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+--- Thread: behind the big cat's and bear's, who is the top predator? (/topic-behind-the-big-cat-s-and-bear-s-who-is-the-top-predator)
RE: behind the big cat's and bear's, who is the top predator? - Styx38 - 05-25-2020
You make a fair point about both focusing mostly on juveniles and sub-adults of 400 + kg ungulates.
However, I wanted to go over Horse predation.
I am aware of Leopards occasionally killing Zebra. I am also aware of Leopards killing Onagers, which could substitute for the Burros killed by Mountain Lions.
However, the Leopard's smaller and weaker cousin, the Snow Leopard kills free-ranging Horses, including adults, throughout their home range.
"Of the domestic ungulates, the yaks and horses range freely
Snow leopards also killed horses more than expected (χ L 2 = 31.31, df = 4, P < 0.01)
Thus the annual per capita loss in relation to the state’s annual per capita income is relatively higher in the GMWS compared with Kibber, which could be attributed to the greater proportion of adult (>5 years old) yaks (65% of total yak loss) and horses (52% of total horse depredation) lost to predators in the GMWS."
Namgail et. al. 2007. Carnivore-Caused Livestock Mortality in Trans-Himalaya
Here is a Snow Leopard with a Zanskari Horse kill.
*This image is copyright of its original author
The Zanskari is the most common breed in Ladakh, India.
Their size:
"705-992 lbs (320-450 kg)"
https://www.horsebreedspictures.com/zanskari-horse.asp
Which puts them at approx. the size of a Mustang.
"Most wild horses stand 13 to 15 hands high (52-60 inches) and weigh from 700 to 1,000 pounds"
https://www.blm.gov/programs/wild-horse-and-burro/about-the-program/about-wild-horses-and-burros
They have also killed various Horses in other parts of the Himalayas as well as different ranges like Mongolia.
RE: behind the big cat's and bear's, who is the top predator? - Styx38 - 05-26-2020
(05-25-2020, 11:51 PM)OncaAtrox Wrote:(05-25-2020, 11:28 PM)Styx38 Wrote: You make a fair point about both focusing mostly on juveniles and sub-adults of 400 + kg ungulates.I completed agree these are impressive feats by snow leopards, but keep in mind that they are completely different species from leopards and are in fact more closely related to the tiger. The Pantherine clades consistsof tiger-snow leopard and lion-jaguar-leopard.
However, I wanted to go over Horse predation.
I am aware of Leopards occasionally killing Zebra. I am also aware of Leopards killing Onagers, which could substitute for the Burros killed by Mountain Lions.
However, the Leopard's smaller and weaker cousin, the Snow Leopard kills free-ranging Horses, including adults, throughout their home range.
"Of the domestic ungulates, the yaks and horses range freely
Snow leopards also killed horses more than expected (χ L 2 = 31.31, df = 4, P < 0.01)
Thus the annual per capita loss in relation to the state’s annual per capita income is relatively higher in the GMWS compared with Kibber, which could be attributed to the greater proportion of adult (>5 years old) yaks (65% of total yak loss) and horses (52% of total horse depredation) lost to predators in the GMWS."
Namgail et. al. 2007. Carnivore-Caused Livestock Mortality in Trans-Himalaya
Here is a Snow Leopard with a Zanskari Horse kill.
*This image is copyright of its original author
The Zanskari is the most common breed in Ladakh, India.
Their size:
"705-992 lbs (320-450 kg)"
https://www.horsebreedspictures.com/zanskari-horse.asp
Which puts them at approx. the size of a Mustang.
"Most wild horses stand 13 to 15 hands high (52-60 inches) and weigh from 700 to 1,000 pounds"
https://www.blm.gov/programs/wild-horse-and-burro/about-the-program/about-wild-horses-and-burros
They have also killed various Horses in other parts of the Himalayas as well as different ranges like Mongolia.
To be fair I believe the snow leopard and cougar are the most underrated of the big cats.
Leopards are underrated to.
I am not talking about the crazy Leopard fans who put the Congo Leopard in the same ballpark as the Pantanal Jaguar. I am just saying in a general sense.
Leopards have also killed various Equids, likely the rare free-ranging/semi-feral type in places like Iran and Himalayan India.
RE: behind the big cat's and bear's, who is the top predator? - Ashutosh - 05-26-2020
@
Whereas in Eastern Himalayas, snow leopards and tigers prey upon Takin (mostly Bhutan, Mishmi and Red takin) which can also weigh upto 400 kilos. Takin are unknown outside their range.
Anecdotally, there are stories of snow leopards attacking wild yaks from Mongolia which are significantly bigger than domesticated yaks. A person I spoke to also said there were some legends of the ghost aka snow leopard attacking a Bactrian Camel!!!
Personally speaking, they are easily the most spellbinding big cat considering where they live and the extreme things they have to do to find food (look at that video of a snow leopard tumbling more than 150 foot with a blue sheep) and mate.
RE: behind the big cat's and bear's, who is the top predator? - Styx38 - 05-26-2020
(05-26-2020, 02:40 AM)Ashutosh Wrote: @Styx38, not only horses, snow leopards also prey upon Kiang or Tibetan wild ass (largest wild ass) throughout their shared range. These animals can weigh close to 450 kilos as well.
Whereas in Eastern Himalayas, snow leopards and tigers prey upon Takin (mostly Bhutan, Mishmi and Red takin) which can also weigh upto 400 kilos. Takin are unknown outside their range.
Anecdotally, there are stories of snow leopards attacking wild yaks from Mongolia which are significantly bigger than domesticated yaks. A person I spoke to also said there were some legends of the ghost aka snow leopard attacking a Bactrian Camel!!!
Personally speaking, they are easily the most spellbinding big cat considering where they live and the extreme things they have to do to find food (look at that video of a snow leopard tumbling more than 150 foot with a blue sheep) and mate.
Out of curiosity, is there any study of Leopards predating on adult Kiang?
RE: behind the big cat's and bear's, who is the top predator? - Ashutosh - 05-26-2020
@
https://www.snowleopardnetwork.org/bibliography/Mallon_IPBSL_Ladakh_1984.pdf
It’s an old study, but there is mention of snow leopard preying upon Kiang in Tibet and Mongolia where their populations are bigger than in Ladakh.
Snow leopards in Ladakh generally prefer Cliff-hugging ungulates - Himalayan Ibex, Blue sheep aka Bharal, the rare Himalayan Tahr and Markhor in Ladakh area. This is not to say they won’t prey upon more plain dwelling animals like Tibetan Gazelle, Kiang, Argali sheep and in winters will even eat pikas, Himalayan marmots and hares. The Mustang region of Nepal is very similar in topography and climate.
Because of these areas falling in the rain shadow region of Himalayas, snow leopards have only so many options. When you move eastward, snow leopards regularly venture below the tree line to get their prey and this opens up so many species for predation for example the musk deer. And, in Eastern Himalayas, their range overlaps with tigers, which means there is an overlap of prey species here like takin and goral.
RE: behind the big cat's and bear's, who is the top predator? - Styx38 - 05-26-2020
(05-26-2020, 10:15 AM)Ashutosh Wrote: @Styx38, by leopard you mean snow leopard, right? Because leopards don’t share their habitat with Kiangs, but snow leopards do.
https://www.snowleopardnetwork.org/bibliography/Mallon_IPBSL_Ladakh_1984.pdf
It’s an old study, but there is mention of snow leopard preying upon Kiang in Tibet and Mongolia where their populations are bigger than in Ladakh.
Snow leopards in Ladakh generally prefer Cliff-hugging ungulates - Himalayan Ibex, Blue sheep aka Bharal, the rare Himalayan Tahr and Markhor in Ladakh area. This is not to say they won’t prey upon more plain dwelling animals like Tibetan Gazelle, Kiang, Argali sheep and in winters will even eat pikas, Himalayan marmots and hares. The Mustang region of Nepal is very similar in topography and climate.
Because of these areas falling in the rain shadow region of Himalayas, snow leopards have only so many options. When you move eastward, snow leopards regularly venture below the tree line to get their prey and this opens up so many species for predation for example the musk deer. And, in Eastern Himalayas, their range overlaps with tigers, which means there is an overlap of prey species here like takin and goral.
Interesting. Wild Asses are probably more dangerous than free-ranging or Wild Horses. Their domestic counterparts are more aggressive towards small carnivores.
Anyway, here are some older accounts of Leopards predating on Horses.
*This image is copyright of its original author
Source: Mammals of the Soviet Union, Volume 2 Part 2 Carnivora (Hyenas and Cats)
One of the areas, the Badhyz Reserve, has various feral or free-ranging Horses.
"There are also some clear management actions needed, including, removal of the feral horse population before it increases any more, the importance of securing access to water sources outside the reserve for the kulan and providing infrastructural and logistical support for the reserve staff by upgrading their equipment"
Kaczensky and Linnell. 2014. Rapid assessment of the mammalian community in the Badhyz Ecosystem, Turkmenistan
So it seems a Leopard may have killed a free-ranging Horse, or many of them in Turkmenistan.
Some important Horse breeds there include:
Akhal-Teke Horse; WEIGHT: 900 to 1,000 pounds
https://www.thesprucepets.com/meet-the-akhal-teke-1886116
Also,the Iomud, which is stated to be up to 450 kg, though it is on a defunct source.
RE: behind the big cat's and bear's, who is the top predator? - Ashutosh - 05-27-2020
@
It’s another reason I find strange that some people don’t consider snow leopards “Big cats” because they don’t roar even though they are heavier than few subspecies of leopards!! Who is going to hear them roar in such desolate places except their potential prey.
RE: behind the big cat's and bear's, who is the top predator? - Styx38 - 05-27-2020
(05-27-2020, 12:34 AM)Ashutosh Wrote: @Styx38, depends of what you mean by smaller carnivores because the heaviest snow leopards (77 kilos) probably match the heaviest leopards (80-85 kilos) in this region.
It’s another reason I find strange that some people don’t consider snow leopards “Big cats” because they don’t roar even though they are heavier than few subspecies of leopards!! Who is going to hear them roar in such desolate places except their potential prey.
I meant that Donkeys can attack small Carnivores like Foxes.
The Snow Leopard is medium sized. What is interesting is that while they are known for their agility, not too many people know that they can kill animals as large as 450 kg (1000 pound) Feral Horses, as well as free ranging Yak and wild Argali.
RE: behind the big cat's and bear's, who is the top predator? - Stripedlion2 - 07-25-2020
In my opinion I put the wolves and hyenas up there with the big 3 . Wolves are very successful and they can kill any prey in North America with the right strategy and enough numbers . Hyenas too if they outnumber lions or a single lion the lion is in trouble,sometimes the lion scares them off sometimes he doesn’t it all depends. As for bears they are efficient but not like big cats and wolves. Since most bears are omnivores I would say that bears are the best at stealing/defending kills . Herehttps://youtu.be/J3euEMWC8tg a female polar bear scares off a wolf pack from a kill. https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.yellowstonepark.com/.amp/things-to-do/grizzly-bear-vs-wolves One bear held 24 wolves at bay! If a bear gets big enough then there isn’t much to do when he wants your food or kill
RE: behind the big cat's and bear's, who is the top predator? - cheetah - 10-12-2020
Definitely the small cats like cheetahs,serval etc
https://trackingthewild.com/can-a-cheetah-kill-an-ostrich/
https://www.nikela.org/serval/
RE: behind the big cat's and bear's, who is the top predator? - Shadow - 10-12-2020
This thread is pure "in my opinion" thread. It depends so much what different people prefer. One like cats, some other canines etc.
And in what way it can be said, that tigers, lions or bears would be top predators in any other way than it, that they happen to be biggest? There are animals, which are way more successful hunters than any of these "top predators". Naturally they are all on top of the food chain and in that way on top.
But since this thing is once again very subjective overall, it would be more interesting, imo, to see always some thoughts, when some animal is mentioned. Not text in which is tried to prove why some animal would be better than others which is impossible, but more what things make it special in the eyes of you, whoever is posting about some species. Don´t just put some species and then no explanation why, those give nothing really.
And remember same time, that in this thread there will never be one final answer. Only way to put animals in some kind of order in some way is to give some specific thing to determine in what way it´s better than others. And even then it´s often difficult, when there is controversial information.
RE: behind the big cat's and bear's, who is the top predator? - Styx38 - 11-05-2020
Leopards have a preference for adult feral/free-range/grazing Cattle in temperate zones.
Also, these areas seem to lack major predators/competitors, which enables Leopards to have a go after big prey.
Iran:
Leopards have a preference for both adult male Cattle (Free-grazing) as well as juveniles in Iran.
*This image is copyright of its original author
"(a) Male cattle are preferred by leopards because males have a larger body mass, and leopards in Iran are among the biggest; (b) juvenile cattle (calves and heifers) are preferred by leopards because they are easy to catch and thus are highly vulnerable to depredation; and © differently colored cattle are neither preferred nor avoided by leopards and taken according to the cattle availability. "
Khorozyan et. al. (2018) Cattle selectivity by leopards suggests ways to mitigate human–leopard conflict
China:
Leopard predation on Feral Cattle in China.
"Figure 2 shows the number of livestock preyed on by the north China leopard within the 4 year study period (2015–2018) in and around the Tieqiaoshan Provincial Nature Reserve. A total of 173 livestock were killed, out of which 125 (72%) were adult cattle, 40 (23%) were calves, and 8 (5%) were sheep.
This study shows that the number of livestock species killed by north China leopards in and around the Tieqiaoshan Provincial Nature Reserve differed significantly. Among the livestock, north China leopards killed more cattle. This is contrary to the findings of [3,25], who mentioned in their studies that leopard killed more goats, followed by sheep. This could probably be due to the reasons that goats are not domesticated in and around of this reserve, and most of the sheep kept are not free-range. Therefore, the free-range system of the farming of cattle practiced in and around the reserve makes it ideal for the north China leopard to prey them. In the free-range system, the cattle roam freely outdoors rather than being confined in an enclosure for 24 h each day"
*This image is copyright of its original author
source: Consolee et. al. 2020. Human-Leopard Conflict: An Emerging Issue of North China Leopard Conservation in Tieqiaoshan Provincial Nature Reserve in Shanxi Province, China
RE: behind the big cat's and bear's, who is the top predator? - Shadow - 11-27-2020
@GreenGrolar Your latest posting here was totally off topic and I deleted it. This thread is about other predators, not tigers vs bears. Then again you also had some errors in your posting. If you are interested about tigers and bears, read for instance latest posting by @peter in thread "On the edge of extinction - A - the tiger (panthera tigris)".
RE: behind the big cat's and bear's, who is the top predator? - GreenGrolar - 11-27-2020
My apologies Shadow. I was having lunch while on my phone. Therefore, I misread the topic. Will try not to let it happen again.
Anyway, the top predators after the lion and tiger and bears and jaguar will be the cougar. The cougar is capable of bringing down prey up to eight times it’s weight although it is not going to be easy.
RE: behind the big cat's and bear's, who is the top predator? - Ashutosh - 11-27-2020
@GreenGrolar, snow leopards have been documented killing Kiangs, Wild yaks and even one instance of a bactrian camel more than 10 times it’s weight.