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+--- Thread: Man-eaters (/topic-man-eaters)
Man-eaters - peter - 04-03-2015
INTENTION OF THE THREAD
The relation between humans and big cats always was kind of tense. The reason is big cats are potentially dangerous. Some time ago, I read tigers probably accounted for more than a million humans.
There are so many books about man-eaters, I wouldn't know where to start. As a regurgitation (I couldn't find a better word just right now) of well-known stories isn't intended, I propose to select those that offer some kind of insight as to the causes. This also means this thread isn't the place to post your average before-bedtime-horror-story.
HOW TO POST
If you post, you got to deliver a bit more than the facts only. The reason for this request is we want to know if those who hunted man-eaters were right when they concluded most man-eaters were more or less man-made.
Here's a checklist of the things we want to know about:
- region (elevation, climate, accessibility, vegetation, big cat and human cultures);
- circumstances (any changes that could have resulted in different habits of big cats and humans?);
- big cat (age, gender, fitness, size and character);
- humans (in what way did those living under the spell of the man-eater react?)
- hunter (experience and ideas), and
- conclusions.
When you post, distinguish between a part with scans and photographs (a) and a part with your own conclusions (b). We don't expect lots of words, just the right ones.
RE: MAN-EATERS - Pckts - 04-03-2015
Both T24 and T42 are confirmed man eaters.
With multiple victims and attacks.
T42
*This image is copyright of its original author
Of Ranthambhore is notorious for charging and is the famous male that chased a jeep for over a mile.
Here is one of his victims
23rd June, 2013
Asha Ram Berwa s/o Gayarsi Berwa, aged 22 was attacked & mauled by Fateh or T 42 (Male of Qualji), when he was searching for his buffalo near some farm around the Devpura Dam. Currently recuperating in a hospital and out of danger.
A classic case of man-animal conflict. Why don't the authorities take measures to stop cattle grazing in the forest?
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
and here is a link on the multiple death's contributed to T24 as well.
http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/travelogue...in-14.html
I definitely attribute both T24 and T42s aggression towards people because they were both captured, collared or medicated. It is noted by numerous eye witnesses that their attitude began to change after the events.
RE: MAN-EATERS - Pckts - 04-03-2015
Man attacked by Tigress in Bandipur, Pug mark visable over his left shoulder.
The tiger's pug marks are clearly visible on the left shoulder of the deceased man. Pic: Karnataka forest department. - See more at:http://www.indiatogether.org/2010/jun/env-maneater.htm#sthash.yECqKbtp.dpuf
*This image is copyright of its original author
Here is the tiger who was caught for it
*This image is copyright of its original author
and killed this farmer as well, was caught in india.
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
another man eater, but Im not sure from where
*This image is copyright of its original author
I don't know enough about the stories behind these ones, but I would assume the Ranth attacked was because the tigress was scarred and confused. The other two I am not sure, maybe encroachment, injury, protection, etc.
I dont know...
RE: MAN-EATERS - peter - 04-03-2015
PC
My lead post has an instruction on how to post in this new thread. I said wild man-eaters and not incidents in facilities. I also said we want to see a bit more than a collection of stories and pictures that could, to use Corbett's words, make a stone weep.
I don't want this thread developing into just another collection of the usual stories. The aim is to get to a bit more insight. We want to know why some wild big cats develop into man-eaters and we also want to know if it's true many of them are man-made.
After two responses to your posts on the threads I started today, you might think I'm after you. Not so. Your imput is appreciated, but reading a lead post first would also be appreciated. I propose to delete the posts on incidents in facilities first. See what you can find on the Ranthambore tigers.
As to what I mean with 'conclusions' resulting in some kind of insight (see above). Here's some ideas.
One thing I noticed in tigers is they like privacy. If they want to communicate, they will tell you. The problem is many of us seem unable to understand them. If we project this observation to wild India, we could conclude tigers also want privacy. Male tigers in particular seem very sensistive in this respect. Biologists sedating tigers have to realize that some tigers might take an intrusion very personal. So much so, it could result in a loss of respect. Some tigers might decide to turn the tables on humans. When a tiger surprises a human, chances are he will attack more often than not.
The decision to close some Indian reserves isn't as bad as many think. Tigers and humans just don't mix. Fysical distance is one of the most important conditions to co-exist and the best way to get there is closing a number of reserves.
Another factor to consider is inborn dislike. Those who know about captive tigers think about 1 in 12 is a killer. It often shows right at the start and the best way to prevent problems is to avoid direct contact. My guess is wild tigers produce more animals with an inborn dislike. Many think Indian tigers learned to deal with humans, but my opinion is they didn't. Russia could be the exception to the rule, but one has to remember Primorye is a large place with few tourists and biologists. If a tiger wants privacy, it's right there. The moment tigers lose privacy, their attitude towards humans will change. Anywhere.
A third factor to consider is sudden (and often violent) change and the loss of communication. Sumatra, for instance, is rapidly changing and the result is tigers often have no option but to conquer a place to live the hard way. The moment they clash with humans, accidents are bound to happen.
Wild lions respond in a different way towards humans. The reason is they evolved in treeless plains also attractive for humans. Wild lions, more so than tigers, know about humans and learned to accept them to an extent. Man-eaters are not uncommon, but most occur in regions in which they are unable to hunt, let alone raise a family.
The problem nearly everywhere is ever more humans. As most of them are very poor, they often have no other option but to compete with big cats for space. It is a tragedy for both.
RE: MAN-EATERS - GuateGojira - 04-03-2015
Great topic Peter.
One point to take in count, the knowledge of the predator/prey game with the great cats and the humans.
Lions and leopards evolved in the same cradle with humans, the three are African creatures and rises side by side. Interestingly, in many parts, wild lions learned to fear humans, in the case of East Africa, they practically run away when they see the tall figures dressed with the red cloth (although in some cases not). With leopards, I read (don't remember where) that they evolved predating primates, included humans! That could explain why they are so elusive, but at the same tame, they create such a carnage when they became man-eaters.
With tigers, it was another history. Humans reached India first, which the lion (apparently), while the tiger was a latter "invader". Interestingly, since that first encounter at about 12,000 years ago, lions declined, humans and tigers thrived and in the case of the last one, they developed they greatest form. However, the religious point of view of India also helped the tigers, and in the case of the man-eaters, they were feared and not hunted. That is why Corbett was like a "savior" for them.
Finally, the jaguar, which evolved in a free-human area, there are not reports (as far I know) of man-eaters jaguars. There are attacks, that is sure, but there are not reports of specific specimens killing humans. Why? That will be touched in a next post.
There are many things to be said in this point, I will share my data and point of view about them this next weekend. For now, we are in Holy Week and I am participating in the activities in my Parish, so I will not be able to write until Sunday.
Greetings to all.
RE: MAN-EATERS - Pckts - 04-05-2015
@peter
the link posted about T24 and T42 has multiple accounts of their attacks, the situations behind them and so forth.
I just don't have much time to sort through the pages atm. I deleted the captive attack and will research much more come monday.
But I do think the Fetah story has merit, eye witness accounts attached to the link and he is a confirmed man eater, same with T24. But I will have to dig around a little to find my T24 info. Which I will do at some point.
RE: MAN-EATERS - Pckts - 04-05-2015
T24A tiger from Ranthambore National Park killed a forester on Thursday, claiming its second human victim since March and its third since 2010.The big cat, known as T-24, had previously killed a young villager on March 8, and a woman in 2010. The incident suggests that either there is something seriously wrong with the tiger reserve management, or that the tiger is no longer scared of human beings. Either situation demands immediate intervention by the National Tiger Conservation Authority (NTCA), wildlife enthusiasts and experts said.
*This image is copyright of its original author
Man eater: Experts believe the killer tiger may have lost its fear of peopleThe seriousness of the situation is discernible from the fact that in the latest incident the big cat attacked forester Ghisu Singh, 34, while he was walking with three other forest guards and about a dozen construction labourers engaged in repairing Tourist Route No: 1. Singh was supervising the construction work. The tiger, which is around six years old, came from behind, picked Singh up by his neck, and disappeared into the dense forest before anyone could react. The incident has instilled a sense of fear in the entire Ranthambore staff, sources revealed. Rajpal Singh, a tiger expert with NTCA and a member of the State Board for Wildlife, conceded that the incident was alarming as it suggested that the big cat was no more scared of humans. "Though it was a bit early to call T-24 a man-eater, certainly now onwards, the field staff would have to keep a distance from the big cat and simultaneously monitor its movements," he asserted. Wildlife enthusiast and expert on Ranthambore tigers Dhirendra Godha said the incident had left the entire staff scared. Rajasthan's principal chief conservator of forests U.M. Sahai said a detailed report had been sought from the tiger reserve detailing the behaviour of T-24. However, sources pointed out that the authorities failed to monitor the heavy tourist influx after the recent Supreme Court ban on tourism in the park was withdrawn. The tourist activities and heavy vehicular traffic might have irritated the big cat and prompted him to attack a person who was part of a large group of people, they said.Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/indiahome/indianews/article-2224452/Ranthambhores-fearless-big-cat-claims-human-victim.html#ixzz3WN5dqje3
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Why has Ustaad, who is extremely familar with humans to counter your point about lions being familar with humans more so than tigers, turned against human beings?
My take is a couple of things, Ustaad has been captured and medicated a few tims so my I thinking is this:
A male tiger, especially a big prime male like Ustaad is prideful. For him to be "captured" almost means submission to him, and I think that is unexceptable for him. He has now turned to showing us, his captors who's boss. He has no reason to do this, he is healthy, strong and still a prime territory holding male. He has killed 4+ people to date I believe and he really doesn't show a trend as to why. This is why I believe him and Fetah share this trait, they are looking for revenge. We humans like to think of Pride or Revenge as human traits, but I have seen it exemplified in many animals. We humans just put a word to it, they just do it because its their nature, just like ours. And just like us, not all feel the need to go to such great lengths, but some do and some don't.
This is purely my opinion on this, the link and story above are listed.
RE: MAN-EATERS - peter - 04-05-2015
I don't think the Ranthambore males are man-eaters, PC. They're man-killers. There's a difference between killing to eat and killing to communicate. My guess is the factors discussed contributed to what we see today. Ranthambore tigers are done with darts, collars, tourists and all the rest of it. They must have told the staff, but apparently didn't get the message across.
My advice would be to close the reserve. When respect has been restored, they could give a permit to a film crew or a few biologists every now and then, but that's about it. Tourism is out. The sheer number of people will result in problems sooner or later. Tigers will respond. As we want to prevent dead tourists and a bad reputation, the only option is to close the door.
The alternative is good documentaries. A soap about a tiger familiy, if you will. Every day. Not expensive and way more interesting. I also wouldn't mind reading some new good books.
One of the big disadvantages of today is the unchecked rise of new media. There's selfies all over the place and they're getting more morbid every day. One day, selfies near a crash site or a massacre will be considered more or less normal. People tweet like bloody monkeys all day every day and those who joined a virtual community spend a lot of time chatting like them.
The main result, apart from countless arguments about zilch, is a total loss of meaning. Another result is authorities decided to refrain from teaching children how to write. Not talking about Somalia, but Finland. Just imagine, authorities deciding that writing no longer has any real meaning.
In some decades, books will be a thing of the past because most of us don't know how to write anymore. One of the pillars of civilisation, when it still was close to a civilisation, sacrificed just in order to follow and serve the herd. I see a storm with terrible consequences gathering.
RE: MAN-EATERS - Amnon242 - 04-05-2015
(04-05-2015, 07:07 AM)'peter' Wrote: I see a storm with terrible consequences gathering.
Yes.
...and I go further. What I see in the media today is pure propaganda. Someone wants to tell us that war is inevitable.
Sorry for being offtopic.
RE: MAN-EATERS - peter - 04-05-2015
MAN-EATING TIGERS ON SAUGUR ISLAND IN THE 18th CENTURY
This letter, written in 1920 by Brig.-Gen. R.G. Burton, was in the JBNHS (Vol. 27). I read it a long time ago, but it stayed with me. There are two reasons. One is the attitude of the tigers involved and two is the large size of one of them. This is of some importance, as it shows at least some Sunderban tigers were larger than they are today.
a - December 1792
The man who wrote the letter Burton referred to was able to get to a good description of the incident. The tiger was described as " ... immense ... ", with a head " ... as large as an ox's ... " and he rushed into the jungle with poor Monro with " ... as much ease as I could lift a kitten ... ".
Also notice the last sentence on the tigress who made her appearence, " ... almost raging mad ... ", who remained on the sand as long as long as " ... the distance would allow me to see her ... ".
A typical man-eater or something else?
Tigers mate all year round, but there is a peak in winter, even in the south. The incident happened in December and immediately after they had shot the tiger and started rowing, a tigress, apparently aware of what had happened, made her appearance. My guess is the tigers had been courting near the beach. When they saw the boat coming in the morning, they had left the sand.
After hours of disturbance and a lot of shooting (the men hunted deer for most of the day), the male tiger decided to attack and he did so in a very intimidating way, ignoring the blazing fire, 4 europeans and 8-10 natives. The deafening roar, the horror of the attack and the other details, in my opinion, point towards intimidation foremost. It was more of a statement, I think.
I read about similar accounts more than once and most wroters thought male tigers are much more aggressive when they are courting. When humans are killed and taken, however, they also are often eaten. In some cases, it was the start of a career. Kenneth Anderson described one case.
A typical man-eater would have struck without sound as soon as possible and retreated right away. But I also admit I've read more accounts of male tigers attacking a group of men with vigour and retreating quickly with their victim. The male could have had experience, that is, especially because it is known that Saugur Island was visited by merchant ships quite often in those days.
b - October 1787
A small vessel needing more time than expected to reach her destination ran out of food and water. A group of 6 Europeans rowed to Saugur Island and decided to stay the night. They camped in the ruins of an old pagoda, with 2 men keeping watch. In spite of the watch and the fire, one of the two was carried off by a tiger. It happened in a flash. Next morning, at some distance, they found his partly eaten body, " ... shockingly mangled ... ".
This incident points towards an experienced man-eater, probably a male. I remember a documentary about a man-eater in the Sunderbans. A group of men who had just lost one of their number to a tiger was followed when they tried to find his remains. They said the tiger has come out of nowhere and attacked him with such force, that both hit a tree. The tiger, anticipating the collision, used the tree to push himself in the direction he had elected before the attack and disappeared with the man in his jaws.
Some incidents witnessed in Indonesia were very similar. Hoogerwerf recorded one in Udjong Kulon in eastern Java (one man was taken from a group before the others realized what was happening), but the one I remember most is the incident described in a book written by a well-known Dutch hunter in Sumatra.
He was on his way in a modern car just before the Second World War. His destination was a place where a tiger terrorized a village. In a remote place, still many miles from the village, the car broke down. While the driver was fixing the problem and the hunter was watching him from a few yards distance, a tiger came out of the jungle. He rushed towards the driver, took him in his jaws and jumped into the forest at the other side of the road. It happened in seconds and the hunter was completely surprised. Next day, he returned with dogs, local hunters and plenty of guns. They searched the forest until dusk, but never found a trace of the driver.
*This image is copyright of its original author
RE: MAN-EATERS - peter - 04-05-2015
(04-05-2015, 07:32 AM)'Amnon242' Wrote:(04-05-2015, 07:07 AM)'peter' Wrote: I see a storm with terrible consequences gathering.
Yes.
...and I go further. What I see in the media today is pure propaganda. Someone wants to tell us that war is inevitable.
Sorry for being offtopic.
I agree about propaganda, but this, unfortunately, is out of the scope of the forum. Unless members want to add a section on human folly. We could, however, continue on decisions in the section on conservation and politics. Decisions affecting tigers, I mean.
RE: MAN-EATERS - Roflcopters - 04-05-2015
Pockets, you have a good point but you have to realize that T24, T42 and Namdev from Tadoba are some of the most aggressive tigers known to mankind. give them a chance to kill you and they will make sure they kill you.
Personally, this is how i see my tigers. I think we have a few groups amongst the tigers.
Group 1 (Friendly or the Good) = best type of tigers for photographers, people love their friendliness, easy going and laid back. Raja, Wagdoh, Madla, Bokha, Munna etc etc
Group 2 (Aggressive or the Bad= we have tigers like Shivaji, Charger from bandhavgarh, Charger from Pench, T42, T24 and Namdev - these are the tigers that are not used to human presence and act very aggressive towards them. threaten their space and that will be your last.
Group 3 (murderers, some are by chance and some are just natural man-eaters and these tigers clearly are not natural man-eaters so indeed, as Peter said. "man-killers" would be the right term to describe their work.
Just my two cents..
RE: MAN-EATERS - Pckts - 04-05-2015
I think we are splitting hairs if we try to classify a "man killer" over a "man eater" But I see what you guys are getting at.
Remains of body parts are found with T24s victim and same with T42 I believe, so there was some consumption. But I do know what you guys are saying, they don't do it out of a food source its more out of a problem with us in general. So I see where you could categorize them separately.
A side note, I truly don't believe that shutting down any reserve is Not correct. Ranth has 1000s of tourists monthly, it is the most crowded park in India. Yet these incidents are extremely few and far between. But I don't think it matters, thats kind of the point isn't it?
You want a little of the "Danger" factor, don't you? From a tourist perspective that is almost like a adrenaline junky, thats what make these creatures so fascinating. Not just their power and beautty, but the fact that every time you are near them, there is always a slight chance that your in danger. These incidents just remind people from time to time. I think it comes with the territory, there should be no action taken when this occurs. Which seems to be the route Ranth is going, since these guys have attacked numerous gaurds but they know these cats belong here, we don't. Its their nature to be aggressive.
RE: MAN-EATERS - peter - 04-06-2015
KOREA
Below is a link to an article on Korean man-eaters. It was posted some years ago. If you're interested, I would advice to print it. You never know. The article is interesting and well written:
http://english.ohmynews.com/articleview/article_view.asp?no=359115&rel_no=1
RE: MAN-EATERS - GuateGojira - 04-07-2015
Check this words, from the book "The Wild Cat Book" from Fiona and Mel Sunquist (2014), about why jaguars are not man-eaters:
*This image is copyright of its original author
What do you think? It is interesting that jaguars avoid humans as much as they can, but sadly, the cattle is such an easy prey that sometimes they risk they lives for a good meal. It is also interesting that a little group of brave dogs is more than enough to keep jaguars away.