ON THE EDGE OF EXTINCTION - B - THE LION (Panthera leo) - Printable Version +- WildFact (https://wildfact.com/forum) +-- Forum: Premier Section (https://wildfact.com/forum/forum-premier-section) +--- Forum: Edge of Extinction (https://wildfact.com/forum/forum-edge-of-extinction) +--- Thread: ON THE EDGE OF EXTINCTION - B - THE LION (Panthera leo) (/topic-on-the-edge-of-extinction-b-the-lion-panthera-leo) |
RE: ON THE EDGE OF EXTINCTION - B - THE LION (Panthera leo) - johnny rex - 09-12-2018 In the third picture of lion skulls records, there are a handful of skulls scoring exceeding 28 other than Angus Murray's 28 6/16 lion skull. RE: ON THE EDGE OF EXTINCTION - B - THE LION (Panthera leo) - johnny rex - 09-12-2018 [attachment=1453] Lion skull with total score (28 15/16) exceeded Angus Murray's lion skull at 28 6/16. I'm starting to doubt whether those skulls at SCI are measured accurately or not. A lion skull with that total score measurement must have length almost 18 inches. By the way, lions hunted in Southern Africa (South Africa & Namibia) according to SCI are canned lions (captive lions). RE: ON THE EDGE OF EXTINCTION - B - THE LION (Panthera leo) - johnny rex - 09-12-2018 [attachment=1454] Length and width of some SCI record lion skulls. Thoughts? RE: ON THE EDGE OF EXTINCTION - B - THE LION (Panthera leo) - johnny rex - 09-15-2018 Record Indian lion skull [attachment=1465] [attachment=1466] [attachment=1467] [attachment=1468] A male lion skull, on mahogany mount, with plaque stating 'This male lion is one of the largest on record, length back to front 15 3/8th inches, width across the zigomatic arches 10 5/8th inches, dental formula 31/3121, Panthera Leo, Gir Forist, Kathiawara India 1902', 38cm deep. Sold with license https://www.goldingyoung.com/Lot/?sale=MS011016-1&lot=277&id=544266 Not sure if it was measured over a straight line or not RE: ON THE EDGE OF EXTINCTION - B - THE LION (Panthera leo) - johnny rex - 09-17-2018 [attachment=1475] Here I make a comparison between the largest skull of tiger (using the 406 mm Siberian tiger skull as an example) and the largest skull of lion (using 419 mm Lionzilla skull as an example). What I found was despite the largest lion skull is clearly longer in total length than the largest tiger skull as what is shown in the picture, the dorsal skull (which is only the length of the cranium without the mandible) of the tiger and the dorsal skull of the lion were almost of the same length if the skulls are not resting naturally where both are not placed on a table like how Christiansen assesed the length of big cat skulls (Christiansen's method of skull measuring with skull positioned such that superior dentition are parallel to surface below). So, I think any 17+ inches long lion skull, excluding their mandible, will have similar length dorsal skull with those 16 inches tiger skull if they are not resting naturally. Thus, lion skulls seem longer because of their skull shape or configuration. Thoughts? RE: ON THE EDGE OF EXTINCTION - B - THE LION (Panthera leo) - johnny rex - 09-18-2018 [attachment=1477] If both skulls are like this, the differences in size seem minimal. RE: ON THE EDGE OF EXTINCTION - B - THE LION (Panthera leo) - Smilodon-Rex - 09-18-2018 (09-15-2018, 01:01 PM)johnny rex Wrote: Record Indian lion skull Is the biggest Asiatic lion's skull record? RE: ON THE EDGE OF EXTINCTION - B - THE LION (Panthera leo) - johnny rex - 09-18-2018 (09-18-2018, 07:02 AM)Smilodon-Rex Wrote:(09-15-2018, 01:01 PM)johnny rex Wrote: Record Indian lion skull According to the description of the skull, it is the largest Indian lion skull. But I'm not sure about the measurement method. RE: ON THE EDGE OF EXTINCTION - B - THE LION (Panthera leo) - Smilodon-Rex - 09-18-2018 (09-18-2018, 07:22 AM)johnny rex Wrote:(09-18-2018, 07:02 AM)Smilodon-Rex Wrote:(09-15-2018, 01:01 PM)johnny rex Wrote: Record Indian lion skull maybe it is based on the two point measuring, according to the width of skull, the skull length is GSL RE: ON THE EDGE OF EXTINCTION - B - THE LION (Panthera leo) - Smilodon-Rex - 09-18-2018 (09-09-2018, 02:39 AM)GuateGojira Wrote: The lion skull of 432 mm – 17 inches long.So in your opinion, the biggest lion's skull record is not the 432 mm? is should be a 419 mm? BTW, the biggest East African lion's skull is 408 mm, although it is smaller than South African lion, however, the skull's relative value is better. compared with the 432 mm skull, it just less 4 mm in the width RE: ON THE EDGE OF EXTINCTION - B - THE LION (Panthera leo) - BorneanTiger - 09-18-2018 (09-06-2018, 03:24 AM)GuateGojira Wrote:(09-04-2018, 06:34 PM)BorneanTiger Wrote: I have a question, are you sure that the figure of 120 cm in standing height cannot be reached by any lion, considering the limited populations of lions used in the study of Smuts et al. (https://zslpublications.onlinelibrary.wi....tb01433.x)? For Southern Africa in particular, Smuts et al. used samples from Rhodesia (now Zimbabwe), the Kalahari region (divided between Botswana, Namibia and South Africa) and Kruger National Park in South Africa, and I would like to mention that Botswanan lions in the Okavango Delta have a peculiar physique, in which the front part of the body is noticeably more prominent than the rear, or the front limbs are noticeably more prominent than the hind limbs, making them somewhat similar to hyenas and saber-toothed cats, and this has to do with their unusual lifestyle of swimming or going through water or swamps:In fact, if you check the graphics in the document of Smuts et al. (1980), those shoulder measurements were taken by Dr Smuts and his team in the Kruger Park, and he specifically says that is not the standing height. There is no height reported for any other places in that paper. (09-18-2018, 07:02 AM)Smilodon-Rex Wrote:(09-15-2018, 01:01 PM)johnny rex Wrote: Record Indian lion skull It doesn't have to be the biggest Asiatic lion's skull, because we shouldn't forget the fact that the Asiatic lion wasn't just in India, but also in other countries such as Iran (formerly called 'Persia', which is why the Asiatic lion's also known as the "Persian lion", especially in Iran, which is keen on the latter name even today, rather than the name "Indian lion": https://books.google.com/books?id=esV0hccod0kC&lpg=PP1&pg=PP1&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=Persian%20lion&f=false, https://books.google.com/books?id=t2EZCScFXloC&q=Persian+lion#v=snippet&q=Persian%20lion&f=false, https://theiranproject.com/blog/2014/02/24/the-persian-lion-panthera-leo-persica-belongs-to-persia/ persia, https://ifpnews.com/news/homeland/nature/a-fake-indian-name-for-the-persian-lion/), and though the Iranian lion may be extinct, specimens from Iran were around for scientific studies: - Skin of Shirea the Persian lioness in the National Museum of Ireland in Dublin: https://www.museum.ie/The-Collections/Documentation-Discoveries/July-2013/A-Persian-Lioness *This image is copyright of its original author - Barnett et al. had used 2 skulls from Iran for a study which showed that the Asiatic lion is closely related to the Barbary lion of North Africa: https://web.archive.org/web/20070808182526/http://www.adelaide.edu.au/acad/publications/papers/Barnett%20PRS%20lions.pdf *This image is copyright of its original author *This image is copyright of its original author - Bertola et al. had A-DNA from Iran, labelled "Haplotype 28" or "H28", and this study showed that the Asiatic and Barbary lions are also related to West and (north) Central African lions, and to an extent, Northeast African lions: https://www.nature.com/articles/srep30807?WT.feed_name=subjects_evolution *This image is copyright of its original author *This image is copyright of its original author
RE: ON THE EDGE OF EXTINCTION - B - THE LION (Panthera leo) - GuateGojira - 09-19-2018 Quick post: @johnny rex: That "lionzilla" skull is in fact the extra large lion skull from Boneclones, the greatest length is of 393 mm, smaller than the largest Manchurian tiger skull of 406 mm reported by V. Mazák. @Smilodon-Rex: If we take in count the hunting records, the skull of 419 mm from South Africa should be the largest (the record of 432 mm never existed), but not because of the original source (Vaugan Kirby, a hunter that probably measured the skull between uprights like all the hunters of that time), but because the fact that the skull was actually measured by Rowland Ward or his team. Check that this skull is not amoung the "Owner's measurements" which means that it was measured with callipers, like the picture of Mr Ward with a lion skull suggest (he is measuring the zygomatic wide in the picture). Check the image: *This image is copyright of its original author There is no reason to dobth that he also used the callipers to measured the total length of the skull with the same instrument, and take in count that using callipers the length of the mandible is not included, which discard the complains of the few posters that doubt on this records. Based on this and in the Rowland Ward's Records of Big Game book, in its 5th edition (1914), the longest lion skull in was of 419 mm (South Africa) and the longest tiger skull was of 384 mm (India). However, some people complain about the reliability of these records, despite the fact that we have a picture of Mr Ward measuring the zygomatic wide with calipers, which suggest that also the GSL was measured with the same method. At the end, it depends on the reader if he/she accepts of not the records from Rowland Wards. If we complettelly discard the hunting records of any source and we only accept the scientific records, the longest lion skull (from the wild) was of 401 mm from Southern Africa (Roberts, 1951) and the longest tiger skull (from the wild) was of 383 mm from Manchuria (Mazák, 1981). Please take in count that the skull of 402 mm from Ethiopia and measured by Mazák (1983-2013) came from a captive specimen, and the skull of 408 mm (another captive animal) reported by Dr Patterson in his book, was from South Africa, not East Africa. So the longest lion skull from the wild at East Africa was, in fact, of 380 mm, according with Allen and Hollister (both authors summarized in Roberst, 1951). @"Bornean Tiger": Barbary lions and Indian lions are not only closelly related, they are the same subspecies. In few words, all the lions from India, Persia, Greece (?), Barbary and west Africa, are the same subspecies Panthera leo leo. There is a study from Dr Simon Black "The Challenges and Relevance of Exploring the Genetics of North Africa’s (Barbary Lion) and the Conservation of Putative Descendants in Captivity" from 2016 where he concludes, based in genetic, that the Indian lions are closer to the "pure" Barbary lions than the specimens housed in the Rabatt Zoo (previously believed to be the last "pure" Barbary population), and that may be used in the future for reintroduction in the north of Africa. To finish this post, about the skull of the "record" Indian lion posted here, I doubt that it is of that size, we have learned that the skulls sold in the internet are terrible measured, normally the seller only put a tape along the skull (following the curve) which greatly exagerate its real size. For the moment, the longest Asiatic lion skull (taking in count Egypt, Greece, Israel, Persia and India) is a specimen of 365.8 mm from an Indian male (Prater, 1921). RE: ON THE EDGE OF EXTINCTION - B - THE LION (Panthera leo) - johnny rex - 09-20-2018 (09-19-2018, 09:15 AM)GuateGojira Wrote: Quick post: I have contacted the owner of the skull cast of Lionzilla about the skull itself through a taxidermy forum, Lionzilla is not the Extra large lion skull from Bone Clones. She informed me that she measured Lionzilla skull with calipers without the lower jaw with overall score equal to 28 inches or 710 mm. RE: ON THE EDGE OF EXTINCTION - B - THE LION (Panthera leo) - Smilodon-Rex - 09-24-2018 *This image is copyright of its original author "The lion of Bulgaria" -The "Zlatna Panega frieze of hunting lions" RE: ON THE EDGE OF EXTINCTION - B - THE LION (Panthera leo) - GuateGojira - 10-06-2018 (09-20-2018, 11:15 AM)johnny rex Wrote: I have contacted the owner of the skull cast of Lionzilla about the skull itself through a taxidermy forum, Lionzilla is not the Extra large lion skull from Bone Clones. She informed me that she measured Lionzilla skull with calipers without the lower jaw with overall score equal to 28 inches or 710 mm. I saw your post in the Tiger extinction topic, but the owner continue quoting only the final score of 28 inches. If she measured the skull with calipers, why she don't say the correct measurements, which are greatest length and appart the bizygomatic wide by separate? She only measured the mold (420 mm x 297 mm) and altough the length match with the largest skulls actually measured, the wide is simple exagerated. The largest skull measured by Rowland Ward (1914; not owner's meausrements) was of the giant specimen from Kirby's lion, that measured 16.5 inches (419 mm) in greatest length and 10 inches (254 mm) wide, this is the true record specimen in hunting sources and the total score is of 26.5 inches. The largest lion skull from Stevenson-Hamilton was of 16 inches (406 mm) in greatest length and 10 3/5 inches (269 mm) wide (if this skull was measured with calipers or between perpendiculars, like the "accurate" hunters (where Stevenson-Hamilton belong) in the old days done, is not known) and produce an score of 26 3/5 inches. Interestingly the only lion skull with the score of 28 inches is the captive lion of Delagoa Bay (432mm X 281mm), that now we know was incorrectly reported by Rowland Ward (1914; owner's measurements). That is why I am suspicious of this lion "record" of Lionzilla. Even worst, a bizygomatic wide of 297 mm sounds like a clear exageration, as no lion or tiger skull reported was so wide (only cave lions!!!). In fact, the widest lion skull in scientific litterature was of 277 mm and came from a captive specimen in New York (Hollister, 1917) and the extra large lion skull from Bone Clones is 278 mm wide. Don't get me wrong, I do believe that you are talking with this person, but certainly I can't belive in her, specially when there are no records reported, in hunting and scientific records actually measured and from dozens of specimens, with those dimentions. |