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+--- Thread: ON THE EDGE OF EXTINCTION - A - THE TIGER (Panthera tigris) (/topic-on-the-edge-of-extinction-a-the-tiger-panthera-tigris)
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RE: ON THE EDGE OF EXTINCTION - A - TIGERS (Panthera tigris) - Pckts - 02-06-2015
(02-06-2015, 08:07 AM)'GrizzlyClaws' Wrote: Near the insertion part of the canine, there is always a curvature.
*This image is copyright of its original author
I'll take a picture of the Tiger tooth I bought in Thailand and post it when I get a chance. It's at home but it looks very similar to this. I would assume its Indochinese but I can't be absolutely positive.
RE: ON THE EDGE OF EXTINCTION - A - TIGERS (Panthera tigris) - GrizzlyClaws - 02-07-2015
(02-06-2015, 10:39 PM)'Pckts' Wrote:(02-06-2015, 08:07 AM)'GrizzlyClaws' Wrote: Near the insertion part of the canine, there is always a curvature.
*This image is copyright of its original author
I'll take a picture of the Tiger tooth I bought in Thailand and post it when I get a chance. It's at home but it looks very similar to this. I would assume its Indochinese but I can't be absolutely positive.
Yep, the canine of the South Chinese tiger and Indochinese tiger are very similar to each other, while the Amur tiger canine is also pretty close.
However, the Bengal tiger canine seems to have developed its own unique characteristics, and the island tigers also follow this trend.
The lion canine is a completely different story. Thus, it cannot be mistaken with the tiger canine.
Except the size different, just check how similar between the Amur canine and the Chinese/Indochinese canine.
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
RE: ON THE EDGE OF EXTINCTION - A - TIGERS (Panthera tigris) - peter - 02-08-2015
OUR TIGERS - a documentary about rewilding two tigresses in the heart of Wild Sweden
After seeing the Swedish documentary recently posted by Pantherinae on another thread, I remembered a documentary by the same Swedish filmmaker I saw on the Dutch television a long time ago, called 'Our Tigers'.
I only found this very short clip, as the film he and his wife made isn't on the internet. A pity. Although it was a film about two captive Indian tigresses raised to adulthood in Sweden, it possibly was the most informing documentary on tigers I saw. And I saw many. The reason is they saw and documented nearly everything of interest.
When the tigresses were nearly adult, their contact in India told them the plan to rewild them in India had been aborted. A pity, as they were trained to be independant, wild tigresses. Both tigresses were then sent to a Swedish zoo. The last part of the (very long) documentary is about the introduction of the tigresses in the zoo.
In the zoo, they faced an older tigress with cubs. She didn't accept them and told them. Anyone interested in what walking next to each other really means, should try to get his hands on the documentary. Same for the interpretation of fights. Jan Lindblad and his wife Pia, when the tigresses were sent to the Swedish zoo, had become true experts on tiger behaviour. They knew everything about the real meaning of interaction.
The tigresses were close to or just over 300 pounds empty when they were sent to the zoo (they were weighed). The older tigress in the zoo was both longer and taller, but not as robust. She fought well, but one of the two tigresses was able to answer all questions asked.
What was the effect of the training they had? Well, for one thing, their paws were larger and stronger than those of the adult male, who was about 200 kg. (just before they were introduced, he was a trifle over that mark). Both tigresses also were very powerful animals, able to defend themselves against more than one adult. In the end, this made a difference. The difference between wild and captive in tigers, like I said before, is staggering. One is a fit athlete, whereas the other often is a misfit, completely out of place. The zoo male, by the way, tried to stop the fights between his female and the new tigresses nearly every time. The reason is they were intense fights.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rkau8Kt5IJ4
The athmoshere in the clip is as fascinating as I remembered. Also remember both tigresses, even when they were adult, never showed the remotest sign of fear or protest against their adopted 'parents'. I'm not saying everything you hear and read about captive tigers (or other big cats, for that matter) is close to garbage, but remember that those who have experience with captive big cats will never get as close to them as the Lindblads did for over three years (I only know of two others). The Lindblads were the only humans they saw. What I remember is the tigresses were intelligent, eager learners and very close to their parents. As close as humans can get to each other. And then some. In a different way, but as close for sure.
I think I know where they were raised to adulthood. I visited a place not that far away for many years. It had at least one bear and a wolf family. I know they visited us. Although we were treated with great respect, they didn't survive humans in the end. The bear was shot and all wolves (male, female and ciubs), although they featured in a BBC-documentary, were killed as well. A great pity. Happened in the eighties of the last century.
Anyhow. Enjoy the minute and a half.
RE: ON THE EDGE OF EXTINCTION - A - TIGERS (Panthera tigris) - brotherbear - 02-08-2015
~First posted by Ursus arctos middendorffi ( the poster )... A brown bear would be much better able to gain dominant positions and exhaust the other animal over time. This is the general strategy they do when fighting each other (with the end result typically being a tired bear backing down or outright fleeing) as well as often when killing other animals; if unable to cause serious injuries they seem to simply exhaust it through grappling to the point it is no longer able to defend itself, and then slowly kill it. This can be seen in a few clips on youtube, such as "grizzly eats moose alive", "brown bear predation of wild boar (Russia)", and it looks like this was the case in "bear killing bear", a slideshow of a bear killing another one of similar size-note that it moved itself to the back of the other animal where it couldn't effectively fight back. Similar to what you see in this video. In these cases a bear was able to keep itself relatively free of injuries while exhausting the other animal to the point that it could be safely (albeit ineffectively) killed through their great wrestling/grappling ability.
Some autopsies however have revealed more effective kills.
~The Grizzly Almanac by Robert H. Busch. Males will also fight with other males over females, and many old male grizzlies have deep scars on their muzzles from such encounters. When challenging another male, grizzlies often use what has been termed a "cowboy walk," in which they walk on stiff bowlegs toward each other with lowered head and angry intentions. The posing often deters a fight before it begins, but when an actual tussle occurs, serious injuries can occur.
Occasionally, the fights are fatal. The autopsy of one such unfortunate bear, who obviously lost in his fight, revealed 89 puncture wounds, a wide hole in the chest, broken ribs, a broken shoulder, a broken nose, a dislocated neck, and a broken skull. Those males who survive such battles pass on their genes to the next generation.
RE: ON THE EDGE OF EXTINCTION - A - TIGERS (Panthera tigris) - peter - 02-09-2015
A - URSUS ARCTOS MIDDENDORFFI
I discussed with Ursus arctos middendorffi about tigers and bears in different threads in AVA. A few years ago, he visited Amsterdam. He was my guest for some days and we again talked tigers and bears. Very interesting, it was. He now is a mod at the Carnivora forum and he's doing a great job.
There's no question the points he made (referring to the quotes you posted) are sound. There also is no question bears top big cats in the heavyweight division, for the simple reason not one of the big cats operates in that division. The issues we discussed was interactions in the intermediate division and, in particular, hypothetical advantages and disadvantages. We did the hypotheticals more often, because Russian authorities already discussed the classified results in the intermediate divisions. I posted the outcome of their debate in this thread. I also posted about Krechmar.
B - FORUMS, DEBATES AND HYPOTHETICALS
When tigers and bears are debated in a forum, most scenarios relate to males operating in the intermediate division (400-500 pounds). The outcome of most debates was more or less underlined by reality. For example. It is known that there is not that much information on male Amur tigers and male Ussuri bears in Wild Russia. They don't avoid each other, but it's more than likely they avoid an all-out. The reason is they, most probably, are as unsure as we are.
The point many agreed on was bears probably have an advantage with increasing weight, even at weight parity. The reason is prime males are different animals from younger males. They often have more muscle mass in area targeted by a tiger (rump and neck) and also have a slightly longer and, especially, wider and more massive skull.
Bears live longer than tigers. Males are able to reproduce at 4-5 years of age, but most authorities consider them adult when they reach 8-9. Those between 10-20 are considered prime animals. When they reach 8 or so, most males of 200 kg. and over wouldn't be bothered by tigers, I think. That doesn't mean they would confront a healthy male Amur tiger at every opportunity. My guess is both probably try to avoid conflict.
So far so good. The problem is nature is unpredictable. A male bear could lose weight as a result of a crop failure, he could lose fitness as a result of a disease and he could have had a bad winter. Maybe he was injured in a fight with another male bear. Let's suppose it's the other way round for a male tiger at the time they meet. Also suppose the male bear is desperate. In that scenario, chances are the bear would contest a kill the male tiger made. What happens next is anybody's guess. Authorities agree that most males killed in a fight (both species) are the unhealthy, the desperate, the young or the old. Males, to be sure, seldom perish in fights. Most animals killed are young or desperate in those cases I know, the winner usually had a significant advantage.
The remarks on bears suffering from a crop failure, to be sure, do not belong in hypotheticals. In some Russian regions, hundreds of bears perished as a result of a crop failure. Many of those unable to hibernate attacked, killed and ate other bears. When they were finished, they turned to cattle and man. Many had to be shot because they had become too dangerous. It was a disaster.
C - THERE'S BEARS AND BEARS
When bears and tigers are discussed in a forum, those participating refer to hypothetical scenarios between animals of near-similar size and weight (males ranging between 400-500 pounds and those closer to 450 pounds in particular). Big cats don't come much larger than Amur tigers, but there are brown bear subspecies that outclass Ursus arctos lasiotus, not a small animal by any standard, by quite a margin. Furthermore, bears often show a considerable amount of individual variation. Some males easily reach 450 pounds in regions known for small bears and in regions known for large animals males of 800 pounds and well over are frequently seen.
There's big and bigger. In some coastal subspecies, males average 700 pounds and over. Bears of that size are very different animals than those seen in eastern Russia. I would even say they almost are a different species. The photographs below are from AVA and the Shaggy God Forum. Most of those from the Shaggy God forum were posted by Warsaw, Grahh and Sarus.
1 - North-America (Alaska):
*This image is copyright of its original author
2 - North-America (Alaska):
*This image is copyright of its original author
3 - North-America (same region):
*This image is copyright of its original author
4 - North-America (captive brown bear):
*This image is copyright of its original author
My favorites are polar bears, because they, like big cats, are true carnivores. In spite of the difficulties they face, some males easily exceed 1000 pounds. Below, to finish the post, a few pictures (also from the Shaggy God forum):
5 - This male was 933 pounds (423,20 kg.). Large, but in some regions the average for adult males is over that weight:
*This image is copyright of its original author
6 - This male, shot near Kotzebue, probably was the largest killed. There are many rumours on his weight, but it seems unlikely he, as many claimed, was more than double the weight of the male shown in -5-:
*This image is copyright of its original author
7 - I've no clue as to the weight of this male, but large he is:
*This image is copyright of its original author
D - PANTHERA TIGRIS ALTAICA AND URSUS ARCTOS LASIOTUS
The post is closed with a nice picture posted by poster Sarus in the Shaggy God forum:
8 - Big tiger, small bear:
*This image is copyright of its original author
9 - Small tigress, big brown bear, Himalayan black bear and wild boar:
*This image is copyright of its original author
RE: ON THE EDGE OF EXTINCTION - A - TIGERS (Panthera tigris) - Wanderfalke - 02-09-2015
(02-08-2015, 08:08 AM)'peter' Wrote: OUR TIGERS - a documentary about rewilding two tigresses in the heart of Wild Sweden
After seeing the Swedish documentary recently posted by Pantherinae on another thread, I remembered a documentary by the same Swedish filmmaker I saw on the Dutch television a long time ago, called 'Our Tigers'.
I only found this very short clip, as the film he and his wife made isn't on the internet. A pity. Although it was a film about two captive Indian tigresses raised to adulthood in Sweden, it possibly was the most informing documentary on tigers I saw. And I saw many. The reason is they saw and documented nearly everything of interest.
When the tigresses were nearly adult, their contact in India told them the plan to rewild them in India had been aborted. A pity, as they were trained to be independant, wild tigresses. Both tigresses were then sent to a Swedish zoo. The last part of the (very long) documentary is about the introduction of the tigresses in the zoo.
In the zoo, they faced an older tigress with cubs. She didn't accept them and told them. Anyone interested in what walking next to each other really means, should try to get his hands on the documentary. Same for the interpretation of fights. Jan Lindblad and his wife Pia, when the tigresses were sent to the Swedish zoo, had become true experts on tiger behaviour. They knew everything about the real meaning of interaction.
The tigresses were close to or just over 300 pounds empty when they were sent to the zoo (they were weighed). The older tigress in the zoo was both longer and taller, but not as robust. She fought well, but one of the two tigresses was able to answer all questions asked.
What was the effect of the training they had? Well, for one thing, their paws were larger and stronger than those of the adult male, who was about 200 kg. (just before they were introduced, he was a trifle over that mark). Both tigresses also were very powerful animals, able to defend themselves against more than one adult. In the end, this made a difference. The difference between wild and captive in tigers, like I said before, is staggering. One is a fit athlete, whereas the other often is a misfit, completely out of place. The zoo male, by the way, tried to stop the fights between his female and the new tigresses nearly every time. The reason is they were intense fights.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rkau8Kt5IJ4
The athmoshere in the clip is as fascinating as I remembered. Also remember both tigresses, even when they were adult, never showed the remotest sign of fear or protest against their adopted 'parents'. I'm not saying everything you hear and read about captive tigers (or other big cats, for that matter) is close to garbage, but remember that those who have experience with captive big cats will never get as close to them as the Lindblads did for over three years (I only know of two others). The Lindblads were the only humans they saw. What I remember is the tigresses were intelligent, eager learners and very close to their parents. As close as humans can get to each other. And then some. In a different way, but as close for sure.
I think I know where they were raised to adulthood. I visited a place not that far away for many years. It had at least one bear and a wolf family. I know they visited us. Although we were treated with great respect, they didn't survive humans in the end. The bear was shot and all wolves (male, female and ciubs), although they featured in a BBC-documentary, were killed as well. A great pity. Happened in the eighties of the last century.
Anyhow. Enjoy the minute and a half.
I would sell my own grandmother to get this unique documentary. I remember you talking about this documentary, when we met in Stuttgart to measure the skulls.
Here is another short clip.
I´d encourage anyone to inform others here, if somebody of us finds it on the internet or elsewhere. Most certainly one of the most unique tiger documentaries, that people with a genuine interest in tigers can watch
RE: ON THE EDGE OF EXTINCTION - A - TIGERS (Panthera tigris) - peter - 02-09-2015
Selling your grandmother sounds promising, but the documentary just isn't on the net. Not yet. However. I have two of the three parts on video. I want to give 'm to someone able to transfer the images. I'll ask him to bring it to the net when he is done.
The work we did in the Staatliches Museum für Naturkunde Stuttgart was tough, but rewarding. Dr. Mörike, as you know, retired just after I was done. Although I knew, I sent her the result of the work we did anyhow. She was kind enough to sent me a lot of remarks I could use. This year, I want to visit the Budapest Natural History Museum and the museum in Bonn. I might visit Stuttgart in late summer, when I want to see the friend you met some years ago. Music, that is.
Later, I want to visit the Natural History Museum of Münich. You can come if you have time. There is, by the way, a guy in Nürnberg who knows more about big cats than most of us. He's the one who sent 'The Tiger's Claw' to me. He's not involved in forums, but knows his business. I'll tell him about you if you don't mind.
A few weeks ago, I bought a German book called 'Dompteur und Bestie' (H. Dembeck, 1957). It has a number of stories about circus life in first decades of the last century. In those days, accidents were not uncommon. They were part of life. The stories on big cats, monkeys, the great apes, reptiles, elephants, dogs, camels, rhinos, intelligence (he wrote all animals were intelligent) and close bonds are very interesting. Bears, like I said before, were considered more dangerous than other animals. They fought each other, big cats and, at times, big herbivores. And then there is the story on the chimp and the wrestler in Japan.
The chimp, at 150 pounds, was told to wrestle a 220-pound professional wrestler from Japan who also had jiu-jitsu in his bag. In a friendly way, of course, his trainer said. The Japanese fighter (the circus was in Japan) was the first to bet on himself. He was to regret it. The chimp, by the way, had his own room in the wagon of his trainer. No chains, I mean. He was free to do as he pleased. He said he wanted a woman and a smoke every day. He got both.
Animal activists all but finished the circus over here. In the future, there will be no more books on circus animals. From now on, animals will be animals and humans will be humans. An era has been closed because 'wild' animals were 'abused' and rules were broken. Yes, when humans are involved, anything is possible and it usually starts with broken rules and abuse. On the street, at school, at work, in politics, in sports and everywhere else too. This is part of what we are.
The circus, I think, was a bit different. Over the years, I met many people working for circuses. The big, the small, the weird, the feeble, the strong and all the others. I don't think I ever saw a place I liked more. Most of those involved in animals in some way were very animal-like in that they were friendy, open-minded, inviting, forgiving, fitter and way more honest than others. The only exception was a very attractive lady performing with lions. But she didn't belong there and the others avoided her.
It is, in my opinion, a great shame that the vindictive, the crual and the dishonest (I worked with activists for some time when I was a volonteer in a rescue centre and noticed time and again many were driven by emotions they didn't understand) elected their opposites to project their frustrations and finish them.
I've seen trainers cry when they realized their animals had to be destroyed as a result of the decisions taken. And no doubt many hundreds were. I mean, who wants a 15-year old male tiger with a temper, a 24-year old bear only accepting his trainer or a horse who fought big cats and bears? Most zoos were not interested. They want white lions, white tigers, white elephants, white seals, white gorillas and white chimps. Those circus animals accepted by zoos faced a very different environment in that they no longer had the opportunity to interact with humans and other animals.
And then there are the 'visitors'.
One day, in a big zoo in a wealthy country, I was taken to a room that had objects found in 'food' thrown to the animals of the zoo. Many objects were found by keepers, but not every time. I noticed that many of those interested in zoos do not know that zoo animals often get hurt by objects intended to do as much damage as possible. I won't try to describe what I saw, as you would never forgive me. It was the harvest of one week only.
Anyhow. The book is very cheap (no shipping costs for you) and you won't regret it. My advice is to buy it and post a few stories in the section on captive animals when you can. They will be appreciated by many.
How are you doing? Send me a pm.
RE: ON THE EDGE OF EXTINCTION - A - TIGERS (Panthera tigris) - brotherbear - 02-09-2015
Peter, I wish to thank you for post 352 which I found to be very informative. I found nothing there that I disagree with. As for poster Ursus arctos middendorffi, I highly respect him and always appreciated his input, even though much of it was over my head. Just curious, are both Ursus and yourself college professors?
RE: ON THE EDGE OF EXTINCTION - A - TIGERS (Panthera tigris) - Wanderfalke - 02-09-2015
@peter
As always a pleasure to read you thoughts. Right know I´m just checking new posts here. I have to go. Next appointment. So no real response regarding your post. Just wanted to let you know, that I´ve taken my time to read you text. Actual response will come, when I can sit down calmly and take my time.
I remember you talking about transferring the documentary on a different media. As an agnostic, I´m going to make an exception and pray to god, that it works out rather sooner than later ^^ ;-) Would be amazing.
I was thinking about contacting the Duisburger Zoo in terms of more information about the big amur tiger and tigers in general. You know, data in general.
Their page says, their current amur male was transferred to the Emmen Zoo in Netherlands. His name is EL-ROI. They bring him back, when they´ve rebuild his enclosure. Maybe you´ll get a chance to visit him :-)
As you know, I myself, am not fond of Zoos.
RE: ON THE EDGE OF EXTINCTION - A - TIGERS (Panthera tigris) - peter - 02-09-2015
I rewrote my previous post, as it was a bit resentful towards 'activists'. Not what I want on a forum. Besides, they probably meant no harm. The problem is they don't seem to realize what a ban on 'wild animals' really means for these animals. It's a death sentence in many cases. Could you, for this reason, delete the part you copied for your post? Thanks.
The big Duisburg Zoo Amur tiger was famous in the seventies of the last century. Chances are not many would know about him today. I would be interested in his skull, though. Judging from the length of his head in his prime (50,00 cm.), the skull of the tiger probably was well over average. Maybe you can ask them about what happened to the skull.
I will most certainly try to transfer the documentary of Lindblad to a different medium and post it when I'm ready. Regards,
Peter.
RE: ON THE EDGE OF EXTINCTION - A - TIGERS (Panthera tigris) - peter - 02-09-2015
(02-09-2015, 01:50 PM)'brotherbear' Wrote: Peter, I wish to thank you for post 352 which I found to be very informative. I found nothing there that I disagree with. As for poster Ursus arctos middendorffi, I highly respect him and always appreciated his input, even though much of it was over my head. Just curious, are both Ursus and yourself college professors?
After I graduated, I turned to music and mixed it with research for a friend, who's a lawyer. Money and all that, but I have to add I like research. Ursus was busy graduating when I saw him. A lack of time was the main reason we couldn't start the forum we had in mind. Another important reason was a lack of skill. It takes skill to start, maintain and develop a forum.
Sanjay is a web-designer and has the skill needed. He also is interested in animals and knows about forums. This is why I decided to give it a try. Sanjay is doing a great job. This forum also has well-trained mods really interested in animals. A very good team, I think.
I've always been interested in animals, but decided to keep it to myself at a young age and never changed my mind. When I had the time needed to take another step, I visited Dr. P.J.H. van Bree of the Zoological Museum Amsterdam. Van Bree was a friend of V. Mazak. He, Mazak and Colin Groves wrote an article on Bali tiger skulls. Dr. van Bree, born on Sumatra, told me all I had to know about skulls and research. He opened a lot of doors of museums and offered to help me out on the book. Most unfortunately, it wasn't to be. One day, when I went to the Museum to see him, his collegues told me he was gone. They couldn't contact him anymore. I tried a few times, but didn't succeed. He had vanished from the face of the earth.
When I first met Van Bree, he was old. If I had decided to wait one more year, I would never have met him. Dr. P. J.H. van Bree was a very kind, open-minded, productive and well-informed man right till the end. A man prepared to share what he knew as well. To me and many others, he was someone who made a difference. Quite something, I'd say.
RE: ON THE EDGE OF EXTINCTION - A - TIGERS (Panthera tigris) - GrizzlyClaws - 02-09-2015
I don't think they did preserve that skull, since there is a common regulation for all zoos to destroy all the remains of the dead tigers.
I also hope they could preserve the body remains of Baikal once he has passed away, since his size is absolutely prehistoric.
RE: ON THE EDGE OF EXTINCTION - A - TIGERS (Panthera tigris) - Pckts - 02-09-2015
Tiger Tooth I bought from Thailand
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
RE: ON THE EDGE OF EXTINCTION - A - TIGERS (Panthera tigris) - GrizzlyClaws - 02-10-2015
The pics cannot be seen, is this the upload problem or it hasn't been uploaded properly?
RE: ON THE EDGE OF EXTINCTION - A - TIGERS (Panthera tigris) - Pckts - 02-10-2015
(02-10-2015, 01:30 AM)'GrizzlyClaws' Wrote: The pics cannot be seen, is this the upload problem or it hasn't been uploaded properly?
My pics of the Tooth?
They are viewable on my end.