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RE: ON THE EDGE OF EXTINCTION - A - THE TIGER (Panthera tigris) - GrizzlyClaws - 12-11-2017
@
Good information, but try to abate the political tone in your post next time.
RE: ON THE EDGE OF EXTINCTION - A - THE TIGER (Panthera tigris) - Pckts - 12-12-2017
The Tiger Subspecies Revised, 2017
So, how many different tiger subspecies are there, 8? 7? 6? Err...... 2?
- By Darren Naish on November 21, 2017
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*This image is copyright of its original author
Credit: Darren Naish
There are certain animal species where – for reasons related to the charisma of the animal concerned, and the distinct nature of its various populations – we tend to learn about the various subspecies. Giraffes are one good example. Another is the Tiger Panthera tigris.
*This image is copyright of its original author
Not all tigers are the same. Small size and a prominent facial ruff shows here that we're dealing with a Sumatran tiger (this one is in the Welsh Mountain Zoo, Snowdonia). Credit: Darren Naish Most people interested in animals know that tigers vary enough across their extensive (historical) range that the naming of several different forms is warranted. There’s the ‘typical’ tiger of India (the Bengal tiger P. t. tigris), the comparatively gigantic Siberian or Amur tiger in far north-eastern Asia (P. t. altaica), the west Asian Caspian tiger (P. t. virgata), a Chinese form with distinctive stripes (P. t. amoyensis), some poorly known forms from mainland south-east Asia (P. t. corbetti and P. t. jacksoni), and the island-dwellers of south-east Asia (P. t. sondaica of Java, P. t. balica of Bali and P. t. sumatrae of Sumatra). Several of these forms were unable to avoid the persecution and destruction wrought upon them by our own species...
*This image is copyright of its original author
Several books on tiger illustrate all (or most) of the subspecies recognised at the time. This montage is from Kailash Sankhala's 1978 book Tiger! Credit: Collins It’s well known that ‘subspecies’ in a great many vertebrate animals are poorly founded, often being named for convenience or when little was known about variation across a species. Furthermore, which lineages or populations should be recognised as taxa – and which rank those taxa should be awarded – remains one of the greatest areas of disagreement and argument in zoology. If there are multiple tiger lineages, do we recognise a bunch of subspecies, a bunch of different species, or merely a bunch of different forms or variants or ecotypes within a variable entity? Yes, that debate again (see the recent white rhino article). One recent study (Luo et al. 2004) argued for the recognition of six tiger subspecies within the same one species, and another supported the view that we should split tigers and recognise more than one species (Mazák & Groves 2006).
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*This image is copyright of its original author
Phylogenetic relationships among tigers as recovered by Luo et al. (2004). There are a few things to note here: one is the poorly resolved nature of the branching order, another is that P. t. corbetti is not monophyletic. Credit: Darren Naish The reason this article is being published now is that a revision of tiger subspecies has just appeared, specifically as part of the IUCN Cat Specialist Group’s revised taxonomy for cats, as led by cat specialist Andrew Kitchener (Kitchener et al. 2017). This work incorporates thoughts from numerous recent studies, is conservative where data is lacking or poor, and provides a taxonomy that will be formally accepted by the IUCN until the next revision appears. Some people may not like various of the decisions concerned.
*This image is copyright of its original author
Captive Siberian tiger. Supposedly, record-breaking individuals of this form can exceed 300 kg and even 360 kg, but there's some reasonable doubt about the accuracy of these weights. Credit: Darren Naish As discussed by Kitchener et al. (2017), a list of post-1997 publications have sought to better establish tiger phylogeny and taxonomy. One problem is that good information is often worryingly absent: there’s all too little of it when it comes to Javan and Balinese tigers, for example. Be that as it may, several of the results are surprising in view of the traditional subspecies system familiar to many of us: the (extinct) Caspian tiger might be similar enough to the Siberian/Amur tiger to warrant the taxonomic merging of the two (Driscoll et al. 2009: I wrote about this study when it appeared… go to ‘Revising’ the Siberian tiger), P. t. jacksoni is non-monophyletic and appears to be formed of different populations of P. t. corbetti (Kitchener et al. 2017), and the island-dwelling tigers are highly similar anatomically – sometimes overlapping in various skull traits – and have scarcely any geographical structure in their genetics (Kitchener 1999, Wilting et al. 2015).
*This image is copyright of its original author
The biggest and mightiest of the tigers: the Siberian or Amur tiger. These individuals were photographed at Marwell Wildlife, England. Credit: Darren Naish Furthermore, modern tiger populations are far more distinct and inbred than they were just decades ago because of local extinction, the result being that the distinctive nature of some populations today is not reflective of the situation back when the subspecies were first named (Mondol et al. 2013).
In view of all of this, what do Kitchener et al. (2017) propose as goes tiger subspecies? Drumroll… they propose that we should recognise just two tiger subspecies: the nominal P. t. trigris of mainland Asia, and P. t. sondaica of Sumatra, Java and Bali. Notably, however, the authors themselves do not wholly agree on this proposal, two of them wishing for the continued recognition of P. t. amoyensis, P. t. corbetti and P. t. jacksoni in mainland Asia, and for distinction of P. t. balica and P. t. sumatrae from P. t. sondaica among island-dwelling forms. Science is said not to work on the basis of number of votes… but it often does, since we tend to work on the idea that a conclusion is more robustly supported the more workers agree on it. Clearly, doubt and differences of opinion remain but the primary conclusion of Kitchener et al. (2017) is that a two subspecies only taxonomy might be the best. Further study will, no doubt, support or refute this view.
*This image is copyright of its original author
Sumatran tiger yawning. I'm sure I've said this before, but -- it isn't difficult to get a photograph of any given cat yawning, you just have to watch it for long enough. Credit: Darren Naish One final thought on this issue: there’s sometimes the worrying implication that a population is only ‘worth saving’ when it’s taxonomically distinct, and that – in synonymising tiger subspecies – there might be the concern that we are downgrading their value and significance. This is, of course, not accurate.
https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/tetrapod-zoology/the-tiger-subspecies-revised-2017/
RE: ON THE EDGE OF EXTINCTION - A - THE TIGER (Panthera tigris) - peter - 12-13-2017
KOREAN TIGERS
Good information was posted by Roflcopters, Kingtheropod and Greatearth. The info resulted in a small debate, that wasn't completely concluded. My guess is Greatearth will take care of a follow-up soon.
As to the information posted. It was known that the Japanese had declared war on dangerous animals during the occupation of Korea. Based on everything we have, it's safe to conclude that tigers most probably disappeared in the early twenties of the last century in the southern part of Korea.
In that period of time, tigers were also severely hunted in Manchuria and the Russian Far East. In Manchuria, tigers most probably disappeared in the late forties or early fifties of the last century. The giant male shot by the Jankovsky's near the Sungari River in July of 1943 could have been one of the last.
In the Russian Far East, a few dozen survived the unslaught. Might have been a result of the Second World War, but my guess is that Kaplanov also made a difference. Although his effort resulted in protection in the Russian Far East, the Russians showed no mercy in the Caspian region. Tigers largely disappeared in the fifties and sixties of the last century. Agriculture.
In China, in about the same period, the Great Leap Forward also resulted in a declaration of war on tigers. They largely disappeared in the fifties and sixties of the last century.
The war on tigers in Korea, the Russian Far East, Manchuria, the Caspian and China lasted for about 60 years. In each of the regions mentioned, apart from the Russian Far East, tigers were all but completely exterminated in less than two decades. In the seventies of the last century, tigers were functionally extinct in most parts of western, central and eastern Asia.
Although I appreciate the debate on Korean tigers, I wonder about the last Chinese tigers. There's no question that there were a few tigers left in remote parts of central China in 2011. A few articles were discussed in this thread, but apart from that it's been very quiet on the eastern front.
Anyone capable of finding a bit more on the remaining tigers of China?
RE: ON THE EDGE OF EXTINCTION - A - THE TIGER (Panthera tigris) - peter - 12-13-2017
THE TIGER KING
I assume that most of us saw 'The Lion King'. Great movie that most certainly had an effect on public opinion. Excellent, as lions can use every kind of support these days.
Tigers also have kings. Korea had one (referring to the movie released a few years ago) and the Chinese (see the series on Chinese tigers in this thread) also saw a few in central parts of China in the sixties of the last century.
India no doubt has a number of tigers that would qualify, but what about southeast Asia and Sumatra?
I found nothing on king tigers in Myanmar, Thailand and Malaysia, but last Saturday (December 9, 2017), I found a smallish report (written by Lucas Brouwers) and this great photograph in a Dutch newspaper (NRC Handelsblad).
This male tiger was caught by a cameratrap somewhere in 2014:
*This image is copyright of its original author
Lucas Brouwers wrote there are about 200 cameras in Sumatra. Biologists use the pictures for research. Here's a few conclusions:
1 - Sumatra only has two healthy populations.
2 - In 2000, Sumatra had 394-1090 tigers. Today, it has 328-908 tigers.
3 - Although the total number of tigers has decreased, the remaining forests have more tigers per square km.
4 - The biggest threat for Sumatran tigers is habitat destruction. Palm oil.
The newspaper said Matthew Scot Luskin is responsible for the photograph. One of the best I saw.
RE: ON THE EDGE OF EXTINCTION - A - THE TIGER (Panthera tigris) - Greatearth - 12-13-2017
KOREAN TIGERS
I am writing paper of the Korean tiger since last year. I needed to buy and read actual book by myself since news, blogs, and articles have bunch of different information.
The Korean tiger was smaller than other Siberian tigers in general. One clear fact was that the Korean tiger was smaller in term of weight unlike other tiger in Asia due to prey depletion in Korea. Male Korean tiger was generally a little bit smaller than other male Siberian tigers, though male Korean tigers are still large animals. Despite smaller size, a few of male Korean tigers were enormous enough to rivaling the size of the Ussurian tiger and even gigantic Manchurian tiger. On the contrary, majority female Korean tigers were very small. Female Korean tigers were about the size of the South China tigress, Malayan tigress, Sumatran tigress, Javan tigress, and male Bali tiger while male Korean tiger was bigger than male/female South China tiger, Indochinese tiger, Malayan tiger, Sumatran tiger, Javan tiger, and Bali tiger.
SIBERIAN TIGERS IN USSURILAND RUSSIAN FAR EAST
The Ussurian tiger is the only alive Siberian tiger, mainly surviving in Sikhote-Alin. We all know their size is smaller than past and they were also came from 30s populations. My strong belief is due to low prey in their habitat along with hunting and habitat loss in early 20th century.
Hunters were highly active in these areas and over hunted ungulate as well since 19th century. Low number of prey caused a lot problems for declining of the Siberian tiger population and their size. Worse problem was this affect serious decline of the Amur leopard. There is Korean tiger documentaries of the Siberian tiger family. PBS documentary 'Siberian Tiger Quest' used many videos from this this Korean documentary. From this documentary, there is a dead Siberian tiger cub after fought with other cubs because of small food. Food was a medium size dog from village. One Russian zoologist clearly said something like "there is no food for tiger and leopard to survive, let see what will remain next 10 years." with checking dead tiger cub. For their survival, there should be a law for completely ban on the hunting of ungulate like deer and boar. While Korea has a huge problem by water deer and boar today since they are somewhat overpopulated. Korea still need to reintroduce extinct sika deer from Russia. Does anyone knows sika deer in Russia is doing okay? A problem of Korea is that it is so small place for tiger to survive. The Amur leopard would do well if they reintroduce in South Korea. I wish biologists and conservationists can solve these problems along with geneticists could discover some way to increasing "gene pool" by using remaining specimen or skin beside introducing other animals.
This is what I am planning to do for my career to reintroduce and study the Siberian tiger and Amur leopard.
MANCHURIAN TIGERS
As for the last Manchurian tiger, I clearly remember published paper written by the Korean biologists team. It is mainly about how to reintroduce the Siberian tiger and Amur leopard in South Korea. Although it is written in Korean, but they mentioned some history of the last Manchurian tiger. That pdf file is disappeared now, but it is in somewhere of my USB or portable drive. I have to find it.
The Siberian tigers survived in southern Manchuria until 1990s just like the last Siberian tigers of North Korea. All I know is that it could be possible that some numbers of Amur leopards are still survive in North Korea. But I don't know if anyone can go to North Korea and study Pantherinae these days.
There is one riddle. Which Siberian tiger in Manchuria was the largest?
The Manchurian tiger was the biggest and largest of all Felidae in modern history, but we don't really know about mysterious Manchurian tiger. The biggest title belongs to central/northern Manchurian tiger or southern/western Manchurian tiger? Southern and western Manchuria boarder of Korea/Russia are a lot of mountains while central and northern Manchuria between the Great and Lesser Khingan mountain ranges are plains. Majority of old photos of the Manchurian tigers looks mainly caught it from southern and western part of Manchuria. Jankowski lived in northern part of Korea and mainly hunted in Korea and southern Manchuria. I don't know about Baikov. The size records of the Manchurian tigers are so small unlike the Siberian tiger in Sikhote-Alin and other parts of the Ussuriland. There is almost no photos, stories, and size records of the Manchurian tiger from central and norther part of Manchuria. Prey animals like deer and boar were larger in Manchuria and northern part of Russian Far East. Is there any location of where did giant Sungari river tiger was hunted? Was it Heilongjiang or Jilin? Was Manchurian tiger lived in Harbin areas were bigger than old photos of the Manchurian tigers from Baikov and Jankowski? Also, what about the Siberian tiger lived in Great Khingan mountain, Lesser Khingan mountain, northern Primorsky Krai, Amur Oblast, Zabaykalsk Krai, and Khabarovsk Krai?
RE: ON THE EDGE OF EXTINCTION - A - THE TIGER (Panthera tigris) - Roflcopters - 12-13-2017
Quote:There is one riddle. Which Siberian tiger in Manchuria was the largest?
The Manchurian tiger was the biggest and largest of all Felidae in modern history
I strongly disagree, Assam and Terai tigers have always been the largest in the modern history. In captivity, no doubt Manchurian genes hold it down but that's another matter. that's debatable.
RE: ON THE EDGE OF EXTINCTION - A - THE TIGER (Panthera tigris) - Greatearth - 12-13-2017
Roflcopters
I seen many people exaggerated assam tiger in wildfact or other places by posting the same stuffs. Some people keep posting comparising chart, it is actually different when you see them in real life. Some people are writing tiger like Wagdoh, Jay, and Madla won't able to match against any male tigers in assam. Some people viewing assam/terai tiger as large and strong as the prehistoric Smilodon populator and American lion. Some people are even saying nonsense like assam tiger can take down indian rhino and asiatic elephant easily by 1 vs 1 match. People extremely overrating assam/terai tiger, so I highly doubt trusting assam tiger mentioning here. There is one phd biology student in my university from assam state, but he doesn't believe tiger in assam is bigger than the Siberian tiger (his belief doesn't change anything though).
Is there any reliable size record in assam tigers by biologist, especially these days? We don't even know exact weight, length, height of tiger like Wagdoh. I seen peter posted size charts of terai tiger from early 1900s.
I remember I read it from some discussions in wildfact. I agree with one person said if they were a real biggest one, then it should have already been changed in a journal long time ago.
Another thing is that there are plenty large prey animals in Assam unlike many other areas today: indian rhino, gaur, water buffalo, and other large animals. These animals, especially rhino was wide spread entire north India. And other large animal was once highly overpopulated in entire India and Asia. I am sure you could find many places that were the same as assam in other parts of india before 1850s. Sumatran rhino and javan rhino was also occurred in eastern India as well. Especially, many people here just view as weight to determine which one is larger. If you relocated assam and terai tigers to northeastern Asia and their size will be different after 2nd generations. Assam tiger would never grow that big and heavy size as in their habitat if you relocate them in a place where prey is totally depleted.
RE: ON THE EDGE OF EXTINCTION - A - THE TIGER (Panthera tigris) - Rishi - 12-13-2017
(12-13-2017, 05:23 PM)Greatearth Wrote: There is a phd biology student in my university from assam state, but he doesn't believe tiger in assam is bigger than the Siberian tiger.
Has this person, atleast, seen several tigers in Assam & Siberia up-close multiple times? Are they his Phd research?
If not, then his words doesn't hold any more weight than yours, or our. Just hailing from Assam isn't qualification enough...
Quote:If you relocated assam and terai tigers to northeastern Asia and their size will be different after 2nd generations. Assam tiger would never grow that big and heavy size as in their habitat if you relocate them in a place where prey is totally depleted.
Interesting speculation.
The Bengal tigers that dwells the snowy mountains of Bhutan/Arunachal, closely related to Assam plains tigers, don't seem to display any such downgraded physique though.
Their largest prey is black bear.. Regular pretty is Takin & Himalayan goat.
*This image is copyright of its original author
RE: ON THE EDGE OF EXTINCTION - A - THE TIGER (Panthera tigris) - Greatearth - 12-13-2017
Rishi
He did his phd on reptiles. He said he did ecology for his master in india back then, but i don't know which animal and it was probably more than 7 years ago now I believe.
He already graduated this spring and he is no longer here unfortunately. I am sure he knows people who studying/saving tigers in Manas and Kaziranga national parks.
I already know about Bhutan tiger. I personally think bengal tiger in Bhutan or other himalayan mountain tiger are very pretty.
Smaller prey doesn't affect seriously like prey depletion if it is the same subspecies living in close area. I have a huge respect on Bhutan since this country is seriously protecting their forest, nature, animal, and wildlife since it is buddhist country. I heard you need to permitted by government if you want to cut forest or something. I don't think Bhutan has a bad prey depletion problem like Korea in 1900 and Russia in 1980s.
Is there any size chart (weight, length, height) of Bhutan tiger? Is there any discoveries of dead cub after fighting with another cubs because of small amount of food and hunger for a long time? I personally don't think Bengal tiger in high Himalayan mountain like Bhutan would grow large as tigers in assam, central india, and terai region due to steep himalayan mountain habitat.
RE: ON THE EDGE OF EXTINCTION - A - THE TIGER (Panthera tigris) - Roflcopters - 12-13-2017
Quote:I seen many people exaggerated assam tiger in wildfact or other places by posting the same stuffs. Some people keep posting comparising chart, it is actually different when you see them in real life. Some people are writing tiger like Wagdoh, Jay, and Madla won't able to match against any male tigers in assam. Some people viewing assam/terai tiger as large and strong as the prehistoric Smilodon populator and American lion. Some people are even saying nonsense like assam tiger can take down indian rhino and asiatic elephant easily by 1 vs 1 match. People extremely overrating assam/terai tiger, so I highly doubt trusting assam tiger mentioning here. There is one phd biology student in my university from assam state, but he doesn't believe tiger in assam is bigger than the Siberian tiger.
that's not really an argument, also nobody in their right mind would bother taking any of the stuff that you highlighted for granted. name one credible person from wildfact that thinks Assam/Terai tigers compare with smilodon or the American lion. quit reading garbage on the internet. you are basing everything off a few bad examples but that's besides the point. the topic here is size and weight. Assam/Terai tigers have always been the largest in the modern history.
Quote:There is one phd biology student in my university from assam state, but he doesn't believe tiger in assam is bigger than the Siberian tiger.
you realize in the last 50 years, most male Siberians caught in the wild were nowhere close to the sizes of Bengals. you know absolutely nothing. throw away your scientific literature, novels and books that still state that "Siberian tigers are the largest". this is nothing short of a science fiction.
Quote:Is there any reliable size record in assam tigers by biologist, especially these days? We don't even know exact weight, length, height of tiger like Wagdoh. I seen peter posted size charts of terai tiger from early 1900s.
Quote:I remember I read it from some discussions in wildfact. I agree with one person said if they were a real biggest one, then it should have already been changed in a journal long time ago.
Unfortunately there are no recent measurements or records but that doesnt change anything, statements from some of the best tiger scientists in India are enough, also in camera trap photos. they set the records straight. Dr.Ullas Karanth saw his biggest tiger in Kaziranga, Dale Miquelle in one of his email showed a great interest in this particular group. Kanwar Juneja who has been on a global wide tiger campaign for several decades also stated that Kaziranga and the tigers of the North are in a league of their own. lack of research and data doesnt mean you shy away from the obvious. this is reality. you cant run away from it.
Quote:
Another thing is that there are plenty large prey animals in Assam unlike many other areas today: indian rhino, gaur, water buffalo, and other large animals. These animals, especially rhino was wide spread entire north India. And other large animals were also highly overpopulated in entire India and Asia. I am sure you could find many places that were the same as assam in other parts of india before 1850s. Sumatran rhino and javan rhino was also occurred in eastern India as well. Especially, many people here just view as weight to determine which one is larger. If you relocated assam and terai tigers to northeastern Asia and their size will be different after 2nd generations. Assam tiger would never grow that big and heavy size as in their habitat if you relocate them in a place where prey is totally depleted.
you're right, Assam has plenty of large herbivores. the Indian Rhino, Asiatic Water Buffalo, Gaur (some parts) and plenty of other animals. It's a tiger paradise, thats why they are the largest/heaviest with the only rivals being the Terai group. what living conditions did Manchurian tigers have in the 1900s? how are they bigger? how are they the largest? this is all questionable.
Quote:If you relocated assam and terai tigers to northeastern Asia and their size will be different after 2nd generations. Assam tiger would never grow that big and heavy size as in their habitat if you relocate them in a place where prey is totally depleted.
Ofcourse but what does this have anything to do with the topic on hand, toss the old Manchurian bloodline from the early 1900s in the same environment and the results would be the same. I dont understand you.
RE: ON THE EDGE OF EXTINCTION - A - THE TIGER (Panthera tigris) - Greatearth - 12-13-2017
Roflcopters
I already know about this. Asam tiger is the largest wild tiger you can find today. I personally don't think terai tiger would grow big as assam. I think tigers in Central India like Panna, Tadoba, and northern India could rival to terai back in past when there was no human disturbance. Also, Size of the Siberian tiger is smaller than Bengal in wild since 1970s measurements while captive Siberian tiger is larger than bengal tiger. There were many records like 330 kg, 390 kg, 384 kg, and 350 kg Siberian tigers by Russian hunters in early 1900s if you know Russian language. But I personally think some of these measurements have been wrong.
I hope you don't mean offensive, but that is very rude to call me I know nothing and throw away my knowledge.
1. Then have you done research on any sort of animals to call me nothing?
2. Are you even planning to go graduate school to research on Felidae if you never done any research on animal?
3. Have you done actual research on tiger by yourself in Asia?
4. Do you know anyone personally who's getting fund by IUCN and National Geograhpic to discuss this?
What do you mean I know absolutely nothing from your perspective to treat me stupid? You don't even know what I am doing and studying.
Well, you can think whatever you want. I am not going to argue with you anyway. You have your own belief.
And if you already worked to save endangered animals and study about them. Then I am sure you know people you mentioned (Ullas Karanth, Kanwar Juneja, and Dale Miquelle) are very busy people. They are generally not going to waste their time to discuss/argue with you through long emails about which tiger is the largest. A problem is that many Pantherinae are in endangered. We don't really know much about them since they are in danger. It isn't easy to study them since they are not many. It costs a lot of money to study/save them. And it isn't easy to get grant to study/save these animals. Not just the tiger and other big cats. There are so many animals are in endangered and we don't really know about them
RE: ON THE EDGE OF EXTINCTION - A - THE TIGER (Panthera tigris) - Roflcopters - 12-13-2017
I think you misunderstood me, i wasnt questioning your knowledge or credibility and i agree, those records of the past are all questionable and that's my argument. I have yet to see anything significant on Manchurian tigers to truly consider them the biggest ever.
RE: ON THE EDGE OF EXTINCTION - A - THE TIGER (Panthera tigris) - Pckts - 12-13-2017
(12-13-2017, 07:28 PM)Greatearth Wrote: Roflcopters
I already know about this. Asam tiger is the largest wild tiger you can find today. I personally don't think terai tiger would grow big as assam. I think tigers in Central India like Panna, Tadoba, and northern India could rival to terai back in past when there was no human disturbance. Also, Size of the Siberian tiger is smaller than Bengal in wild since 1970s measurements while captive Siberian tiger is larger than bengal tiger. There were many records like 330 kg, 390 kg, 384 kg, and 350 kg Siberian tigers by Russian hunters in early 1900s if you know Russian language. But I personally think some of these measurements have been wrong.
I hope you don't mean offensive, but that is very rude to call me I know nothing and throw away my knowledge.
1. Then have you done research on any sort of animals to call me nothing?
2. Have you helped any phd student and professor who's travelling to study animals?
3. Are you even planning to go graduate school to research on Felidae if you never done any research on animal?
4. Have you done actual research on tiger by yourself in Asia?
5. Do you know anyone personally who's getting fund by IUCN and National Geograhpic to discuss this?
6. Are you getting funded by somewhere to do research any animals by yourself?
What do you mean I know absolutely nothing from your perspective to treat me stupid? You don't even know what I am doing and studying.
Well, you can think whatever you want. I am not going to argue with you anyway. You have your own belief.
And if you already worked to save endangered animals and study about them. Then I am sure you know people you mentioned (Ullas Karanth, Kanwar Juneja, and Dale Miquelle) are very busy people. They are generally not going to waste their time to discuss/argue with you through long emails about which tiger is the largest. A problem is that many Pantherinae are in endangered. We don't really know much about them since they are in danger. It isn't easy to study them since they are not many. It costs a lot of money to study/save them. And it isn't easy to get grant to study/save these animals.
No offense but "studying" and "seeing" are two very different things. Unless you speak to people who have first hand experience in the field you're always going to be missing the most valuable information. I have spoken to numerous people on this very topic who have a lot of experience and have seen some of these examples with my own eyes, most know my opinion on the topic so no need to say it again. Data is so scattered and misleading at times that it overshadows some obvious observations, other times it presents nuances that we wouldn't know to look for otherwise, but in the wild you're better off listening to a Guide or Tracker than a Biologist.
I will guarantee this, Packer and Sunquist ask the guides for help when tracking Tigers and Lions, not the other way around.
RE: ON THE EDGE OF EXTINCTION - A - THE TIGER (Panthera tigris) - Wolverine - 12-14-2017
"Why Korean Tigers Disappeared?
(12-10-2017, 12:30 PM)Kingtheropod Wrote: It is none other than a Japanese man Mr. Endo Kimio (遠藤公男) who traced the last remnants of the disappearing tigers on the Korean Peninsula.
The honorary chairman of the Japanese Wild Birds Association (野鳥會) kept track of the Korean tigers for the last 20 years before he came up with his own book titled "Why Korean Tigers Disappeared?" released in 2009 by Adam Books.
Does anybody know from where to get "Why Korean Tigers Disappeared?" in English version? The title sounds quite intriguing. In Amazon as long as I see they offer only the Japanese version of the book:
https://www.amazon.com/Why-Tiger-Korea-disappeared-ISBN/dp/4062026120
RE: ON THE EDGE OF EXTINCTION - A - THE TIGER (Panthera tigris) - paul cooper - 12-15-2017
I thought this would be interesting to share, this excerpt from literature says that the tigers in the coldest parts of asia (amur tiger) was noted to be very big.
"it is frequently found in the northern and coldest parts of Asia, especially of China, which abounds with tigers, which in many parts are noted for being of a very large size, and clothed with longer and denser fur; an instance of nature adapting itself to the climate, for this variety is said to live during the winter in burrows under the snow [bullshit]."
https://books.google.com/books?id=p2BCAQAAIAAJ&pg=PA44&dq=greek+aristotle+heard+of+tigers&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiCgdWmweXXAhWr7YMKHRqnAPkQ6AEIKDAA#v=onepage&q=very%20large%20size&f=false
The book is from 1886