(01-16-2019, 08:40 AM)Wolverine Wrote: Probably the truth is somewhere in between, who knows. Its true that Karanth is biologist while Kipling was not, but in same time Karanth should also not place under suspicion and ignore the observations of Keneth Anderson, who was not less experienced than him in the jungle life.

(01-16-2019, 09:46 AM)GuateGojira Wrote:

(01-15-2019, 11:43 PM)Shadow Wrote: Does anyone have more information about this case maybe?

http://zeenews.india.com/news/eco-news/pack-of-wild-dogs-attack-and-injure-tiger-at-panna-reserve_877236.html

One case probably cub killed by dholes.

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city/nagpur/Tiger-cub-killed-by-wild-dogs-in-Chanda/articleshow/14512292.cms

First case: Doesn't mention the sex or age of the tiger. In fact, only five dogs attacking a tiger seems very suspiciuos. Could be feral dogs? Maybe, as they don't afraid of any animal and are spread in many places of India in these days. So, inconclusive case of dhole attack.

Second case: Tiger cubs can be killed by many other animals in the forest. This is not evidence of dholes attacking or predating tigers directly.

Again, the videos that you posted shows that the dholes are very nervous and are trying to disctract the tiger or drive it away. Tiger, on the other hand, dominate them, attack them or simply ignore them.

(01-16-2019, 08:40 AM)Wolverine Wrote: Obviously dholes on that video are trying to irritate the tiger.

So, we already have 2 different videos, showing how small packs of dholes briefly encircle tigers. They stay at distance 5-6 meters from the cat. In the moment the tiger rush towards one of the dholes the dhole run away, than the dholes again encircle the tiger until finally all dogs move away. Probably if the tiger is very sick or very old they could dare to attack him but this are only speculations. We still didn't have any video from India showing real attack or bites as we have with spotted hyenas and lions in Africa. 

Could be observed two extreme opossite opinions about dholes- Kipling and Karanth:

1. According Kipling dhole packs are something like supreme killing machine attacking Indian jungles as avalanche and destroing everything on its way, chasing and killing tigers with some suicidal passion to make heroical victory on the giant cat.
2. According famous Indian biologist Ulios Karanth the dholes are just small dogs who never dare to challenge a tiger and are often killed and hunted by tigers. All that old stories about extreme ferosity of the dholes are just legends and nothing more.
Probably the truth is somewhere in between, who knows. Its true that Karanth is biologist while Kipling was not, but in same time Karanth should also not place under suspicion and ignore the observations of Keneth Anderson, who was not less experienced than him in the jungle life.

(01-16-2019, 09:55 AM)GuateGojira Wrote: Little question, how many events between tigers and dholes witnessed Mr Anderson?

From the other side, Dr Karanth, Dr Chundawat and others had witnessed more events and in all the cases the tiger dominate. Remember that in these days there are still groups of up to 15 dholes, but the problem is how many are "adults" and how many are large "cubs". I think that Dr Karanth is correct in suspect the event recorded by Mr Anderson.

I do think that a weak/ill tiger/lion can be attacked and maybe killed by packs of dogs, like Mazák stated, but certainly that will not be the norm and modern evidence do not support the old claims.

(01-16-2019, 09:55 AM)GuateGojira Wrote: Little question, how many events between tigers and dholes witnessed Mr Anderson?

From the other side, Dr Karanth, Dr Chundawat and others had witnessed more events and in all the cases the tiger dominate. Remember that in these days there are still groups of up to 15 dholes, but the problem is how many are "adults" and how many are large "cubs". I think that Dr Karanth is correct in suspect the event recorded by Mr Anderson.

I do think that a weak/ill tiger/lion can be attacked and maybe killed by packs of dogs, like Mazák stated, but certainly that will not be the norm and modern evidence do not support the old claims.

(01-16-2019, 09:46 AM)GuateGojira Wrote: Again, the videos that you posted shows that the dholes are very nervous and are trying to disctract the tiger or drive it away. Tiger, on the other hand, dominate them, attack them or simply ignore them.

(01-16-2019, 08:14 PM)Wolverine Wrote:

(01-16-2019, 09:55 AM)GuateGojira Wrote: Little question, how many events between tigers and dholes witnessed Mr Anderson?

From the other side, Dr Karanth, Dr Chundawat and others had witnessed more events and in all the cases the tiger dominate. Remember that in these days there are still groups of up to 15 dholes, but the problem is how many are "adults" and how many are large "cubs". I think that Dr Karanth is correct in suspect the event recorded by Mr Anderson.

I do think that a weak/ill tiger/lion can be attacked and maybe killed by packs of dogs, like Mazák stated, but certainly that will not be the norm and modern evidence do not support the old claims.

The fact that Mr Karanth (and Mr Chundawat) has not witnessed personaly a tiger attacked by dholes doesn't mean that such an events have never happened.  Such a statement from his side will be a sign a high self esteem and a basically ridiculous. In order to make general conclusions about tiger-dhole relations we need to collect all information in the last 2 centuries from hunters, local people and scientists. Blaming Kenneth Anderson, a man who spent his entire life in the the Indian jungles Mr Karanth became himself vulnerable for accusations. While highly talented stories of Anderson will be read even after century, frankly speaking Karanth texts are one of the most boring and clumsy scientific texts I have ever tried to red.



Zoological survey of India, tiger injured by dholes in Kanha, 1963

*This image is copyright of its original author

(01-16-2019, 04:00 PM)Jimmy Wrote: Could it also be that dholes are in a sort of irreversible stage now a days in some of their realm, for example it could be that once they reach certain size of pack members they could be more vulnerable for tiger attack because they will be more readily get noticed and pack is still small enough (lets say its hard to make 30+ in todays world concerning rether limited food and space) to be vulnerable to tigers. Maybe smaller pack now a days may be making more sense lessening detection and becoming more elusive, scurrying undetected through forest floor, We never know what ecological imbalance may have created  against forming large packs. Barring South India dhole appear in pretty small packs behaving like golden jackals like limiting themselves to a pair or more which would be more successful in quick and sustained attack on smaller prey like barking deer, ghorals etc, killing and eating quickly and then going unnoticed, this I am thinking because I have not seen huge packs like south-india's in South East Asia and Nepal, they may have changed their pack Dynamics a little. I am really beggining to think it is very possible in a jungle environment they live in unlike savannah where this option might not work well. Here is the one and probably only footage from Chitwan

(01-16-2019, 08:52 PM)Shadow Wrote:

(01-16-2019, 04:00 PM)Jimmy Wrote: Could it also be that dholes are in a sort of irreversible stage now a days in some of their realm, for example it could be that once they reach certain size of pack members they could be more vulnerable for tiger attack because they will be more readily get noticed and pack is still small enough (lets say its hard to make 30+ in todays world concerning rether limited food and space) to be vulnerable to tigers. Maybe smaller pack now a days may be making more sense lessening detection and becoming more elusive, scurrying undetected through forest floor, We never know what ecological imbalance may have created  against forming large packs. Barring South India dhole appear in pretty small packs behaving like golden jackals like limiting themselves to a pair or more which would be more successful in quick and sustained attack on smaller prey like barking deer, ghorals etc, killing and eating quickly and then going unnoticed, this I am thinking because I have not seen huge packs like south-india's in South East Asia and Nepal, they may have changed their pack Dynamics a little. I am really beggining to think it is very possible in a jungle environment they live in unlike savannah where this option might not work well. Here is the one and probably only footage from Chitwan

Looks like also, that these dholes might have been feeling disturbed by people there. Watch that documentary in dhole thread. There is said, that dholes stop kill if seeing humans nearby. I am not sure if that was local phenomenon in that area or more common behavior. It was based to it, that people have often followed dholes and taken prey animal from them after kill, which leaded to situation, that dholes have learned to let it be if noticing people. In this video one dhole is looking many times straigth to camera and not participating to hunt even when prey is in water. Look what happens when 2 dholes run towards water and immedieately after it. Other looks at camera and chase ends there for it.

(01-16-2019, 08:40 PM)Wolverine Wrote:

(01-16-2019, 09:46 AM)GuateGojira Wrote: Again, the videos that you posted shows that the dholes are very nervous and are trying to disctract the tiger or drive it away. Tiger, on the other hand, dominate them, attack them or simply ignore them.

I have hard time to see a "domination" in some of these videos. Yes, dholes are cautious, but they obviously don't afraid of the tiger at all,  they are impudent, cautious and curious altogether.

(01-16-2019, 08:14 PM)Wolverine Wrote:

(01-16-2019, 09:55 AM)GuateGojira Wrote: Little question, how many events between tigers and dholes witnessed Mr Anderson?

From the other side, Dr Karanth, Dr Chundawat and others had witnessed more events and in all the cases the tiger dominate. Remember that in these days there are still groups of up to 15 dholes, but the problem is how many are "adults" and how many are large "cubs". I think that Dr Karanth is correct in suspect the event recorded by Mr Anderson.

I do think that a weak/ill tiger/lion can be attacked and maybe killed by packs of dogs, like Mazák stated, but certainly that will not be the norm and modern evidence do not support the old claims.

The fact that Mr Karanth (and Mr Chundawat) has not witnessed personaly a tiger attacked by dholes doesn't mean that such an events have never happened.  Such a statement from his side will be a sign a high self esteem and a basically ridiculous. In order to make general conclusions about tiger-dhole relations we need to collect all information in the last 2 centuries from hunters, local people and scientists. Blaming Kenneth Anderson, a man who spent his entire life in the the Indian jungles Mr Karanth became himself vulnerable for accusations. While highly talented stories of Anderson will be read even after century, frankly speaking Karanth texts are one of the most boring and clumsy scientific texts I have ever try to read.



Zoological survey of India, tiger injured by dholes in Kanha, 1963

*This image is copyright of its original author

(01-17-2019, 03:09 AM)paul cooper Wrote:

(01-16-2019, 08:14 PM)Wolverine Wrote:

(01-16-2019, 09:55 AM)GuateGojira Wrote: Little question, how many events between tigers and dholes witnessed Mr Anderson?

From the other side, Dr Karanth, Dr Chundawat and others had witnessed more events and in all the cases the tiger dominate. Remember that in these days there are still groups of up to 15 dholes, but the problem is how many are "adults" and how many are large "cubs". I think that Dr Karanth is correct in suspect the event recorded by Mr Anderson.

I do think that a weak/ill tiger/lion can be attacked and maybe killed by packs of dogs, like Mazák stated, but certainly that will not be the norm and modern evidence do not support the old claims.

The fact that Mr Karanth (and Mr Chundawat) has not witnessed personaly a tiger attacked by dholes doesn't mean that such an events have never happened.  Such a statement from his side will be a sign a high self esteem and a basically ridiculous. In order to make general conclusions about tiger-dhole relations we need to collect all information in the last 2 centuries from hunters, local people and scientists. Blaming Kenneth Anderson, a man who spent his entire life in the the Indian jungles Mr Karanth became himself vulnerable for accusations. While highly talented stories of Anderson will be read even after century, frankly speaking Karanth texts are one of the most boring and clumsy scientific texts I have ever try to read.



Zoological survey of India, tiger injured by dholes in Kanha, 1963

*This image is copyright of its original author

I think you just made yourself vulnerable for accusations. Karanth, a guy who has been in the field for decades and observed the interactions between the animals, dholes never threatened tigers. And that is all there is to it. Learn what science is. Dholes most likely only attack injured or juvenile tigers.

(01-06-2019, 10:32 AM)Wolverine Wrote:

(01-06-2019, 10:10 AM)Greatearth Wrote:

(01-06-2019, 09:49 AM)Wolverine Wrote: I remember that as a child red in Red book of Soviet Union (from 1980's or 1970's) that even in pre-industrial age, before human colonization of RFE Amur tiger's population was assessed at around 700-900, there were never more than 700-900 wild tigers in what is today Russian Ussuriland. Amur tigers have never been numerous. 

That's way we have to understand that there is only one true Kingdom of Tiger in this planet and this is INDIA. Tropical ecosystems are much more fertile than northern ecosystems, density of tropical tigers is 15-20 larger than dencity of Siberian tigers. In one small Kaziranga NP on territory of 430 sq.km. live 90 tigers while in gigantic Bikin NP with territory of 11 600 sq. km.  live only 40-50 tigers. 
Every square feet of Indian jungle is teeming with life, every square feet of Indian jungle is a diamond! @Rishi

Really? So Siberian tigers were always small numbers in Russia? 700-900 seems to be too small. Wouldn't be just in Ussuriland? How about other states in Russia? Moreover, places like Manchuria? I think Manchuria was once hold the highest populations of the Siberian tigers. Plus, many people also hunts their food like deer a lot in 20th century. Korea had a high density of tigers compared to its size. 

I was always wondered that why tiger population was high in India even though they were exceptionally hunted just like in other Asia. It maybe different reasons. I don't know places like other South East Asia (India is also much larger than other SE Asia country). As for biodiversity, Indochina has much higher biodiversity than India. About population of large mammals seem to be different. However, I am curious why prey density in South East Asia is smaller than India.

China once had the Siberian tiger, Caspian tiger, South China tiger, Indochinese tiger, and Bengal tiger. China was also experienced different ecosystems throughout the times due to human impacts throughout each dynasties.
I am not sure how many tigers were in mainland China 100~150 years ago. I believe that Kingdom of Tiger was for both China and India, I would put more hand on China though. Difference is that chinese lost that title by themselves.

These numbers (700-900) are only for Outer (Russian) Mandzuria and do not include numbers in Inner (Chinese) Mandzuria which is twice the size of the Russian part. Soviet scientists didn't care about China of cource when they did their assesments.

Why the density of tigers is higher in India than in South East Asia if they both are tropical ecosystems? Good question. Its the same question as why the human population in India is so gigantic and much much  larger than population of South East Asia? A land which can feed much more people can also feed much more tigers. They both have high tempeartures and high humidity ideal for lush vegetation. The answer is: SOIL. The alluvial soils of India and China are the most fertile soils in the planet. In India you have ideal combination: high temperatures + humidity + fertile soils + enough grass between trees for feeding of high number of herbivores. So you have astronomical dencity of tigers and other big predators.