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Tiger Predation - Printable Version

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RE: Tiger Predation - Pckts - 06-28-2014

(06-28-2014, 12:44 AM)'Pantherinae' Wrote:  

First it's not about lion vs tiger. Yeah i love lions, but I like tigers aswell working close up with these cats are wonderfull and I could never pic a favorite, please stop saying that :-) and i have said tigers are stronger. And thats a fact, do not deny anything I know.

let me tell you something indian rhinos do bite eachother very much, when males are full with testosterone they will bite other males and females not ready to mate while chasing them. That I have seen on a video clip one time. 

The thing is I'm a frendly guy do not like to debate with anger or anything, but the thing is, and please try to understand: a lion pride is a massive force and a black rhino can chase the whole pride, and do not even look nervous around lions. A indian rhino is almost twice the size of a black rhino and are maybe even more aggressive. And do have an even thicker skinn, thats why it's so har to belive. Not by taking anything away from the tiger, even tho I don't think they can kill a rhino they are still an impressive carnivore and i admire their strength. 

Also I have seen pictures of tigers and rhinos together in Kaziranga and the rhino dosen't even look at the tiger, you would never see that in a barazinga or sambar, they would not have taken their eyes of the tiger. There is also a clip of a young male tiger from Kaziranga trying to attack a water buffalo, but the buffalo is not easily scared and seems to have no problem against a young male, so for me it's very hard to see an adult tiger jump on an animal twice the size.

You may have an point on the stamina. I know lions do have bigger lungs and a bigger hart, than tigers on avarage, but you never know until youre sure.

 

Rhinos do bite eachother. But this rhino mother was followed with her cub and no marks by a tiger, both on film. The same rhino mother who had a baby was seen the next day with no baby and wounds. Obviously not a Rhino.
That is the first one.


Then this
"Also I have seen pictures of tigers and rhinos together in Kaziranga and the rhino dosen't even look at the tiger"
I have seen Rhino, buffalo, elephant etc.. not even concern them selves with a lion or lion pride, walk past them, share watering holes etc... So does that mean lions don't hunt them according to your reasoning?


Once again lions do not have bigger lungs or heart, the only measurements are from a zoo and circus tiger compared to a wild and zoo lion.
That is not even close to conclusive for either side.

Heres the thing, making statements like these with out any proof is far more unbelievable than a tiger with actual eyewitness accounts and proof backing them hunting and killing elephant and rhino. I still have not seen you present a single account where you question the validity of the rhino or elephant, as well as not responding to the account of the Rhino being killed and it not being the first adult rhino killed by a tiger.
 


RE: Tiger Predation - Pantherinae - 06-28-2014

Well the difference with the water Hole is that it's in the dry season, and then animals are desperate, lions du very very rarely kill elephants, and thats only some places in Africa, where lions hunt's elephants usually Botswana and Zimbabwe and those elephants are coming in from kalahari dessert and are desperate for water and still they are very nervous when lions are around. Rhinos aswell, lions not even lion prides are usually any threat to any rhino except calves. And if not a large waterhole i have never seen buffalos and lions share it, maybe if the lions where relaxing usually they run if a lion pride would apper. And still buffalos are living in big heards, so safety in numbers. 

With the rhino and the tiger it's in green marsh land with alot of water. And the rhino is solitary and dosen't even give the tiger a look, a prey item wold at least have keept an eye on the tiger. 

But hey pckts. I'm aware this debate is not going anywhere, and I do not think any of us will change our minds. We can argue until our faces are blue, but that dosen't help. If there comes a video of a tiger killing a rhino, you win easily, and I was wrong. 

All the best [img]images/smilies/smile.gif[/img]


RE: Tiger Predation - Apollo - 06-28-2014

Female rhino killed by tiger in Kaziranga

Golaghat (Assam), Jan 2 (PTI) A female rhino was mauled to death by a tiger at Kaziranga National Park in Assam today, forest officials said.


The ageing rhino was attacked by the big cat near the Bagori range of the world heritage site, they said.


Though Five veterinary doctors rushed to treat the herbivore, but it succumbed to injuries because of low resistance power due to its old age, the officials said.



http://bigcatrescue.org/female-rhino-killed-by-tiger-in-kaziranga/


RE: Tiger Predation - Pckts - 06-28-2014

Heres the thing, so when I post this
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2013/09/130911161012.htm

Obviously any animal is going to be nervous around a apex predator. Hence the Elephants fearing a Tiger growl.

Lets not forget the Animal age, size, sex, personality etc.. will all effect how that animal reacts. Whether its night or day, dry season or monsoon, etc....
So to try an use one example as proof is not reasonable. Especially when I can use multiple example to counter it.
So if Video is the only thing you will accept, than until the Raja video, the only thing tigers have hunted was deer and boar? Right?
[img]images/smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]


RE: Tiger Predation - Apollo - 06-28-2014

Elephant and Tiger interaction in Nagarhole NP







RE: Tiger Predation - Pantherinae - 06-28-2014

No gaur i have always belived because if a lion can kill a buffalo, a tiger can kill a gaur. But rhinos are in an whole other level. [img]images/smilies/smile.gif[/img]


Also rember they use elephats on indian safari's to because usually elephants Will keep you safe from tigers. And tigers and elephants who carries people do not seem do care about eachother at all, and they use alot of elephants in Kaziranga. Also the thing is if rhino actually was on the tigers menu, they would have been evolved differently.
A rhino is slow compared to tigers, they do have an horrible eye sight (almost blind) and aswell as they are solitary and have only themself to relay on to spot predators.. So rhinos have IMO been evolved to be big and slow and have none natrural enimies, because if not why would tigers eat anything else, the tigers would have driven rhinos to extintcion...

And one more thing a rhino mom rasises up her calf alone, if she can't defend her self against a tiger how could she defend her calf?? A rhino calf would have been the most easy prey of them all. As the mom is alone, defenceless, slow and almost blind. Rhinos are big extremly strong animals.

And just by curiosity do you think a tiger alone can take down an animal almost twice the size of and animal not even 6 lions can kill?


RE: Tiger Predation - Pantherinae - 06-28-2014


*This image is copyright of its original author

This to me dosen't look like predator and prey IMO. Male tiger and what seems to be a female rhino (atleast the size and the "flat" face makes it look like a female), but can aswell be a young bull!
Massive tiger Btw! Have someone idea of who this male is?


RE: Tiger Predation - Jubatus - 06-28-2014

(06-28-2014, 02:15 AM)'Pckts' Wrote:
(06-28-2014, 12:44 AM)'Pantherinae' Wrote:  

First it's not about lion vs tiger. Yeah i love lions, but I like tigers aswell working close up with these cats are wonderfull and I could never pic a favorite, please stop saying that :-) and i have said tigers are stronger. And thats a fact, do not deny anything I know.

let me tell you something indian rhinos do bite eachother very much, when males are full with testosterone they will bite other males and females not ready to mate while chasing them. That I have seen on a video clip one time. 

The thing is I'm a frendly guy do not like to debate with anger or anything, but the thing is, and please try to understand: a lion pride is a massive force and a black rhino can chase the whole pride, and do not even look nervous around lions. A indian rhino is almost twice the size of a black rhino and are maybe even more aggressive. And do have an even thicker skinn, thats why it's so har to belive. Not by taking anything away from the tiger, even tho I don't think they can kill a rhino they are still an impressive carnivore and i admire their strength. 

Also I have seen pictures of tigers and rhinos together in Kaziranga and the rhino dosen't even look at the tiger, you would never see that in a barazinga or sambar, they would not have taken their eyes of the tiger. There is also a clip of a young male tiger from Kaziranga trying to attack a water buffalo, but the buffalo is not easily scared and seems to have no problem against a young male, so for me it's very hard to see an adult tiger jump on an animal twice the size.

You may have an point on the stamina. I know lions do have bigger lungs and a bigger hart, than tigers on avarage, but you never know until youre sure.


 

Rhinos do bite eachother. But this rhino mother was followed with her cub and no marks by a tiger, both on film. The same rhino mother who had a baby was seen the next day with no baby and wounds. Obviously not a Rhino.
That is the first one.


Then this
"Also I have seen pictures of tigers and rhinos together in Kaziranga and the rhino dosen't even look at the tiger"
I have seen Rhino, buffalo, elephant etc.. not even concern them selves with a lion or lion pride, walk past them, share watering holes etc... So does that mean lions don't hunt them according to your reasoning?


Once again lions do not have bigger lungs or heart, the only measurements are from a zoo and circus tiger compared to a wild and zoo lion.
That is not even close to conclusive for either side.

Heres the thing, making statements like these with out any proof is far more unbelievable than a tiger with actual eyewitness accounts and proof backing them hunting and killing elephant and rhino. I still have not seen you present a single account where you question the validity of the rhino or elephant, as well as not responding to the account of the Rhino being killed and it not being the first adult rhino killed by a tiger.
 

 
#Pckts 
But the studies still show that tigers have significally smaller lungs and harts than lions, zoo compared to zoo speciments, the lion is still superior by far! It doesen`t make any difference if their from the wild or from a zoo/circus when both animals are from the same place, the results show who has the biggest hart anyway! Also, lions are more heavily built than other carnivores in africa. They have remarkable acceleration and are able to wrestle down powerful prey such as zebra and buffalo. With all that muscle, they generate an enormous amount of metabolic heat—even just walking across an open plain can leave them panting. Thus lions have a greater need to stay cool. And tigers are even more heavily packed with muscles, and they seem to have a smaller hart, so they will even create more metabolic heat! Thus more muscles you have, and thus smaller hart you have, thus faster will the metabolic heat rise! And most studies that says lions are lazy is done in east Africa, where there is little shady areas, and extremely hot! And lions have to relax most of the day there to not overheat, in South where there is more vegetation they often seem to be more active! tigers often lives in forrest habitat where there is cooler, so then they get the opertunity to be more active!

Here are the results:

Lion Weight: 190 kg/ Hart: 1175 g (from zoo)

Tiger Weight: 209 kg/ Hart: 698 g (from zoo/circus)

Lion from Philadelphia zoo: 1614 grams

wild Lion: 860

Hartweight from different Tigers; 770, 570, 970, 1090 g, these were 3 females and one male.

one more zoo tiger: 970g 

Unfortunatly I  don`t know the sex of all the tigers, the first two is obviously males. you see that wild animals harts dosen`t have any spesific difference in size!

There is only one tiger that got his lungs measured, and two lions

Tiger weight: 209 kgs. Lung-weight: 1.888  grams

Lion 1, Weight: 195.4 Lung-weight: 2000 grams

Lion 2, Weight: 186.4 2,600 grams

Again the lion exceeds the tiger!

Of course there is now way of saying who has the best stamina with so little research done on their lungs and hart, but I`m studying to become wildlife veterenarian, and from what i can tell it seems that lions acctually do have better stamina! 



 


RE: Tiger Predation - GuateGojira - 06-28-2014

I think that you are missing the point here. This is tiger predation, not Lion vs Tiger.

I agree that at first sight, it seems impossible for a tiger to kill a full grow rhino, but there are too many accounts to just ignore the facts. Besides, there is no need that the tiger would killed the rhino in one round, the tiger could hurt him and began to eat it even before the big guy die.

And about the stamina, there is simple NO EVIDENCE to say that lions have better stamina. The comparison of organs "per se" is unreliable, specially because you are comparing only ONE CAPTIVE tiger with several CAPTIVE lions. We simply don't know the health stage of that 209 kg tiger or that of the other lions. Besides, I have found only 7 tigers with its organs published in literature, while there is the double of that of lions. Captive animals developed completely different forms and even sometimes internal morphology, and to compare two, three or more captive lions, with a single captive tiger, without knowing the state of those particular animals, is simple unreliable and even irresponsible.

You quote a wild lion with a heart of 860 g, I show you a wild male tiger with a heart of 1090 g. The lungs of the lions that you quote are from captive specimens, however I present you a a small wild male China tiger of 161 kg with a lung weight of 2185 g. You see, your conclusions are not accurate and show you that there are no absolute truth here.

Now, focus on the topic.
 


RE: Tiger Predation - sanjay - 06-28-2014

Yes, focus on topic, Pckts and Pantherine are very good at there knowledge. So better help to post data related to topic. Lion vs Tiger is endless debate, that has ruined many other forum in past. This forum is only for sharing good data and knowledge.

Every person has it own opinion base on his experience and other must respect it, But don't impose your opinion on others.

Lions and tigers are master of there own domain, even nature didn't want them to share the same spaces, so end this debate. This is humble request.

Also, A mature guy will never involve himself in this type of debate.


RE: Tiger Predation - GuateGojira - 06-28-2014

I agree 100% with Sanjay. The "Lion vs Tiger" debate is useless and it will end in useless fights and a lot of insults, that is what ruined AVA.

I will say this only one more time, focus on the topic.
 


RE: Tiger Predation - Pantherinae - 06-28-2014

'sanjay dateline='' Wrote: Yes, focus on topic, Pckts and Pantherine are very good at there knowledge. So better help to post data related to topic. Lion vs Tiger is endless debate, that has ruined many other forum in past. This forum is only for sharing good data and knowledge.

Every person has it own opinion base on his experience and other must respect it, But don't impose your opinion on others.

Lions and tigers are master of there own domain, even nature didn't want them to share the same spaces, so end this debate. This is humble request.

Also, A mature guy will never involve himself in this type of debate.

 



Thank you, to be honest, I never tried to make a lion vs tiger debate, i was just saying tigers can't kills rhino's, thats the only thing and I did compare them to wat lions!  
But I won't discuss this anymore.

I'm neither cares about who wins the fight! Simply a 50/50


RE: Tiger Predation - Vinod - 06-28-2014

I think Animal vs. Animal debate should be allowed here otherwise this forum will become boring 

you could dedicate a section related to A vs A, it'll help bringing in new members. All you'd need now is stricter moderation no AVA debates in any of the other subforums & that's it,  this forum will definitely benefit from it

cmon don't shy away from a lil challenge & contradiction, THINK [img]images/smilies/cool.gif[/img]



 


RE: Tiger Predation - Vinod - 06-28-2014

(06-28-2014, 12:23 PM)'sanjay' Wrote: Yes, focus on topic, Pckts and Pantherine are very good at there knowledge. So better help to post data related to topic. Lion vs Tiger is endless debate, that has ruined many other forum in past. This forum is only for sharing good data and knowledge.

Every person has it own opinion base on his experience and other must respect it, But don't impose your opinion on others.

Lions and tigers are master of there own domain, even nature didn't want them to share the same spaces, so end this debate. This is humble request.

Also, A mature guy will never involve himself in this type of debate.


 


If I have a counter view like a tiger cannot kill a rhino or a lion can kill a tiger, I will try to express my views & I should be allowed to do that, I will provide evidence & arguments to prove my point, what's wrong with that?

You simply won't be able to keep a THIS vs THAT debate away from here for long, simply put you cannot expect ppl to agree with you on everything ppl WILL COUNTER your views & the moment anyone  does this it'll turn into a THIS vs THAT debate, how can you help?

Forums are meant for debates & discussions, where there are views there'll be counter views. [img]images/smilies/dodgy.gif[/img]
 

 


RE: Tiger Predation - sanjay - 06-28-2014

(06-28-2014, 04:20 PM)Vinod Wrote: If I have a counter view like a tiger cannot kill a rhino or a lion can kill a tiger, I will try to express my views & I should be allowed to do that, I will provide evidence & arguments to prove my point, what's wrong with that?

You simply won't be able to keep a THIS vs THAT debate away from here for long, simply put you cannot expect ppl to agree with you on everything ppl WILL COUNTER your views & the moment anyone  does this it'll turn into a THIS vs THAT debate, how can you help?

Forums are meant for debates & discussions, where there are views there'll be counter views. [img]images/smilies/dodgy.gif[/img]
 

I agree what you said, forum are made for discussion and everybody should express his view. But this forum so far is very good without any serious debate. People are posting information.

So solution is, Making another section in this forum where you are free to express your view and debate with people. But in manners.
Don't ruin the information and knowledge section of this forum. If you start debating, a good section like for example tiger predation section get full of garbage debate instead of valuable data and the work done by others like Apollo (Prathap) in this section get ruined.
 For example last few post of this thread is only derailing the thread from its original objective, in this case tiger hunting in wild data.

A little debate is allowed, but not for heated debate that derail thread objective.

If you visit AVA you will find many of the thread turned into heated debate and derailing them from it original objective, what happened with AVA is now well known, probably this forum originate due to this reason.

But this doesn't mean debate should be avoid, a separate section for this and a healthy and respectful manner must be followed. Respect should be on both side despite of disagreement on some views, a mature discussion.

Hope this make clear.