(11-14-2019, 10:39 AM)BorneanTiger Wrote: ... I was specifically referring to the people responsible for the murky trade, not all Chinese or Vietnamese people. As in, if those who are responsible for this murky trade in wildlife, by paying poachers to kill these animals, get financially affected by Trump's trade war or a recession, then I have no sympathy for them, because they are using their money for the wrong purpose, but of course, if people who are innocent of things like that get affected, then I would sympathise with them.

I remember an earlier post about the "Bach brothers" of Thailand having an economic empire that is based on poaching and the illegal trade in wildlife, and being associated with at least 3 mainstream Lao companies and a Chinese accomplice known as the "Ivory Queen", and that getting them prosecuted was difficult, at partly due to their connection with corrupt officials. As mentioned by the National Geographic, "Wildlife trafficking is believed to be a multibillion-dollar black market of low risk and high rewards. Anti-wildlife trafficking advocates say successful prosecutions rare." It's guys like the Bach brothers that I'm talking about, I would be happy to see people like them have their income or revenue decreased by a recession or other economic woes, so that it's harder for them to pay people to kill wild animals, not good people in those places who don't do such things: https://www.nationalgeographic.com/animals/2019/02/thai-court-dismisses-case-against-suspected-poaching-kingpin/, https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2016/sep/26/bach-brothers-elephant-ivory-asias-animal-trafficking-network, https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2018/jan/20/thai-police-arrest-notorious-wildlife-trafficking-suspect

(11-16-2019, 02:44 AM)lionjaguar Wrote: I don't think you know how the world works. You look like high school or middle school kid spending your time in online. All of those problems are equally going on in Latin America since I lived in Mexico. The same as other Middle East, and other countries. China, Vietnam, and Taiwan are the highest for sure. Do you think Trump's trade war against UAE and other Middle East countries will prevent Muslims to stop becoming terrorists? What is behind of poaching that western media never going to cover: penury. They will still poach animals to feed their family even if China and Vietnam stop buying those products. China and other western countries are trying to use poor countries in Africa and Latin America to use their resource. You do know coltan in the Congo. I can never understand. Many western Europeans tyrannized other continent since the 15h century. The Native Americans and Africans are the most poor people. China is helping many Africa without any treaty compare to western countries. Many African governments want to Chinese side, and western countries are angry about it. Europe killed entire their animals, moreover animals in different continents first. Then they are making rule for Africa to manage animals in Africa? Does it make sense to you? Some of my African friends think Europe and U.S. shouldn't involve any situations in Africa. I am quarter Palestinian, and everything that comes from UK and France are useless and pathetic. They should rather get rid off nukes they have first.

(12-28-2019, 10:01 PM)epaiva Wrote: Female and Male skulls, female measured 32cmx26cm and male 40cmx27cm
Credit to @the.underground.hoard

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

(12-28-2019, 10:01 PM)epaiva Wrote: Female and Male skulls, female measured 32cmx26cm and male 40cmx27cm
Credit to @the.underground.hoard

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

(02-11-2020, 11:03 PM)GuateGojira Wrote: The body size of the lion (Panthera leo) - Final work:

I finally manage to compile all the information about the body size and weight for all the lion populations from which we have actual data. I manage to put it in one big image so here is the compilation of data about the body size and weight from Panthera leo:

*This image is copyright of its original author

This time I manage to put important remarks between the notes and the size of the Barbary lion reflects an "average" specimen, which now shows that it will be about the same size than the other populations of its subspecies. By the way, I know that a Barbary lion in the wild will probably not look like this, but as all the data available came from captive animals, I deciced to use a captive specimen. Other remark on the body measurements, especifically the total length/head-body/shoulder height from Indian lions reported by Jhala et al., (2019) were not included as were taken "along the curves" and I allready had measurements "between pegs" which are more reliable, but chest girths and weights did were included.

Also, for space issues, I just used the most extreme populations from the Southern lions and I did not included the populations of Zimbabwe and Botswana, so here you have the original table again, and can be used like a completement/Appendix to the previous image presented here:

*This image is copyright of its original author

Finally, we must not forget the particular population of lions in Ethiopia, which we only know captive specimens in the Addis Ababa Zoo, and we can't discard its measurements as we can use them like surrogates from the wild population if necesary, like we do with the Malayan and South China tigers, so I add this image too:

*This image is copyright of its original author

Finally about skulls, I have more information about many populations, which include that from J. H. Mazák (2010), Roosevelt & Heller (1914), Hartstone-Rose et al. (2014) and Stevenson Hamilton (1947), however with the last one I was searching in the book (yes, now I have the book! ) and he did not describe the method of measurements and I affraid that probably he measured his lion skulls "between perpendiculars" which was the method used by most hunters in his days and which, compared with measurements with callipers, may slightly increase the length, specially if the mandible is still attached to the skull. That is why I used only skulls measures by Zoologists using callipers.  

I think that, for the moment, these three tables/images summarize my data about the body size of the lion at this moment (January 2020), if someone have a doubt or request specific data from a population, feel free to ask.

Greetings and cheers to all.

(02-12-2020, 02:07 AM)Pantherinae Wrote: How about the 272 kg male from Mount Kenya?

(02-12-2020, 04:43 AM)GuateGojira Wrote:

(02-12-2020, 02:07 AM)Pantherinae Wrote: How about the 272 kg male from Mount Kenya?

Is there, in the secondary notes.

(02-12-2020, 07:20 AM)Pantherinae Wrote: Oh sorry my bad, where have you read it was abnormally bulky?

(02-13-2020, 09:34 AM)Styx38 Wrote: So the West African Lion is the smallest subspecies?

(02-17-2020, 10:15 PM)GuateGojira Wrote:

(02-12-2020, 07:20 AM)Pantherinae Wrote: Oh sorry my bad, where have you read it was abnormally bulky?

The known facts are that we know that the lion was killed for killing cattle and that weighed 272 kg, now we know that all the cats that kill cattle are: 1-light in weight and in bad shape , 2-heavy in weight and in very bulky. Definitelly this lion, like those from southwest Africa (Etosha and Hobatere, for example) are very fat for killing cattle and like Gerald Wood said, those big tigers (and lions) in the past that weighed so much were cattle killers and consequently very bulky. Now, this "bulkiness" is not normal, so that lion was obviously abnormally bulky, proof of that is that the heaviest lions that I manage to found in the area were two males of about 235 kg, one came from Rowland Ward Records fo Big Game (234 kg) and its reliability will be allways open to debate, the other one is the male "Puyol" (235 kg) which according with the people that captured him it had stomach content on him. The next heaviest male is a male of 230 kg in the Aberdares, Kenya (no other information is available for the specimen) and after that all the other weights are less than 205 kg, and this is from a sample of 71 males from the entire area. This means that those big lions were exceptional or that included some stomach content. There is a difference of 37 kg between the 272 kg giant lion and the biggest one of my sample, which certainly makes it exceptional and because that body mass was created for its taste for the ease-prey domestic cattle, that bulkiness was not normal. Interesting is the fact that in Southern Africa the male lions reach bigger figures with weights up to 250 kg "empty" (especifically South Africa), which is the better candidate to compite with the Bengal tigers for the heaviest cat today. Tigers from Kaziranga and lions from the Crater don't count, as there is no information of them at this moment and all is just speculation.