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+----- Thread: Talamati/Msutlu Pride (/topic-talamati-msutlu-pride)
Talamati/Msutlu Pride - BA0701 - 04-23-2024
As I began my researching of the Talamati/Msutlu Pride, one of the first articles I came across was a Londolozi Blog post, written by Robert Ball, in 2022. TAs Criollo2mil pointed out, the blog post contains a lot of the information previously covered by @Potato in post #233 of the Lion Tales thread, located here:
https://wildfact.com/forum/topic-lion-tales?pid=181563#pid181563
Our good friend, @criollo2mil has also stated that he would assist us in bringing us even further up to date, into the Msutlu era as well.
The Londolozi Blog post, by Robert Ball, can be veiwed here:
https://blog.londolozi.com/2022/07/25/the-talamati-pride-who-are-they/
Borrowed directly from the Londolozi post:
The Talamati Pride: Who Are They?
What has been your favourite surprise of the year so far?
2022 has been somewhat of a whirlwind and the first half of the year has flown by. Perhaps your best surprise may have been your children unexpectedly joining you for your birthday, or perhaps it was finding a crumpled up $20 note in the pocket of an old pair of jeans that you forgot about, or perhaps it was the ability to travel again, and being able to travel to Londolozi? For the ranging team at Londolozi, there has been one surprise that ranks above most – the arrival of a new pride of lions.
*This image is copyright of its original author
Jess Shillaw
Two of the sub-adult lionesses from the Talamati pride chase each other on the banks of the Sand River. These lions have provided some seriously great viewing of late!
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It was in mid-April that the Talamati Pride had officially arrived on Londolozi for the first time that we can recall. They had been seen once or twice in the far north-western reaches of the reserve before this, but on this occasion, they seemed to have arrived with the intention of sticking around. They had killed a kudu just to the North of the Sand River and then proceeded to cross south through the river the next morning, progressing further and further into Londolozi – land they had not yet traversed.
To say that they, “announced their arrival” is somewhat inaccurate, they rather attempted to stay under the radar and not cause a huge stir – most likely because they knew they were in a foreign area in which there may be an existing pride or coalition of males.
*This image is copyright of its original author
Robert Ball
Two of the young male lions in the pride following the path that their mother and sisters had already taken. These males are already very large, they will have a tough few years ahead of them before potentially attempting to claim a territory of their own as a coalition of brothers.
Canon EOS R6
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They have continued to exhibit this behaviour, moving large distances during the night and into the late hours of the morning, attempting to remain
undetected by other lions that might be in the vicinity. One thing for certain is that they have provided some quality game viewing, and so we hope that they decide to stay!
*This image is copyright of its original author
Tayla Brown
Late one evening, the pride was found attempting to hunt a family of four porcupines on the airstrip! Something you certainly don’t see every day or night.
Canon EOS 7D
1004.51/80s3200
And so the question remains – who is the Talamati Pride and where do they come from? I shall try to keep this as brief and simple as possible, as we know – lion dynamics can get complicated! To our knowledge, this is what we have managed to unveil about these spectacular lions.
*This image is copyright of its original author
Robert Ball
The Talamati Pride broke away from the Nkuhuma Pride in 2007 when the Mapogo Males took over from the Manyelethi Males. At this point, they were known as the Nkuhuma Breakaway Pride. They established territory north of their natal pride where they were then taken over by the ‘Old Nkuhuma Males’. After a bout of mating, the females gave birth to two females, one of which is blind in one eye (known as silver-eye) who are now the oldest lionesses in the Talamati Pride. One year later in 2008, the pride dispersed to the Kruger National Park with the ‘Old Nkuhuma Males’.
*This image is copyright of its original author
The infamous Mapogo coalition. These males ruled most of the Sabi Sands during their tenure
It was in 2011 that they were formerly named the ‘Talamati pide’ after the Talamati Bushveld Camp, with Talamati meaning ‘lots of water’ in Xitsonga. The pride returned to the Sabi Sands later that year. Soon after their return, they were taken over by the Matimba Males and by this stage ‘Silver-eye’ and her sister were reaching sexual maturity and would then mate with the Matimba Males and have cubs of their own. Of all the cubs sired by the Matimba males, only one female survived and is no longer with the pride. When the Matimba Males were chased out by the Birmingham Males in 2015, the Selati Males moved in and claimed the Talamati Pride of which there were five females now. Two old females died during the Selati reign, leaving the pride with three lionesses in it.
*This image is copyright of its original author
Dan Hirschowitz
The last surviving member of the Birmingham coalition.
Canon EOS 90D
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In early 2019 the male lion dynamics were stirred up with the Nothern Avoca Male Coalition of three brothers starting to make a name for themselves. They forced the Birmingham Males Southwards and claimed the Nkuhuma pride as their own and removed the Selati males as the dominant force over the Talamati pride, claiming these lionesses as their own too.
*This image is copyright of its original author
Robert Ball
One of the two older lionesses in the pride, around 15 years old, has gone blind in one eye and has a noticeable blueish/grey colour. We aren’t sure exactly how this happened and how severely it has impacted her eyesight. We assume it has impaired her hunting ability to a certain extent.
Canon EOS R6
2002.81/2500s250
In late 2019/early 2020, the Nkuhuma Pride shifted south, and so did the Talamati pride. It was also at this time that the Dark-maned Avoca Male separated himself from his two brothers and associated himself strictly with the Talamati lionesses – of which there were 5 at the time, three older females and two younger females.
*This image is copyright of its original author
Robert Ball
The Dark Maned Avoca Male gazes towards the Talamati Pride ahead of him. If you focus carefully on his front right foot you will notice that it is slightly injured with a bump in what we could classify as the wrist joint, and we believe it has been this way for a couple of years already.
Canon EOS R6
2002.81/1000s250
In 2021, the Imbali male (a male lion whose territory lies slightly further east) sensed that the Dark-maned Northern Avoca Male was alone and attempted to claim the Talamati as his own. The hostile takeover was halted when three Talamati lionesses (the sole Matimba daughter and the two Selati Daughters) left their pride and mated with the Imbali male as they had now come back into estrus.
These weren’t the only losses for the pride around this time… It was in early 2019 that The Northern Avoca brothers sired nine cubs, six female and three male. Unfortunately, one male and one female sub-adult from these litters died in 2021, and another female sub-adult was killed by the Plains Camp Males in early 2022, leaving four sub-adult females and two sub-adult males.
*This image is copyright of its original author
Sean Zeederberg
A young male already looking formidable.
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This brings us to the pride as we see it today: Two adult lionesses and six sub-adults. Naturally, the sub-adults are roaming around and will at times separate themselves away from their natal pride. For that reason, we usually see the core, consisting of the older two lionesses and two sub-adult males and two sub-adult females.
*This image is copyright of its original author
Sean Zeederberg
As the rest of the Talamati Pride drinks from the Sand River, the oldest female takes the bold steps in leading the way through the water.
NIKON Z 6
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*This image is copyright of its original author
Sean Zeederberg
Two younger females are the first to follow.
NIKON Z 6
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And so the next question springs to mind – what next for the pride? I have to believe that in the coming 6 months to a year the pride will be dominated by a new coalition of males. Whether it’s the Plain’s camp males to the West, the Imbali male to the North or Ndzhenga males to the south east – who knows. The Dark-maned Avoca is somewhat struggling to keep up with the vast distances that the pride covers and is no longer advertising his territory vocally or via olfactory functions. It’s a matter of time before the sub-adult females come into estrus themselves and other males find out about it.
*This image is copyright of its original author
Sean Zeederberg
The young females are nearing the point where they will come into estrus and seek out the dominant males to mate with, the question which males will it be?
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One thing is for sure, we will keep you updated with the pride’s progress should they decide to stay on Londolozi permanently!
RE: Talamati/Msutlu Pride - Mapokser - 04-23-2024
Throwback to 2 of the most beloved lions in Sabi Sands, Dark Mane Avoca and Silver-Eye Talamati:
*This image is copyright of its original author
RE: Talamati/Msutlu Pride - T I N O - 04-23-2024
Hamiltons Tented Camp - August 2013
One of the Talamati pride female Lions was sighted near Hamiltons during a recent Afternoon Safari!
*This image is copyright of its original author
RE: Talamati/Msutlu Pride - T I N O - 04-23-2024
This Talamati Pride Female was spotted on a recent afternoon Safari near Hoyo-Hoyo Safari Lodge.
This is the sister of the silver-eyed Talamati lioness
September 2013
*This image is copyright of its original author
RE: Talamati/Msutlu Pride - T I N O - 04-23-2024
Talamati pride and cubs (November 2015)
This Talamati Pride Female was spotted on a recent afternoon Safari near Hoyo-Hoyo Safari Lodge.
Photo credit: Christof Schoeman
*This image is copyright of its original author
RE: Talamati/Msutlu Pride - Ponce - 04-24-2024
A bit of news. Tiyelele and the Talamati subs hunting a young buffalo in Singita.
[color=var(--COEmY)]
*This image is copyright of its original author
Sorry if it didn't have to be put here.
RE: Talamati/Msutlu Pride - BA0701 - 04-24-2024
(04-24-2024, 04:02 AM)Ponce Wrote: A bit of news. Tiyelele and the Talamati subs hunting a young buffalo in Singita.
[color=var(--COEmY)]
*This image is copyright of its original author
[/color]
Sorry if it didn't have to be put here.
You put it in the correct thread, my friend, thank you!
RE: Talamati/Msutlu Pride - Maghreb - 04-24-2024
(04-24-2024, 04:02 AM)Ponce Not the safest of places for them. Wrote: A bit of news. Tiyelele and the Talamati subs hunting a young buffalo in Singita.
[color=var(--COEmY)]
*This image is copyright of its original author
[/color]
Sorry if it didn't have to be put here.
RE: Talamati/Msutlu Pride - Tr1x24 - 04-24-2024
This post is dedicated to all Talamati young males, who reached adulthood, we had 3 generations of them.
1. 3 Talamati males born in 2012, sired by Matimbas
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
They become nomads around late 2015 (prob under pressure of Birminghams) and moved into southern Sabi Sands where they hanged thru 2016.
3 Mhangeni young males also hanged there, but local territorial males (of which ones where Charlestons) where not happy with all these young males hanging around, so they chased and hunt them often, killing 1 of Mhangenis and often spliting these males. In 1 of those chases, 1 of Talamati males (dark maned male) got separated from his brothers and later seen with 2 remaining Mhangeni brothers in Kruger thru 2017 and 2018 (mostly west of Skukuza towards Phabeni Gate).
2 remaining Talamati males also moved in Kruger, but in opposite direction, southeast of Skukuza, they where seen on s21 in mid 2017 mating with females and prob trying to establish themselves. But that didnt last, as 1 of 2 brothers went missing shortly after.
Last photo of missing male on s21 in mid 2017:
*This image is copyright of its original author
His brother, was in 2018 seen around Jock area, with new young partner (Dreadlocks Delaporte). In 2019 they moved north towards Skukuza, where in late 2019 they made Delaporte coalition with last Tsalala male and Hildas Rock male. They become territorial there until mid 2020 when Mpondos returned and Tsalala and HRM went missing. He and Dreadlocks become nomads again. Talamati at that time had major limping and health problems, he was last seen around mid 2021.
Delaporte Talamati in late 2019:
*This image is copyright of its original author
As for separated brother, he for some reason left Mhangeni brothers towards late 2018, and was seen in early 2019 back close to his once natal area in southern Manyeleti, never to be seen again.
Last photo of dark maned Talamati in early 2019:
*This image is copyright of its original author
2. 2 Talamati brothers born in late 2015, sired by Selati males
*This image is copyright of its original author
These 2 went nomadic towards late 2018, under pressure of 3 N.Avoca males. They went south, first seen hanging with Nkuhuma pride, but they moved further south and in 2019 they joined crippled Southern Pride, which had only 1 adult female, 2 sub males and 1 sub female. Towards late 2019, and with arrival of Nwaswitshaka young males, they started to move in Kruger. 1 of SP went missing and mother and daugher returned to Sabi Sands, leaving 2 Talamati males and 1 SP males (Fourways son) in Kruger where they started their nomadic life.
They where seen hanging west of Skukuza towards Phabeni and Pretoriuskop area, where they where last seen towards mid 2020. SP was last seen alone at Skukuza with injuries around that time, aswell for the last time.
2 Talamati and SP males in early 2020 near Skukuza:
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
3. 2 Talamati (initially 3) born in late 2018, sired by N.Avocas
*This image is copyright of its original author
They become nomads around the beginning of 2022 when S8 oust their father DM Avoca. Thru 2022 they hanged with their sisters and father. After that thru 2023 they went on solo mission, which didnt turn well.
Impressive dark maned male dissapeared in late 2023 in southern Sabi Sand without any clue.
*This image is copyright of its original author
Remaining blondish brother now alone roams thru Sabi Sands, his future is uncertain.
*This image is copyright of its original author
He is the last known Talamati male still alive, chances that his brother is alive are slimmer each day.
There is possibility that 2 Selati Talamatis are still alive somewhere in Kruger, but we cant know that.
Photo credits to all authors.
RE: Talamati/Msutlu Pride - criollo2mil - 04-24-2024
Khanya Talamati still in the company of a few his cousins and Nkuhuma Pride members .
24 April 2024
#ellymzila
Great to see them all still together and the even better - the young male is also with them too and sitting next to Khanya
RE: Talamati/Msutlu Pride - T_Ferguson - 04-24-2024
that is interesting since the Young Male was just with K4 and K6 a couple of days ago. They are all in very close proximity. I have to think Khanya and the K's are aware of each other....
RE: Talamati/Msutlu Pride - BA0701 - 04-24-2024
(04-24-2024, 04:17 PM)Tr1x24 Wrote: This post is dedicated to all Talamati young males, who reached adulthood, we had 3 generations of them.
1. 3 Talamati males born in 2012, sired by Matimbas
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
They become nomads around late 2015 (prob under pressure of Birminghams) and moved into southern Sabi Sands where they hanged thru 2016.
3 Mhangeni young males also hanged there, but local territorial males (of which ones where Charlestons) where not happy with all these young males hanging around, so they chased and hunt them often, killing 1 of Mhangenis and often spliting these males. In 1 of those chases, 1 of Talamati males (dark maned male) got separated from his brothers and later seen with 2 remaining Mhangeni brothers in Kruger thru 2017 and 2018 (mostly west of Skukuza towards Phabeni Gate).
2 remaining Talamati males also moved in Kruger, but in opposite direction, southeast of Skukuza, they where seen on s21 in mid 2017 mating with females and prob trying to establish themselves. But that didnt last, as 1 of 2 brothers went missing shortly after.
Last photo of missing male on s21 in mid 2017:
*This image is copyright of its original author
His brother, was in 2018 seen around Jock area, with new young partner (Dreadlocks Delaporte). In 2019 they moved north towards Skukuza, where in late 2019 they made Delaporte coalition with last Tsalala male and Hildas Rock male. They become territorial there until mid 2020 when Mpondos returned and Tsalala and HRM went missing. He and Dreadlocks become nomads again. Talamati at that time had major limping and health problems, he was last seen around mid 2021.
Delaporte Talamati in late 2019:
*This image is copyright of its original author
As for separated brother, he for some reason left Mhangeni brothers towards late 2018, and was seen in early 2019 back close to his once natal area in southern Manyeleti, never to be seen again.
Last photo of dark maned Talamati in early 2019:
*This image is copyright of its original author
2. 2 Talamati brothers born in late 2015, sired by Selati males
*This image is copyright of its original author
These 2 went nomadic towards late 2018, under pressure of 3 N.Avoca males. They went south, first seen hanging with Nkuhuma pride, but they moved further south and in 2019 they joined crippled Southern Pride, which had only 1 adult female, 2 sub males and 1 sub female. Towards late 2019, and with arrival of Nwaswitshaka young males, they started to move in Kruger. 1 of SP went missing and mother and daugher returned to Sabi Sands, leaving 2 Talamati males and 1 SP males (Fourways son) in Kruger where they started their nomadic life.
They where seen hanging west of Skukuza towards Phabeni and Pretoriuskop area, where they where last seen towards mid 2020. SP was last seen alone at Skukuza with injuries around that time, aswell for the last time.
2 Talamati and SP males in early 2020 near Skukuza:
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
3. 2 Talamati (initially 3) born in late 2018, sired by N.Avocas
*This image is copyright of its original author
They become nomads around the beginning of 2022 when S8 oust their father DM Avoca. Thru 2022 they hanged with their sisters and father. After that thru 2023 they went on solo mission, which didnt turn well.
Impressive dark maned male dissapeared in late 2023 in southern Sabi Sand without any clue.
*This image is copyright of its original author
Remaining blondish brother now alone roams thru Sabi Sands, his future is uncertain.
*This image is copyright of its original author
He is the last known Talamati male still alive, chances that his brother is alive are slimmer each day.
There is possibility that 2 Selati Talamatis are still alive somewhere in Kruger, but we cant know that.
Photo credits to all authors.
Excellent post, my friend, thank you for this!
RE: Talamati/Msutlu Pride - Friarfan619 - 04-24-2024
(04-24-2024, 06:25 PM)criollo2mil Wrote: Khanya Talamati still in the company of a few his cousins and Nkuhuma Pride members .Damn would've never thought that was a 2yo young male
24 April 2024
#ellymzila
Great to see them all still together and the even better - the young male is also with them too and sitting next to Khanya
RE: Talamati/Msutlu Pride - Tr1x24 - 04-24-2024
(04-24-2024, 10:10 PM)Friarfan619 Wrote: Damn would've never thought that was a 2yo young male
Well, Talamati is damn big male and is closer to the camera (photo illusion) so he looks small compared to him, but he is prob around or close to the size of adult females.
RE: Talamati/Msutlu Pride - T I N O - 04-25-2024
February 2016 - The Talamati pride on the move this morning, fully energised by the 12mm of desperately needed rain that fell during the night!
We hope for more!
Manyeleti Game Reserve-Greater Kruger
Photo credit: Christof Schoeman
*This image is copyright of its original author