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+----- Thread: Lions of Manyeleti (/topic-lions-of-manyeleti)
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RE: Lions of Manyeleti - Tr1x24 - 12-09-2020
(12-09-2020, 01:18 AM)sundarbans Wrote: There is always a lot of mention of the Avoca/Giraffe males in these threads. And they seem to have been a successful coalition with many of their offspring going on to breed successfully. Can anyone give me more details about the coalition? How many were they? When and where did they reign? And why are they called "Avoca/Giraffe"? Are any of them alive?
7 males born in Giraffe pride, 2 in 2007/8,4 in 2009 and 1 in 2011..
2 oldest left the pride first and become pride males of Avoca pride, and where named Avoca males..
4 brothers joined them later and formed Avoca/Giraffe coalition of 6..
7th youngest brother didnt joined them, he left on his own and became dominant in Thornybush over Black Dam pride..
Avoca/Giraffes where dominant over Avoca pride in 2012/13 and sired 5 Avoca males..
Later on around 2015 they moved into Ngala and become dominant over Birmingham and Birmingham breakeaway/Red Road pride..
Then some of them started moving further east around Orpen area and north Manyeleti, they where dominant over Koppies and possibly Scorro pride there, and maybe more in Kruger..
In 2018 they abandon or lost Ngala territory to Ross males (apperantly 1 Avoca/Giraffe was killed by Ross males, but only a speculation )..
By that time some of them are further into Manyeleti with Nharu and Mbiri prides, others are around Orpen gates, but at that time 2 Orpen males shows up..
In late 2018/early 2019 only 3 where seen, 2 had bad limps, 1 with limp then disapeared..
Other 2 trailed Nharus and then 1 of them got killed in early 2019 by either Nharu pride or Orpen males who where seen mating with Nharu pride at that time..
Last one become nomadic and he died this year, at the beginning of 2020..
They overthroned N. Matimbas in Ngala/Orpen area, killing Slit Nose and apperantly they killed 1 or 2 Skybed males..
Youngest, "7th" Giraffe male is possiblity still alive, but hasnt been seen for half a year..
Great, big and powerful coalition, but unfortunately their demise came very quickly in late 2018/early 2019 they lost almost all their members..
Hope this helps..
RE: Lions of Manyeleti - Timbavati - 12-09-2020
(12-09-2020, 02:33 AM)Tr1x24 Wrote:(12-09-2020, 01:18 AM)sundarbans Wrote: There is always a lot of mention of the Avoca/Giraffe males in these threads. And they seem to have been a successful coalition with many of their offspring going on to breed successfully. Can anyone give me more details about the coalition? How many were they? When and where did they reign? And why are they called "Avoca/Giraffe"? Are any of them alive?
7 males born in Giraffe pride, 2 in 2007/8,4 in 2009 and 1 in 2011..
2 oldest left the pride first and become pride males of Avoca pride, and where named Avoca males..
4 brothers joined them later and formed Avoca/Giraffe coalition of 6..
7th youngest brother didnt joined them, he left on his own and became dominant in Thornybush over Black Dam pride..
Avoca/Giraffes where dominant over Avoca pride in 2012/13 and sired 5 Avoca males..
Later on around 2015 they moved into Ngala and become dominant over Birmingham and Birmingham breakeaway/Red Road pride..
Then some of them started moving further east around Orpen area and north Manyeleti, they where dominant over Koppies and possibly Scorro pride there, and maybe more in Kruger..
In 2018 they abandon or lost Ngala territory to Ross males (apperantly 1 Avoca/Giraffe was killed by Ross males, but only a speculation )..
By that time some of them are further into Manyeleti with Nharu and Mbiri prides, others are around Orpen gates, but at that time 2 Orpen males shows up..
In late 2018/early 2019 only 3 where seen, 2 had bad limps, 1 with limp then disapeared..
Other 2 trailed Nharus and then 1 of them got killed in early 2019 by either Nharu pride or Orpen males who where seen mating with Nharu pride at that time..
Last one become nomadic and he died this year, at the beginning of 2020..
They overthroned N. Matimbas in Ngala/Orpen area, killing Slit Nose and apperantly they killed 1 or 2 Skybed males..
Youngest, "7th" Giraffe male is possiblity still alive, but hasnt been seen for half a year..
Great, big and powerful coalition, but unfortunately their demise came very quickly in late 2018/early 2019 they lost almost all their members..
Hope this helps..
You forgot to add the Giraffe male that disappeared in 2017 that has took-over the Avoca pride with Brutus. As far I remember, The Ross males haven't killed to any member of the Avoca/Giraffe coalition.
RE: Lions of Manyeleti - Timbavati - 12-09-2020
(12-09-2020, 01:18 AM)sundarbans Wrote: There is always a lot of mention of the Avoca/Giraffe males in these threads. And they seem to have been a successful coalition with many of their offspring going on to breed successfully. Can anyone give me more details about the coalition? How many were they? When and where did they reign? And why are they called "Avoca/Giraffe"? Are any of them alive?
The Giraffe pride used to be a big pride with 3 bigger older males and 2 Sub males. The pride eventually split up with 4 lionesses and 9 cubs that formed the Avoca pride. They mainly moved around 5 properties in the south west of Timbavati. The Wiggil property, Klaserie Reserve and Thorneybush reserve was still fenced out at the time. Around 2006 the older males were not there anymore and 3 new males took over the 2 prides. They were the Original 3 Giraffe pride Males.
Klaserie Reserve that was fenced had the 2 Ross males with the Ross pride. Hunting took place in both reserves at the time and some point 1 Giraffe male disappeared or moved off from the other two males. The Two Ross Males were hunted and the fence between the reserves were dropped just after that time. The Ross pride were without males. The Giraffe males saw the gap and added the Ross pride to their territory. The commercial lodge in the area started naming them the Ross males and others in the area followed suit. Hence my point that these males were the Giraffe males and not the Ross males. The Giraffe males fathered the current males called the Ross Males that is currently moving around Ngala, Orpen, Northern Maneyleti and south west Timbavati. The same Giraffe Males fathered the Rockfig Male that was around Rockfig Lodge in Timbavati and moved later into Kruger Park and was seen around Bobbejaankrans, Mudzanzeni and Talamati area. They also father some other males with Avoca pride that disappeared around ages 2 and 3. The Giraffe Males also had 7 Sub males with the Giraffe pride. The 2 older males from the seven become the New Avoca Males. 2 Males went north and I did not see them again. The other 3 Males moved south and occasionally with the 2 Avoca males. That is where the people started talking about the Avoca/Giraffe coalition.
The second last offspring of the old Giraffe Male was the Young Giraffe male that moved into Thornybush through a hole that was made in the fence a few weeks before the fence got removed. He was not brothers of the same age than the others. That is the male that took over the Blackdam pride.
The 2 Avoca Males fathered 5 young Males in the Avoca pride of which 2 disappeared and the other 3 moved into Manyeleti and Sabi Sands.
Note: Those two 2 males from the Avoca pride disappeared, In fact, Are the 2 S.Avoca males... And the Giraffe males (are the old Ross males) Ziggi Hugo used to know them as the old Giraffe males. They have started to being known as the old Ross males when they have took-over the Ross pride in Klaserie
RE: Lions of Manyeleti - Hairy tummy - 12-09-2020
Wow, You guys have great knowledge, thanks for sharing. Do you have any pictures of the old avoca /giraffe males?
RE: Lions of Manyeleti - Timbavati - 12-09-2020
RE: Lions of Manyeleti - Timbavati - 12-09-2020
(12-09-2020, 03:22 AM)Hairy tummy Wrote: Wow, You guys have great knowledge, thanks for sharing. Do you have any pictures of the old avoca /giraffe males?
I'll post photos of the 4 Giraffe males born in 2009.
RE: Lions of Manyeleti - Timbavati - 12-09-2020
This is the least known boy of the Avoca/Giraffe coalition. There are quite a few shots of him in Manyeleti where he seemed to subtly deteriorate before he disappeared in the beginning of 2018.
Photo credits: Brad Marais,Johan Smalman and Christof Schoeman (credits given in order of appearance)
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
RE: Lions of Manyeleti - Timbavati - 12-09-2020
This is the Giraffe male with a bursa or cyst on his left hip (One of the four that were born in Sept 2009) He was easily identified by the bursa or cyst on his left hip. Apart from that he was a big handsome male who liked his own company. Tintswalo described him as 'the lone Giraffe male that usually spends time by himself away from the rest of his brothers.' He had the hip cyst since 2015, but his health deteriorated rapidly at the end of 2017 in Manyeleti and he was not seen after.
Photo credit: Johan Smalman (credits given in order of appearance)
*This image is copyright of its original author
RE: Lions of Manyeleti - Timbavati - 12-09-2020
This is the big lighter maned Giraffe male (One of the four that were born in Sept 2009) He was the last member of the Avoca/Giraffe coalition who died this year at buffelshoek area. He had a injury on his left rear ankle injury. it was only after his older brother Brutus died in April 2019 that he was unable to hold on to any of the Manyeleti prides (and as such ready food) in the face of competition with the Orpen males and the Red Road male.
Photo credits: Christof Schoeman,Roan Du Plessis and Christof Schoeman (credits given in order of appearance)
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
RE: Lions of Manyeleti - Timbavati - 12-09-2020
This is the white faced Giraffe male (1 of 4 born Sept 2009). He was probably the best known of his four litter brothers, he was the fullest maned and the most handsome. He was photographed after getting mauled by the Ross males in 2015 - see below. He recovered well and was seen dominating the Whiteface Matimba male at a kill in Ngala in 2017, He was in great condition when he disappeared in 2018 without a trace!! Such a shame!
Photo credits: (1 & 2) to Christof Schoeman,(3) Johan Smalman and (4) to Scott Nyams (credits given in order of appearance)
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
RE: Lions of Manyeleti - Gijima - 12-09-2020
Great pictures and info! I see a lot of resembles with the Giraffe males and S Avocas. Even Blondie looks like lighter maned Giraffe Male.
Their history is so confusing because there was no consistency in how anyone was named. Basically they were seven males from the Giraffe Pride, and they were also sired by males from the Giraffe Pride (“old Ross Males”)?
Also any idea what they were up to in 2014? It seems like between when they were dominant over the Avoca Pride and when they went to be dominant over the Birmingham Pride there was no reports of them.
RE: Lions of Manyeleti - Timbavati - 12-09-2020
(12-09-2020, 05:05 AM)Gijima Wrote: Great pictures and info! I see a lot of resembles with the Giraffe males and S Avocas. Even Blondie looks like lighter maned Giraffe Male.
Their history is so confusing because there was no consistency in how anyone was named. Basically they were seven males from the Giraffe Pride, and they were also sired by males from the Giraffe Pride (“old Ross Males”)?
Also any idea what they were up to in 2014? It seems like between when they were dominant over the Avoca Pride and when they went to be dominant over the Birmingham Pride there was no reports of them.
Ziggi Hugo known to the old Ross males as the Giraffe males, As they were the dominant of the Giraffe pride at that moment.
RE: Lions of Manyeleti - Slayerd - 12-09-2020
I was actually surprised to hear the guide say Red Road was that big. I knew he was a big male but Junior and DM have also been mentioned as huge too. I guess appearance on camera is deceiving just like how Nhenha is the largest in Sabi Sands but people think others are larger. I think it also comes with the fact that he has still been coming into his peak unlike the Othawa Male. They are around the same age but have different developments. His size also makes me think the 3 Nharu females who are the Birmingham Boys sisters are huge lionesses as they look decently sized next to Red Road. @Tr1x24 you said all the Avocas besides DM are average but remember photographers and guides say the Ring Eyed Southern Avoca is larger.
RE: Lions of Manyeleti - Timbavati - 12-09-2020
(12-09-2020, 06:28 AM)Slayerd Wrote: I was actually surprised to hear the guide say Red Road was that big. I knew he was a big male but Junior and DM have also been mentioned as huge too. I guess appearance on camera is deceiving just like how Nhenha is the largest in Sabi Sands but people think others are larger. I think it also comes with the fact that he has still been coming into his peak unlike the Othawa Male. They are around the same age but have different developments. His size also makes me think the 3 Nharu females who are the Birmingham Boys sisters are huge lionesses as they look decently sized next to Red Road. @Tr1x24 you said all the Avocas besides DM are average but remember photographers and guides say the Ring Eyed Southern Avoca is larger.
Regarding lion sizes, Are a lot of different opinions through the community, In spite of Nhenha is known as the largest male in the Sabi Sands currently, The Red road male has something special, He's 1 year younger than the northern Avoca males and he is much bigger than them. That's a truly beast, Without a doubt!
RE: Lions of Manyeleti - Slayerd - 12-09-2020
(12-09-2020, 08:12 AM)TinoArmando Wrote:(12-09-2020, 06:28 AM)Slayerd Wrote: I was actually surprised to hear the guide say Red Road was that big. I knew he was a big male but Junior and DM have also been mentioned as huge too. I guess appearance on camera is deceiving just like how Nhenha is the largest in Sabi Sands but people think others are larger. I think it also comes with the fact that he has still been coming into his peak unlike the Othawa Male. They are around the same age but have different developments. His size also makes me think the 3 Nharu females who are the Birmingham Boys sisters are huge lionesses as they look decently sized next to Red Road. @Tr1x24 you said all the Avocas besides DM are average but remember photographers and guides say the Ring Eyed Southern Avoca is larger.
Regarding lion sizes, Are a lot of different opinions through the community, In spite of Nhenha is known as the largest male in the Sabi Sands currently, The Red road male has something special, He's 1 year younger than the northern Avoca males and he is much bigger than them. That's a truly beast, Without a doubt!
I think it's the same thing for Nhenha and Red Road. Just like this guide stated that he is the largest, the same goes for Nhenha as he was stated to be the largest by them as well. Red Road might be a year younger but he is still already in his prime, so he is already reaching his peak just like the Othawa Male. He might get more muscle or bulk and his mane will grow and get darker but other than that, he will be like this for the rest of his prime until he starts ageing. He won't grow anymore. He is already an adult. Just like humans, lions don't grow after a certain age and he is beyond that age.