(02-05-2023, 11:52 PM)Mdz123 Wrote: So this means that although the 2 oldest had taken over the Avoca pride, they recognized their brothers and accepted them into the coalition? This would be a rare case where family had something to play in lion society.

(02-05-2023, 11:53 PM)criollo2mil Wrote: Since this debate has been going on, and since I never have seen a more compelling argument than the following, let me provide the evidence I go with that convinces me that Skorro sired the Red Road Male.    This evidence is from research put together by Facebook user:  Ruiting Zhong.  He not only provides photographic evidence, he provides links to the original photos which confirm the dates and if you know the historical circumstances, it would provide a much much compelling argument that Skorros sired him and not the Avoca/Girrafe.    If there is compelling evidence ‘other than passed down hearsay’ that it was otherwise the Avoca/Girrafe, please please share, and I’m absolutely open to studying it.

(02-06-2023, 12:16 AM)SMK350 Wrote: @criollo2mil We have to remember that the Birmingham pride at this time lacked a dominant male and the females were seen with many different coalitions including Rockfig and his young partner, Northern Matimbas, giraffe males, and even the last Old Birmingham who was still seen with the pride. That person did a fantastic job finding Scorro with the cubs, but it would be difficult to prove Scorro was the only male with those females. 

Even Tintswalo says Red Road could be a Matimba offspring, and of course I don’t put much weight on what Tintswalo thinks because they’re just speculating, but it shows how the Birmingham pride were seen with many coalitions at that time.

(02-05-2023, 11:53 PM)criollo2mil Wrote:

(02-05-2023, 07:38 PM)Mdz123 Wrote: Red Road male was fathered by the 7 old Avoca/Giraffe males. He is dominating alone since there is no large coalition close to him. His neighbors are all lone males apart from Tintswalos.

Since this debate has been going on, and since I never have seen a more compelling argument than the following, let me provide the evidence I go with that convinces me that Skorro sired the Red Road Male.    This evidence is from research put together by Facebook user:  Ruiting Zhong.  He not only provides photographic evidence, he provides links to the original photos which confirm the dates and if you know the historical circumstances, it would provide a much much compelling argument that Skorros sired him and not the Avoca/Girrafe.    If there is compelling evidence ‘other than passed down hearsay’ that it was otherwise the Avoca/Girrafe, please please share, and I’m absolutely open to studying it.    

Repost as follows:


I have tried hard to find out the real identity of the red road male. I think his father is skorro thanda impi male, not Giraffe / Avoca coalitions. Although this conclusion is different from what lion fans believe at present, some people think that I am making up a story, but I will use evidence to prove that I am not making up a story, and I am telling the truth.

Photos Credits:  by Renzo Gaudenzi on December 11, 2014
Because the photographer has stopped sharing function, so I attached the link. Please open it with your computer (it must be computer, not mobile phone)

https://www.flickr.com/photos/regaudeo/16339828905/in/album-72157647747843353/  

https://www.flickr.com/photos/regaudeo/16160865367/in/album-72157647747843353/  

https://www.flickr.com/photos/regaudeo/16320782156/in/album-72157647747843353/

(02-06-2023, 12:42 AM)BA0701 Wrote:

(02-05-2023, 11:53 PM)criollo2mil Wrote:

(02-05-2023, 07:38 PM)Mdz123 Wrote: Red Road male was fathered by the 7 old Avoca/Giraffe males. He is dominating alone since there is no large coalition close to him. His neighbors are all lone males apart from Tintswalos.

Since this debate has been going on, and since I never have seen a more compelling argument than the following, let me provide the evidence I go with that convinces me that Skorro sired the Red Road Male.    This evidence is from research put together by Facebook user:  Ruiting Zhong.  He not only provides photographic evidence, he provides links to the original photos which confirm the dates and if you know the historical circumstances, it would provide a much much compelling argument that Skorros sired him and not the Avoca/Girrafe.    If there is compelling evidence ‘other than passed down hearsay’ that it was otherwise the Avoca/Girrafe, please please share, and I’m absolutely open to studying it.    

Repost as follows:


I have tried hard to find out the real identity of the red road male. I think his father is skorro thanda impi male, not Giraffe / Avoca coalitions. Although this conclusion is different from what lion fans believe at present, some people think that I am making up a story, but I will use evidence to prove that I am not making up a story, and I am telling the truth.

Photos Credits:  by Renzo Gaudenzi on December 11, 2014
Because the photographer has stopped sharing function, so I attached the link. Please open it with your computer (it must be computer, not mobile phone)

https://www.flickr.com/photos/regaudeo/16339828905/in/album-72157647747843353/  

https://www.flickr.com/photos/regaudeo/16160865367/in/album-72157647747843353/  

https://www.flickr.com/photos/regaudeo/16320782156/in/album-72157647747843353/

So, as recent as 8 years ago, the Birmingham Pride was just two lionesses and 6 cubs, some of which were obviously male? My how that pride grew in such a short period.

(02-06-2023, 12:42 AM)BA0701 Wrote: So, as recent as 8 years ago, the Birmingham Pride was just two lionesses and 6 cubs, some of which were obviously male? My how that pride grew in such a short period.

(02-06-2023, 12:23 AM)Tr1x24 Wrote:

(02-06-2023, 12:16 AM)SMK350 Wrote: @criollo2mil We have to remember that the Birmingham pride at this time lacked a dominant male and the females were seen with many different coalitions including Rockfig and his young partner, Northern Matimbas, giraffe males, and even the last Old Birmingham who was still seen with the pride. That person did a fantastic job finding Scorro with the cubs, but it would be difficult to prove Scorro was the only male with those females. 

Even Tintswalo says Red Road could be a Matimba offspring, and of course I don’t put much weight on what Tintswalo thinks because they’re just speculating, but it shows how the Birmingham pride were seen with many coalitions at that time.

Yea thats my point, we will prob never know who exactly sired RRM, as many coalitions/males hang around Ngala at that time, females might mated with multiple males, just look at Ximhungwe/Gingerella now, they where/are mating with 3 different males coalitions. 

Unless we get some more info what was happening at Ngala and Birmingham pride in 2013/14.

(02-06-2023, 12:16 AM)SMK350 Wrote: @criollo2mil We have to remember that the Birmingham pride at this time lacked a dominant male and the females were seen with many different coalitions including Rockfig and his young partner, Northern Matimbas, giraffe males, and even the last Old Birmingham who was still seen with the pride. That person did a fantastic job finding Scorro with the cubs, but it would be difficult to prove Scorro was the only male with those females. 

Even Tintswalo says Red Road could be a Matimba offspring, and of course I don’t put much weight on what Tintswalo thinks because they’re just speculating, but it shows how the Birmingham pride were seen with many coalitions at that time.

(02-06-2023, 12:47 AM)criollo2mil Wrote:

(02-06-2023, 12:42 AM)BA0701 Wrote:

(02-05-2023, 11:53 PM)criollo2mil Wrote:

(02-05-2023, 07:38 PM)Mdz123 Wrote: Red Road male was fathered by the 7 old Avoca/Giraffe males. He is dominating alone since there is no large coalition close to him. His neighbors are all lone males apart from Tintswalos.

Since this debate has been going on, and since I never have seen a more compelling argument than the following, let me provide the evidence I go with that convinces me that Skorro sired the Red Road Male.    This evidence is from research put together by Facebook user:  Ruiting Zhong.  He not only provides photographic evidence, he provides links to the original photos which confirm the dates and if you know the historical circumstances, it would provide a much much compelling argument that Skorros sired him and not the Avoca/Girrafe.    If there is compelling evidence ‘other than passed down hearsay’ that it was otherwise the Avoca/Girrafe, please please share, and I’m absolutely open to studying it.    

Repost as follows:


I have tried hard to find out the real identity of the red road male. I think his father is skorro thanda impi male, not Giraffe / Avoca coalitions. Although this conclusion is different from what lion fans believe at present, some people think that I am making up a story, but I will use evidence to prove that I am not making up a story, and I am telling the truth.

Photos Credits:  by Renzo Gaudenzi on December 11, 2014
Because the photographer has stopped sharing function, so I attached the link. Please open it with your computer (it must be computer, not mobile phone)

https://www.flickr.com/photos/regaudeo/16339828905/in/album-72157647747843353/  

https://www.flickr.com/photos/regaudeo/16160865367/in/album-72157647747843353/  

https://www.flickr.com/photos/regaudeo/16320782156/in/album-72157647747843353/

So, as recent as 8 years ago, the Birmingham Pride was just two lionesses and 6 cubs, some of which were obviously male? My how that pride grew in such a short period.

There were at least 3 lionesses in 2014, this sighting just happened to have two of them.   I have some other pics of the Birminghams in 2014, I will post them in that thread

(02-06-2023, 12:51 AM)Tr1x24 Wrote:

(02-06-2023, 12:42 AM)BA0701 Wrote: So, as recent as 8 years ago, the Birmingham Pride was just two lionesses and 6 cubs, some of which were obviously male? My how that pride grew in such a short period.

No, pride was spliting at that time, not all females from Birmingham pride left Ngala, those who stayed become today's Birmingham breakaway pride, lead by famous Stompie female.

As we said, times in between 2013-2016 are quite unclear what was going on in Ngala and Birmingham pride.

(02-06-2023, 01:10 AM)Tr1x24 Wrote: @criollo2mil yea but even if we rule out Avoca/Giraffes, how we know that those cubs are not N.Matimbas?

Matimbas where dominant force in most of Ngala since 2013 to 2016, they had interactions with Birmingham pride (their natal pride) and apperantly even ousted young Bboys and their Nharu sisters, although based of reports, they never fully control Birmingham pride, that doesnt mean they didnt mate with some females. 

As I said, too little info from Ngala in that period.

(02-06-2023, 02:05 AM)SMK350 Wrote: I want to point out females will flee from even the fathers of their cubs if they had no interactions with those fathers in over a year. Similar the how the Styx pride flees from the Ndzengas. Every male I listed was seen with the Birminghams and that’s why I mentioned them. I’ll go crazy if I try to dig up those obscure sighting but I have definitely seen all those males with the Birminghams. That’s why I didn’t include random coalitions like the young Skybeds because they too were in Ngala but not with the Birmingham pride. 

But yeah all we can do is speculate.