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+--- Thread: Bear and bigcats anatomy (/topic-bear-and-bigcats-anatomy)
Bear and bigcats anatomy - parvez - 11-25-2016
Big cats must be those that have equal density and strength of muscles all over the body. That may be the reason why one of them is called KING OF BEASTS. They must have learned or copied ruthless approach from dogs and brutal approach from bears. That may be the reason dogs hate them
. That may also be reason why people who copy things are addressed as copy cats. These are just my PERSONAL OPINIONS. No hurtings to anyone intended.
RE: Animal Legends and Lore - parvez - 11-26-2016
I think it is because of big cats bears chose to be omnivores from their previous carnivorous nature. Big cats being proportionally muscled all over the body and with potentially higher stamina to fight for longer periods must have started to dominate them with both agility and smartness (or cunning nature). The bears must have got intimidated by the big cats. They understood that they cannot continue being carnivores (as cats have started to be dominant) or being scavengers of other's kills. They instead chose to be omnivores(which is smart, a very good move if you ask me) and retain their body strength through some means like hard work(as @
RE: Animal Legends and Lore - brotherbear - 11-26-2016
In "Survival Skills of Bears" I talk about the omnivore diet.
Legends and Lore is more about any legendary individual animal or about the myths surrounding an animal by some particular group of people. That sort of thing.
RE: Animal Legends and Lore - parvez - 11-26-2016
In post No 1 I guessed reason why one of the big cats is called king of beasts. It is mentioned as king of cats in many traditions. Post No 2 may be inappropriate to some extent. But why do you recommend Post no 1 to move to other section? Anyways i will contact mods to move post no 2 to "appropriate" thread.
RE: Animal Legends and Lore - brotherbear - 11-26-2016
I suppose the idea of a 'King of Beasts' could fit into 'Legends and Lore'.
RE: Animal Legends and Lore - Polar - 11-27-2016
@parvez,
Polar bears (much like other bears) do not have "weaker hearts" nor do they tire more easily than big cats. In fact, it is the opposite.
While there are well-recorded instances of big cats engaging in long fights and explosive movements, there are also records of bears defeating prey many times their own size using endurance and brute power, not to mention that even a large bear can run miles at near-max speeds without stopping.
Consider the account of a female polar bear swimming for 9 DAYS straight without pausing (sadly, her cub died along the way):
Polar Bear Swims for Nine Days Straight
RE: Animal Legends and Lore - parvez - 11-27-2016
(11-27-2016, 01:15 AM)Polar Wrote: @parvez,
Polar bears (much like other bears) do not have "weaker hearts" nor do they tire more easily than big cats. In fact, it is the opposite.
While there are well-recorded instances of big cats engaging in long fights and explosive movements, there are also records of bears defeating prey many times their own size using endurance and brute power, not to mention that even a large bear can run miles at near-max speeds without stopping.
Consider the account of a female polar bear swimming for 9 DAYS straight without pausing (sadly, her cub died along the way):
Polar Bear Swims for Nine Days Straight
I agree bears have stamina. They do not have weak hearts. They are very powerful animals. But in comparison to rest of body, the strength of muscles in heart is less. I will take example of grizzly bear, here is the video where after a brief fight with other bear, the bear on the left in between 2:40 to 2:50 gasps heavily, his lips shivering, saliva pouring out due to gasping. That does not happen with big cats. That is what i was saying, they can do or enjoy doing a constant work for prolonged intervals, but when they are forced to do maximum stuff during which there is lot of demand for supply of blood from heart, they gasp heavily which means they have a weaker heart in comparison to other parts of the body. Hope you understand.
RE: Animal Legends and Lore - Polar - 11-27-2016
@parvez,
I still doubt your assessment. Even in big cat videos (after a quick one minute fighting bout), the fighting participants tire out very easily. Both bears and big cats are capable of power that almost no other group of mammal possess, so it makes quite sense that they should tire out more easily (assuming they aren't at a constant pace.)
Even so, bears hold the record for being able to run much farther than a feline at the same speed, even beating the wolf's endurance within this aspect. They are better grapplers due to increased limb flexibility and robusticity, and thus are able to do this for prolonged periods of time.
Not to mention the muscles of a bear are greater suited for endurance and brute force, than those of a canid or felid, which are more for sprints and explosive power. However, bears can still produce the same power as the other two carnivoran groups, even with less fast-twitch fibers. The reason to this is still being looked into by the informative Ursus Arctos from Carnivora.
RE: Animal Legends and Lore - parvez - 11-27-2016
@Polar Tiredness is different from gasping, shivering of lips, saliva coming out etc. Severe gasping can be seen only in organisms with weak heart. The bear was heavily gasping in the video above after a brief fight.
RE: Animal Legends and Lore - Polar - 11-27-2016
@parvez,
That still doesn't prove that bears have weaker hearts than felines, even on a relative scale. There must be more research on this subject in order to prove your assumptions, instead of simply pointing to video evidence.
I can (if you want) show you some videos of bears fighting powerfully for prolonged periods of time without any of the symptoms you mentioned above, so for now, your argument isn't a sound one.
RE: Animal Legends and Lore - parvez - 11-27-2016
(11-27-2016, 10:32 AM)Polar Wrote: Not to mention the muscles of a bear are greater suited for endurance and brute force, than those of a canid or felid, which are more for sprints and explosive power. However, bears can still produce the same power as the other two carnivoran groups, even with less fast-twitch fibers. The reason to this is still being looked into by the informative Ursus Arctos from Carnivora.
As I have already said, as bears have weak hearts, in adjustment to this con, they have developed brutal power from their muscles. They have descended from a creature named bear dog if i am right. So, they must have built endurance just like dogs. While they maintained the same strength in muscles since generations through hard work and fight with other creatures, their heart however seemed to be weak. Hence they developed brute power to end fights very soon without being getting need for delivering maximum energy for the fights.
RE: Animal Legends and Lore - parvez - 11-27-2016
(11-27-2016, 10:54 AM)Polar Wrote: I can (if you want) show you some videos of bears fighting powerfully for prolonged periods of time without any of the symptoms you mentioned above,
Sure.
RE: Animal Legends and Lore - brotherbear - 11-27-2016
(11-26-2016, 10:26 AM)parvez Wrote: I think it is because of big cats bears chose to be omnivores from their previous carnivorous nature. Big cats being proportionally muscled all over the body and with potentially higher stamina to fight for longer periods must have started to dominate them with both agility and smartness (or cunning nature). The bears must have got intimidated by the big cats. They understood that they cannot continue being carnivores (as cats have started to be dominant) or being scavengers of other's kills. They instead chose to be omnivores(which is smart, a very good move if you ask me) and retain their body strength through some means like hard work(as @brotherbearsaid) and feeding on soft tissues. But unfortunately in this process they probably weakened their ability to digest flesh or muscular tissue. Though polar bears do feed on flesh, they seem to struggle. The heart seems to work very hard to pump blood for digesting flesh. That is why their movement is very slow. You can see their slow movement while they hunt prey like seals and try to drag them onto land or trying to transport it in between land masses. They drag a few feet, then stop, gasp, and then move it again slowly, rest in between(even here their movement is slow). They seem to be struggling a lot due to their weak heart. But we can sense the other animals in the snow. They are relatively not as slow as the polar bear. They seem to be active, their gasping is faster, their movement in between the drags is not as slow. Their moves are quick. That explains the mystery of bears which i have been struggling to find out these days!!
To start with ( again ) this has nothing to do with 'Legends and Lore'. Also, your personal theories here are ridiculous. Big cats had absolutely nothing to do with bears being omnivores. Your theories of big cat vs bear muscles are absurd. Your theory concerning stamina is absurd. Your theory of bears having trouble digesting meat is absurd.
RE: Animal Legends and Lore - parvez - 11-27-2016
(11-27-2016, 01:40 PM)brotherbear Wrote:(11-26-2016, 10:26 AM)parvez Wrote: I think it is because of big cats bears chose to be omnivores from their previous carnivorous nature. Big cats being proportionally muscled all over the body and with potentially higher stamina to fight for longer periods must have started to dominate them with both agility and smartness (or cunning nature). The bears must have got intimidated by the big cats. They understood that they cannot continue being carnivores (as cats have started to be dominant) or being scavengers of other's kills. They instead chose to be omnivores(which is smart, a very good move if you ask me) and retain their body strength through some means like hard work(as @brotherbearsaid) and feeding on soft tissues. But unfortunately in this process they probably weakened their ability to digest flesh or muscular tissue. Though polar bears do feed on flesh, they seem to struggle. The heart seems to work very hard to pump blood for digesting flesh. That is why their movement is very slow. You can see their slow movement while they hunt prey like seals and try to drag them onto land or trying to transport it in between land masses. They drag a few feet, then stop, gasp, and then move it again slowly, rest in between(even here their movement is slow). They seem to be struggling a lot due to their weak heart. But we can sense the other animals in the snow. They are relatively not as slow as the polar bear. They seem to be active, their gasping is faster, their movement in between the drags is not as slow. Their moves are quick. That explains the mystery of bears which i have been struggling to find out these days!!
To start with ( again ) this has nothing to do with 'Legends and Lore'. Also, your personal theories here are ridiculous. Big cats had absolutely nothing to do with bears being omnivores. Your theories of big cat vs bear muscles are absurd. Your theory concerning stamina is absurd. Your theory of bears having trouble digesting meat is absurd.
Sure. For those fanatics, who do not have the ability to think logically, they do appear absurd. For those who think bear is everything, bear is superior, bear is super animal above every animal in the world, for those people it does appear absurd.
RE: Bear and bigcats anatomy - brotherbear - 11-27-2016
http://shaggygod.proboards.com/
Food Habits of Grizzly Bears and Black Bears in the Yellowstone EcoystemBear
Food Graph (25 KB pdf)
www.nps.gov/yell/naturescience/upload/ynpfoodgraph-2008.pdf
Bears are omnivores that have relatively unspecialized digestive systems similar to those of carnivores. The primary difference is that bears have an elongated digestive tract, an adaptation that allows bears more efficient digestion of vegetation than other carnivores (Herrero 1985). Unlike ruminants, bears do not have a cecum and can only poorly digest the structural components of plants (Mealey 1975). To compensate for inefficient digestion of cellulose, bears maximize the quality of vegetal food items ingested, typically foraging for plants in phenological stages of highest nutrient availability and digestibility (Herrero 1985).
The food habits of grizzly bears in Greater Yellowstone Ecosystem (GYE) have been described in detail by Knight et al. (1984) and Mattson et al. (1991). Overall, army cutworm moths, whitebark pine nuts, ungulates, and cutthroat trout are the highest quality food items available to grizzly bears in the GYE. These foods impart the greatest nutritive value in exchange for the least foraging effort (Craighead et al. 1995). Grizzly bear food habits are influenced by annual and seasonal variation in available foods.
Spring
From March through May, ungulates, mostly elk and bison, comprise a substantial portion of a grizzly bear's diet. Grizzly bears feed on ungulates primarily as winter-killed and wolf-killed carrion but also through predation on elk calves (Gunther and Renkin 1990, Mattson 1997). Some large male grizzly bears also prey on adult bison during early spring. Grizzly bears also dig up pocket gopher caches in localized areas where they are abundant. Other items consumed during spring include succulent grasses and sedges during early green-up, dandelion, clover, spring-beauty, horsetail, and ants. During spring, grizzly bears will also feed on whitebark pine seeds stored in red squirrel caches during years when there is an abundance of over-wintered seeds left over from the previous fall (Mattson and Jonkel 1990).
Summer
From June through August, grizzly bears continue to consume succulent grasses and sedges, dandelion, clover, spring-beauty, horsetail, and ants. In addition, thistle, biscuit root, fireweed, fern-leaved lovage, and army cutworm moths are eaten. Predation on elk calves continues through mid-July when most grizzly bears are no longer able to catch calves (Gunther and Renkin 1990). In areas surrounding Yellowstone Lake, bears feed on spawning cutthroat trout (Reinhart 1990). Starting around midsummer, grizzly bears begin feeding on strawberry, globe huckleberry, grouse whortleberry, and buffaloberry. By late summer, false truffles, bistort, and yampa are included in the diet, and grasses, sedges, and dandelion become less prominent. Throughout the summer, grizzly bears scavenge the remains of wolf-killed ungulate carcasses usurped from wolf packs. In late summer during the breeding season, grizzly bears scavenge the carcasses of bull bison that have been gored and die while competing for female bison.
Fall
From September through October, whitebark pine nuts are the most important bear food during years when seeds are abundant (Mattson and Jonkel 1990). However, whitebark pine is a masting species that does not produce abundant seed crops every year. Other items consumed during fall include: pond weed root, sweet cicely root, bistort root, yampa root, strawberry, globe huckleberry, grouse whortleberry, buffaloberry, clover, horsetail, dandelion, ants, false truffles, and army cutworm moths. Some grizzly bears prey on adult bull elk during the fall elk rut.
Black Bears
The food habits of black bears in the Yellowstone ecosystem are similar to those of grizzly bears. The primary difference is that meat and roots are less prominent in the diet of black bears (Knight et al. 1988). Black bears have short, curved claws better suited for climbing than digging. In contrast, grizzly bears have longer, straighter claws and a larger shoulder muscle mass which makes them more efficient at digging for food items in the soil such as roots, bulbs, corms, and tubers, as well as rodents and their caches (Herrero 1978). Overall, grizzly bears consume more meat and black bears more plant material.
LITERATURE CITED
Craighead, J.J., J.S. Sumner, and J.A. Mitchell. 1995. The grizzly bears of Yellowstone, their ecology in the Yellowstone Ecosystem, 1959-1992. Island Press, Covelo, California, USA.
Gunther, K.A., and R.A. Renkin. 1990. Grizzly bear predation on elk calves and other fauna of Yellowstone National Park. Int. Conf. Bear Res. And Manage. 8:329-334.
Herrero, S. 1978. A comparison of some features of the evolution, ecology and behavior of black and grizzly/brown bears. Carnivore 1(1):7-17. _____. 1985. Bear Attacks-Their Causes and Avoidance. Winchester Press, New Century Publishers, Inc., Piscataway, N.J. 287pp.
Knight, R.R., D.J. Mattson, and B.M. Blanchard. 1984. Movements and habitat use of the Yellowstone grizzly bear. U.S. Dep. Inter., Natl. Park Serv., Interagency Grizzly Bear Study Team. Unpubl. Rep. 177pp.
_____, B.M. Blanchard, and D.J. Mattson. 1988. Yellowstone Grizzly bear investigations: Annual report of the Interagency Grizzly Bear Study Team, 1987. U.S. Dep. Inter., Natl. Park Serv. 80pp.
Mattson, D.J., and C. Jonkel. 1990. Stone pines and bears. Pages 223-236 in Proceedings-Symposium on Whitebark Pine Ecosystems: Ecology and Management of a High-Mountain Resource, U.S. Dep. Agric., U.S. For. Serv. 386pp.
Mattson, D.J., B.M. Blanchard, and R.R. Knight. 1991. Food habits of Yellowstone grizzly bears, 1977-87. Can. J. Zool. 69:1619-1629.
Mattson, D.J., B.M. Blanchard, and R.R. Knight. 1992. Yellowstone grizzly bear mortality, human habituation, and whitebark pine seed crops. J. Wildl. Manage. 56:432-442.
Mattson, D.J. 1997. Use of Ungulates by Yellowstone grizzly bears Ursus arctos. Biol. Conserv. 81:161-177.
Mealay, S.P. 1975. The natural food habits of free-ranging grizzly bears in Yellowstone National Park, 1973-1974. M.S. Thesis, Montana State Univ., Bozeman. 158pp.
Reinhart, D.P. 1990. Grizzly bear habitat use on cutthroat trout spawning streams in tributaries of Yellowstone Lake. M.S. Thesis, Montana State Univ., Bozeman. 128pp.
www.nps.gov/yell/naturescience/bearfoods.htm