was so heavy that the balance we were using did not manage to read the exact weight after the 140 kg mark"

They were just reassuring what Lilian had said to me on their page.