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+--- Thread: ON THE EDGE OF EXTINCTION - A - THE TIGER (Panthera tigris) (/topic-on-the-edge-of-extinction-a-the-tiger-panthera-tigris)
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RE: ON THE EDGE OF EXTINCTION - A - TIGERS (Panthera tigris) - Amnon242 - 04-09-2015
(04-09-2015, 03:15 AM)'Pckts' Wrote: Are the Bottom 2, the sumatran?
They look like two different specimens, the 2nd from the bottom look a little overweight, but the bottom specimen is a fit cat with a massive neck and head.
The top two look to be in fine shape, those are malayan?
First 2 photos - malayan tiger. Its the same male.
Other photos - sumatran, same male (they have only one sumatran).
RE: ON THE EDGE OF EXTINCTION - A - TIGERS (Panthera tigris) - Amnon242 - 04-09-2015
(04-09-2015, 07:03 AM)'peter' Wrote: Amnon, I decided to print two of the links you posted in order to get to a kind of overview. Hope you don't mind. Does Prague still have Amur tigers? Maybe you are able to contact some of the staff about V. Mazak. Ask them if they would be willing to measure the standing height of the shoulder of all big cats. It won't take a lot of trouble.
Ofc no problem...(I just give the link because Im too lazy to print the photos)
They have male and female amur, but these tigers are quite old. Male Xeron was 205 kg weighted (at the age of 14 I think). They had male amur Mauglis who was 246 kg (weighted at the age of 12...I think). BTW they dont weigh big cats regularly, only when these animals arrive to the zoo. I can ask them but I am sceptical...some relevant scientific reason could help - are you working on some kind of publication?
Im more positive about the possibility that they could have some data from V. Mazak (who was employee of Zoo Prague). Ill ask them...
BTW this year they are expecting the arrival of lion pride directly from India so I hope they will be weighted...
RE: ON THE EDGE OF EXTINCTION - A - TIGERS (Panthera tigris) - peter - 04-11-2015
THE SIZE OF MALE INDIAN TIGERS
1 - Length and weight per region
a - 291,55 cm. - 182,30 kg. - n=09 (curves, central-southwest India, before 1879)
b - 281,94 cm. - 190,51 kg. - n=42 (pegs, central India, before 1930)
c - 291,96 cm. - 197,63 kg. - n=18 (curves, northwest India, 1909-1912)
d - 295,46 cm. - 208,96 kg. - n=52 (curves, northeast India, 1890-1908)
e - 301,00 cm. - 221,36 kg. - n=07 (pegs, Nepal, 2 measured and 7 weighed, 1975-1976)
f - 298,00 cm. - 217,27 kg. - n=03 (pegs, southwest India, before 1993)
Ad c - Hewett's sample had some young adults. Those not weighed averaged 300,87 cm. (India) and 311,15 cm. (Nepal).
Ad d - Without 7 gorged tigers (about as long as non-gorged tigers), the average was 205,30 kg.
Ad e - The heaviest tiger was estimated.
If all regions would be counted as one and we would forget about then and now, the average would be 203,00 kg. for a wild adult male. The average length 'between pegs' would range between 280-295 cm. roughly.
Today's tigers seem a bit (about 10 cm.) longer and much (about 25 kg.) heavier than a century ago. However. One has to remember that the samples of a century ago were more reliable.
2 - Compared to a human
a - About 195 kg. (captive tiger 'Taj', Dreamworld Australia):
*This image is copyright of its original author
b - About 200 kg. (captive tiger 'Sultan', Dreamworld Australia):
*This image is copyright of its original author
3 - Conclusions
At times, debates about the size of tigers erupt. It seems that any report about wild male tigers not exceeding at least 420 pounds isn't taken very seriously.
Between 1860-1930, the average of wild males in India ranged between 182-209 kg. The average of 4 regions was 194,85 kg. (429 pounds). Today's tigers are about 4 inches longer and significantly heavier (219,32 kg. or 484 pounds), but one has to remember less than 15 male tigers were measured and weighed.
Some time ago, when I tried to find out more on those tigers Hewett wasn't able to weigh, I concluded a cm. in total length corresponded to about 7 pounds in adult males. If today's tigers really average 484 pounds, the length 'between pegs', if they would be similar in proportion, wouldn't be 280-282 cm., like a century ago, but 288-290 cm. (55 pounds divided by 7 is about 8 cm.) They would be more robust when they, at about 480 pounds, would still average 9.3 'between pegs' in total length.
The photographs were added to show you that a male tiger of 180-200 kg. (400-440 pounds), compared to a good-sized human, is a large animal. Now try to imagine a 220 kg. (485 pounds) tiger of similar proportions. Than one of 272,16 kg. (600 pounds). Wild tigers of that weight are still around in some parts of India and Nepal, but they have to be considered as exceptional.
The averages in this post are without the Naga Hills and the Sunderbans. Sunderban male tigers, although genetically similar to those in central India, are about half the weight of an adult male in central India. The conditions in the Sunderbans are very poor, much more so than we assumed. Hunger, most probably, is the reason tigers take what they can.
The Naga Hills tigers, at 8.7 'between pegs' in total length, compare to those in Terengganu half a century ago (also 8.7 'between pegs'). Two males were 330 (149,69 kg.) and 344 (156,04 kg.) pounds. Tigers in the extreme east of Assam could belong to P.t. corbetti, as the Naga Hills (part of a series of Hills) seem to be a divide in more than one way.
RE: ON THE EDGE OF EXTINCTION - A - TIGERS (Panthera tigris) - Kingtheropod - 04-11-2015
(04-11-2015, 07:15 AM)'peter' Wrote: THE SIZE OF MALE INDIAN TIGERS
1 - Length and weight per region
a - 291,55 cm. - 182,30 kg. - n=09 (curves, central-southwest India, before 1879)
b - 281,94 cm. - 190,51 kg. - n=42 (pegs, central India, before 1930)
c - 291,96 cm. - 197,63 kg. - n=18 (curves, northwest India, 1909-1912)
d - 295,46 cm. - 208,96 kg. - n=52 (curves, northeast India, 1890-1908)
e - 301,00 cm. - 221,36 kg. - n=07 (pegs, Nepal, 2 measured and 7 weighed, 1975-1976)
f - 298,00 cm. - 217,27 kg. - n=03 (pegs, southwest India, before 1993)
Ad c - Hewett's sample had some young adults. Those not weighed averaged 300,87 cm. (India) and 311,15 cm. (Nepal).
Ad d - Without 7 gorged tigers (about as long as non-gorged tigers), the average was 205,30 kg.
Ad e - The heaviest tiger was estimated.
If all regions would be counted as one and we would forget about then and now, the average would be 203,00 kg. for a wild adult male. The average length 'between pegs' would range between 280-295 cm. roughly.
Today's tigers seem a bit (about 10 cm.) longer and much (about 25 kg.) heavier than a century ago. However. One has to remember that the samples of a century ago were more reliable.
2 - Compared to a human
a - About 195 kg. (captive tiger 'Taj', Dreamworld Australia):
*This image is copyright of its original author
b - About 200 kg. (captive tiger 'Sultan', Dreamworld Australia):
*This image is copyright of its original author
3 - Conclusions
At times, debates about the size of tigers erupt. It seems that any report about wild male tigers not exceeding at least 420 pounds isn't taken very seriously.
Between 1860-1930, the average of wild males in India ranged between 182-209 kg. The average of 4 regions was 194,85 kg. (429 pounds). Today's tigers are about 4 inches longer and significantly heavier (219,32 kg. or 484 pounds), but one has to remember less than 15 male tigers were measured and weighed.
Some time ago, when I tried to find out more on those tigers Hewett wasn't able to weigh, I concluded a cm. in total length corresponded to about 7 pounds in adult males. If today's tigers really average 484 pounds, the length 'between pegs', if they would be similar in proportion, wouldn't be 280-282 cm., like a century ago, but 288-290 cm. (55 pounds divided by 7 is about 8 cm.) They would be more robust when they, at about 480 pounds, would still average 9.3 'between pegs' in total length.
The photographs were added to show you that a male tiger of 180-200 kg. (400-440 pounds), compared to a good-sized human, is a large animal. Now try to imagine a 220 kg. (485 pounds) tiger of similar proportions. Than one of 272,16 kg. (600 pounds). Wild tigers of that weight are still around in some parts of India and Nepal, but they have to be considered as exceptional.
The averages in this post are without the Naga Hills and the Sunderbans. Sunderban male tigers, although genetically similar to those in central India, are about half the weight of an adult male in central India. The conditions in the Sunderbans are very poor, much more so than we assumed. Hunger, most probably, is the reason tigers take what they can.
The Naga Hills tigers, at 8.7 'between pegs' in total length, compare to those in Terengganu half a century ago (also 8.7 'between pegs'). Two males were 330 (149,69 kg.) and 344 (156,04 kg.) pounds. Tigers in the extreme east of Assam could belong to P.t. corbetti, as the Naga Hills (part of a series of Hills) seem to be a divide in more than one way.
Hello peter, I remember posting this email on yuku, but not here.
These are the weights of all the Dream world tigers. From James Scott personnel communication Guest Services Supervisor...
*This image is copyright of its original author
"Dear Matthew,
Thank you for taking the time to contact us. Feedback from our guests is both important and appreciated. We love our Tigers here at Dreamworld and are always happy to help raise awareness and conservation of the tigers. I’ve spoken to our staff at Tiger Island and they have given me the following information:
The weights of the cats are :
Sultan 205 kilos
Rama 180 Kilos
Taj was 190 kilos
Sita 150 Kilos
Our newest tiger, Nika, is just under 200 kilos.
I regret to inform you that our beloved Taj has passed away. He was a favourite of many of our guests and our staff here at Dreamworld. Although this is a sad time, we can celebrate a life, long-lived. Taj, like his brothers Sultan and Rama and sister Sita, touched many hearts and inspired many people to achieve much for the conservation of their species, potentially saving tigers in the wild. Through his Tiger Island photos, morning walks with guests, and his involvement in the Tiger Show, Taj has contributed significantly to support conservation teams in Sumatra and Russian who provide education programs and anti-poaching patrols that stop the Tiger from becoming extinct. I hope you find this information helpful.
Kind Regards,
James Scott"
RE: ON THE EDGE OF EXTINCTION - A - TIGERS (Panthera tigris) - peter - 04-11-2015
THE DREAMWORLD TIGERS
Thanks Pod. The intention was to show how large a male tiger in good shape ranging between 180-200 kg. (or just over) really is compared to a human. The Duisburg Zoo male Amur tiger, at 320 cm. 'between pegs' and 280-300 kg., was just about as large as they come.
When I prepared the post on the Dreamworld tigers, I saw the video below. It was from 2010, when the male Indian tigers mentioned in your post were well past their prime. All were still in good shape and capable of things most zoo tigers wouldn't, I think:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z20z2ujrixQ
The heaviest Indian female they have at the moment, according to their site, is from Poland. She's a hefty 160 kg. The Sumatran tigers, not hand-reared, are not used for shows. The females are 70 kg., whereas the male is 110 kg.
RE: ON THE EDGE OF EXTINCTION - A - TIGERS (Panthera tigris) - Roflcopters - 04-12-2015
Pod and Peter, have you guys included the weight of Raja the deceased male from Lions Tigers and Bears rescue?
Raja
Bengal Tiger – Born: 9/5/1996 – Weight: 550 lbs
Died October 7, 2013
Source:
http://lionstigersandbears.org/meet-our-animals/raja
RE: ON THE EDGE OF EXTINCTION - A - TIGERS (Panthera tigris) - Kingtheropod - 04-13-2015
(04-12-2015, 11:58 PM)'Roflcopters' Wrote: Pod and Peter, have you guys included the weight of Raja the deceased male from Lions Tigers and Bears rescue?
Raja
Bengal Tiger – Born: 9/5/1996 – Weight: 550 lbs
Died October 7, 2013
Source:
http://lionstigersandbears.org/meet-our-animals/raja
No I have not. Can you contact the rescue and ask them if they have actually weighed there tigers or are they just estimates? Ask if they can give the weights of all there tigers in the email if possible.
RE: ON THE EDGE OF EXTINCTION - A - TIGERS (Panthera tigris) - Kingtheropod - 04-13-2015
Mataki tags trip report:
~~India trip 2014
Friday
Arrived Delhi 12:30 with colleague Marcus Rowcliffe who will be working on camera trapping monitoring method (REM). Taxi for trip to Dehradun waiting but we arrived latter due to delay with flight. Good trip but slow and we are both tired.
9 hrs. later, Late meal at Wildlife Institute of India (WII) – Dahl and yogurt and roti lovely.To do:
1) Sort out collar attachments and access to devices prior to putting them on tigers
2) Assemble batteries and Flash old devices
3) Write talk for WII seminarPlanning courses Matakitags14
Planning courses prior to heading off to KhanaSaturday
Day 2:
Full day! Up at 8:30 thought I’d adjusted well to the time zone but now writing this a 2:00am (India time and still tired!)Marcus and students went through early week schedule which includes talks Monday. Training for REM and Mataki, Monday – Tuesday.
We received the Mataki tags Dr Jhala received from us earlier, and they were tested and all worked except tag 6. Need to reformat.
Ujwall on of Dr Jhala’s students has helped to solder batteries. First of the casings were mounted on the collar. Seems to work and are strong.We tested the Gopro as for field use. Lots of testing to do tomorrow. We plan to head to Delhi Wednesday and take a train to Kanha next day.
Sunday
Attended celebration of India Republic.Tag.Matakitags14
Mataki collar attachment and casingLearning how to remotely use GOPRO and testing battery life. Runs for about 12hrs on remote – possibly use for remote filming.Tag set up and made preparations for talk. Went to bed at 1:00 am but slept well!Worked with PhD student Ayan on Mataki tags. He’s extremely helpful and we are both learning the set up needed. All tag are programmed and being charged. First attempt to attach tags to tiger collars.Mataki collar attachment and casing – first attempt but due to concerns about the casing cracking and causing abrasion, we eventually just tapped the tags with medical tape to the collar.
Monday
Rem training. Marcus working like a fiend. Talks on scaling and ecology and Marcus’ elephant study.More Mataki tag testing. We are learning about the limitations with data download. 1/5 the real time download rate.
Tuesday
Day 5: Mataki tag demo with loads of questions and a lot of interest from WII Staff and students. REM field setup day.Mataki demo, had some problems but am learning more about them all the time. Managed to remote (forcedl download) procedure, which involve more advance control of the devices. Heading too Kanha tomorrow!
Wednesday
OvernighttrainMataitags14
Overnight train. 20 hrs to Jabalpur
Day 6: Early morning departure Dehradun to Delhi. Caught overnight train 20 hrs to JabalpurJhala and team discussing research plans in Kanha. We also used the trip to discuss with students about their PhD plans – a very interesting time! The students here have exciting projects.
Thursday
Arrived Jabalpur 10;00ish drive to kanha expected to be about 5 hrs. Visited Mandala, nearest town to Kanha NP forest park headquarters then WWF headquarters.
Friday
6:30 start but actual start delayed a bit. Jhala and team worked late to get collars ready and organizing last minute permissions.
During the late morning, Marcus and camera trap team set up the first REM cameras in India! Saw, gaur and swamp deer today for the first time!
IndiantigerC.Carbone2104
Indian tiger © C CarboneSaturdayTiger capture set up, but tigers aren’t located. Seemingly impossible logistic with elephant needing to be in place, delays with locating wide ranging and cryptic animals like tigers over large areas. We saw a 2 yr-old male tiger in evening!! Photographed! Saw jungle cat!
*This image is copyright of its original author
Sunday
Day 10: we collected photo from cameratraps based at tiger routes all trail based. Practiced with Mataki tags, had a go with the dart gun (on a target!) – it was impressively accurate!
Monday
7 or so tiger photos and two bear photos noticeable absence of herbivores! On route back we had a tremendous encounter with a young male tiger who walked towards the vehicle without stopping. Our second tiger encounter on the trip. Young male and not at all shy! We reversed off the road, he headed off on a side trail.TaggedtigerMatakitags14
Tigress with collar attached.
*This image is copyright of its original author
Finally, we got the call that they’d darted a tigress (approximately 130kg) we went off to join the dart team and to set up the Mataki tags one deployed. Tag sent a remote signal then the signal was lost after release! We plan to find her again tonight.Managed to get sick, possibly train food… feeling pretty rough but very excited!!The small white bump on the left is contains the Mataki tag. The rest is the original collar. TuesdayLate start – Marcus left with REM team. I stayed and tested tags for deployment. Waiting on the team to target another tiger.
Also found the collared tigress and managed to briefly found her and managed via elephant back, to download data, although transmission was aborted after sometime. Transmission rates are slow given the quantity of data we are extracting. RadiotrackingKanhaMatakitags14
Downloading dataChris heading off to follow the tigress with computer for downloading Mataki tag data.WednesdayLate start to get next tiger capture set up.Time at kanha headquarters. Showed Dr Jhala the downloaded data from the tigress. Reset the tag, (F_reset) near 5:00pm.
Thursday
Day 13: went to find and track the tigress. We found her usual resting area but was called back for another capture. Large resident male capture had been found and was in place. He was darted and weighed 197kg.
*This image is copyright of its original author
Collar was attached and the devices left in the with Dr Jhala’s staff. Unfortunately we had to catch plan that evening!Off drive to Nagpur airport, and then to Delhi! Flying out the next morning.HealthcheckMatakitags14
Dr Jhala conducting health check on the tiger prior to release. FridayLondon.
http://www.21stcenturytiger.org/2014/07/10/mataki-tags-trip-report/
http://www.21stcenturytiger.org/tiger-conservation/tiger-projects-india/mataki-tags/
RE: ON THE EDGE OF EXTINCTION - A - TIGERS (Panthera tigris) - peter - 04-13-2015
Good find, Pod. The male tiger darted and weighed will be used for the table on central India. The large canines suggest a male in his prime.
My guess is there are more data about wild Indian tigers. As they have not been published, the question is which organisation is collecting field data. Sanjay, would you be able to find out a bit more?
RE: ON THE EDGE OF EXTINCTION - A - TIGERS (Panthera tigris) - peter - 04-13-2015
THE MALAYAN TIGER - Part A
1 - INTRODUCTION
This subspecies is an enigma. I know P.t. jacksoni inhabits the southern tip of Malaysia (Johore), but I have no idea about the limit of its distribution. The only thing I know is those who hunted in different parts of Malaysia a century ago agreed that Perak tigers are different from those in the south.
With 'different', I mean generally larger and more robust. In the first decades of the last century, not one male tiger shot in the southern part of Malaysia exceeded 8.8 'between pegs' (264,16 cm.). But the Sultan of Johore, at the turn of the 19th and the 20th century, shot males well exceeding 9.0 (274,32 cm.). His longest, according to Locke ('The Tigers of Terengganu', 1954), was 9.8 (294,64 cm.) 'between pegs'. Were tigers of this size more or less common in those days, was the Sultan lucky or did tigers in the southern part of Malaysia change in half a century only?
I don't know. I do know, however, that the tigers shot by the Sultan of Johore were anything but long and lanky. Locky saw his longest tiger in the trophy room. He wrote the tiger was big in all respects. Pocock ('Tigers', JBNHS, 1929) referred to a Johore skull with a greatest total length of 14,5 inches (368,30 mm.). My guess is this was the skull of the longest tiger shot by the Sultan of Johore.
There are many questions. In order to find out a bit more on Malayan tigers, I will post everything I have in the next posts. This one starts with a map.
2 - MAP
*This image is copyright of its original author
Johore, at the southern tip, is just north of Singapore. A century ago, tigers were seen quite often very close to Singapore. I have one photograph of a tiger shot just north of Singapore:
*This image is copyright of its original author
This tiger, an adult male, could be typical for P.t. jacksoni: very black, quite wide (doubled) stripes, about 8 feet 'between pegs' in length and 300 pounds or thereabout.
3 - HISTORY OF MALAYAN TIGERS
Malaysia seems to be a crossroads, with three subspecies close to each other. There's P.t. sumatrae in Sumatra just west of Malaysia, there is P.t. jacksoni at the southern tip of the peninsula and there's P.t. corbetti a bit further north.
They didn't come from the same direction. Sunda Shelf tigers colonized Sumatra from the southheast (Java) well before the Holocene (10 000 years ago) started, whereas corbetti and jacksoni colonized Malaysia from the north, also probably well before the Holocene started.
After tigers had colonized Malaysia from the north, my guess is the entrance (the Isthmus of Kra) was inundated. This resulted in the isolation of tigers who had already reached the southern part of the peninsula. I don't know how long they were isolated, but it must have been long enough to evolve into a different tiger.
When the sea level dropped and tigers again entered Malaysia from the north through the Isthmus of Kra, they mixed to an extent with Malayan tigers. The gene exchange, however, must have been limited, as those in the extreme south (P.t. jacksoni), according to recent research (see post 505), are different from those a bit further north (P.t. corbetti).
RE: ON THE EDGE OF EXTINCTION - A - TIGERS (Panthera tigris) - Roflcopters - 04-13-2015
Excellent find King, Dr.Jhala seems to be changing the game platform for all of us with his recent work. [img]images/smilies/tongue.gif[/img]
RE: ON THE EDGE OF EXTINCTION - A - TIGERS (Panthera tigris) - Kingtheropod - 04-13-2015
(04-13-2015, 06:26 AM)'Roflcopters' Wrote: Excellent find King, Dr.Jhala seems to be changing the game platform for all of us with his recent work. [img]images/smilies/tongue.gif[/img]
Indeed. The person that weighed the two tigers (one 197 kg, one 130 kg) was the same one you contacted that said tigers in his experience weigh 240 kg (male), and 160 kg (female) respectively. So he must have weighed tigers even bigger then this before.
http://wildfact.com/forum/topic-b2-and-other-great-tiger-pics-from-india?pid=9820#pid9820
RE: ON THE EDGE OF EXTINCTION - A - TIGERS (Panthera tigris) - GuateGojira - 04-13-2015
To be sincere, I think that the email of Dr Jhala is not giving "average" figures but "maximum" figures known by him. After all, I heavily doubt that modern Indian lions average 180 kg or male tigers average 240 kg (the same for females). For me, all the figures look like maximum figures.
Other important thing, remember that some tigers were weighed in Kanha? Two of them were large adult males, among them the famous Konda (T-7). It is possible that this weight of 240 kg (unbaited) could belong to this famous male (T-7), or to the other male captured (Punchkatta - T-6)?
If Dr Jhala could clarified this, it would be great. [img]images/smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]
RE: ON THE EDGE OF EXTINCTION - A - TIGERS (Panthera tigris) - Kingtheropod - 04-13-2015
(04-13-2015, 08:15 AM)'GuateGojira' Wrote: To be sincere, I think that the email of Dr Jhala is not giving "average" figures but "maximum" figures known by him. After all, I heavily doubt that modern Indian lions average 180 kg or male tigers average 240 kg (the same for females). For me, all the figures look like maximum figures.
Other important thing, remember that some tigers were weighed in Kanha? Two of them were large adult males, among them the famous Konda (T-7). It is possible that this weight of 240 kg (unbaited) could belong to this famous male (T-7), or to the other male captured (Punchkatta - T-6)?
If Dr Jhala could clarified this, it would be great.
*This image is copyright of its original author
RE: ON THE EDGE OF EXTINCTION - A - TIGERS (Panthera tigris) - Kingtheropod - 04-13-2015
Recap. The figure of Dr. Bilal Habib of 185 kg is not an actual average of individuals, but a guesstimated average.
The figure of 220 kg is however of an actual animal(s)
see above
