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RE: ON THE EDGE OF EXTINCTION - A - THE TIGER (Panthera tigris) - epaiva - 03-02-2018
(03-01-2018, 10:39 PM)Upeter Wrote:@peter(03-01-2018, 02:27 PM)Spalea Wrote:(03-01-2018, 01:22 PM)brotherbear Wrote: Is the story "Amba" in book form? Would Sysoev be the author?
Amba" ? It's the Siberian name given to the tiger, the tiger's name which even the hunters pronounce by whispering... I remember to have seen the movie "Dersou Ouzala" by Akira Kurozawa, from the book of Vladimir Arseniev. Amba, the tiger, fearsome spirit of the forest...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dersu_Uzala_(1975_film)
In Dersu's world, the tiger was 'Amba'. The Udege also use this word.
The short story named 'Amba', however, was written by Sysoev. It was first posted by 'Grahh' from AVA in the thread 'Male bears are not our of the predatory reach of tigers if of similar size' (the title could be slightly different). Last time I visited AVA, it was still there.
Sysoev's story is about a male tiger. The tiger was robbed more than once by a brown bear. As the bear was very large, he was unable to do anything about it. When another, smaller, bear also tried to rob the tiger, a fight erupted. As the description was very detailed, my guess is that Sysoev could have seen a fight between a brown bear and a tiger himself. I once read he saw four, but that seems unlikely. Anyhow. The brown bear, an emaciated 'Schatun', won the fight and killed the tiger.
Although written in Russian, there is an English version. I'll try to find it, but it might take a while.
In the meantime, my advice is to buy 'Dersu the Trapper - A True Account by V.K. Arseniev'. The first English edition was published in 1941 by E.P. Dutton & Co (New York). A new version was published in 1968. In 1996, an edition translated by Malcolm Burr was published. This is the one I bought (ISBN 0-929701-50-X or 0-929701-49-6). Highly recommended:
*This image is copyright of its original author
Thanks a lot for your valuable information, I think that a big Brown Bear is too much too powerful for any Tiger
RE: ON THE EDGE OF EXTINCTION - A - THE TIGER (Panthera tigris) - Greatearth - 03-02-2018
peter
Matkasur tried to hunt this sloth bear, but bear actually escaped and chased away tiger. I think it would be the same for brown bear since brown bear is bigger than sloth bear. I think outcome would be the same if it was opposite. Tiger definitely escape and chase away brown bear and sloth bear when bear wants to hunt tiger.
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*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
RE: ON THE EDGE OF EXTINCTION - A - THE TIGER (Panthera tigris) - Pckts - 03-02-2018
I posted the video here https://wildfact.com/forum/topic-big-cat-interactions-interspecific-conflicts?pid=51946#pid51946
if you want to see the encounter @
I have seen a few sloth bear in the wild, two of them were nothing special in terms of size, they would of easily been prey for a tiger, the 3rd one was crossing the road, he was a battle scared male and a large one at that. I have little doubt that the male I saw there would put a serious fight against any cat, while he wasn't as large as the Male Tigers I saw, he wouldn't have been completely outmatched in size and as we see in the video, bears are tenacious. If they are forced to fight for their life, they can and will do so with weapons that should be respected, especially by a solitary predatory that something as little as a cut paw can become life threatening.
RE: ON THE EDGE OF EXTINCTION - A - THE TIGER (Panthera tigris) - Spalea - 03-02-2018
@Polar :
About #1513: Thank you for having posted the whole cartoon concerning Uporny's story !
RE: ON THE EDGE OF EXTINCTION - A - THE TIGER (Panthera tigris) - Wolverine - 03-02-2018
Sloth bear is much smaller and weaker than brown bear but its more aggressive, its probably the most aggressive and braver bear specie, a fierless animal. As a general rool sloth bear almost never escape a big predator climbing on the tree (as for example usually are doing Asiatic black bears in Ussuriland climbing on the trees in case of danger) and almost always stand his ground. For sure sloth bear is nor capable to kill a tiger but it can inflict with its long claws a serious ingury to tiger. I have an impression that the main purpose of sloth bear in fight with tiger is to pull out his eyes, there were more than one tiger in India losing an eye from shoth bears. In a struggle between tiger and sloth bear the tiger is a "boy" and the bear is a "girl". Probably everybody of us when we were teenagers in the school it that good old times when the feminism was still not born.... we had some encounter with girl.... What she is trying to do - to pull your hear to scratch your eyes with her long claws and she even much weaker than the boy is quite formidable adversary..... (ok, this was a half joke)... So that's basically is the tactics of the sloth bear in encounter with tiger.
@Polar thanks a lot for remarkable cartoons with Uporny!
RE: ON THE EDGE OF EXTINCTION - A - THE TIGER (Panthera tigris) - brotherbear - 03-02-2018
Some naturalist claim the Canadian barren ground grizzly to be the world's most aggressive bear. The Tibetan brown bear ( blue bear ) is also highly aggressive. But the sloth bear is tough competition is the aggression department.
RE: ON THE EDGE OF EXTINCTION - A - THE TIGER (Panthera tigris) - Wolverine - 03-02-2018
Yes, I have also heard that among brown bears Barren grizzly is most aggressive. In same time as specie sloth bears accounts for more attacks on humans than any other bear specie, probably more than all other bear species taken together. According wikipedia only in one Indian state of Madhya Pradesh, sloth bear attacks accounted for the deaths of 48 people and the injuring of 686 others between 1989 and 1994. A total of 137 attacks (resulting in 11 deaths) occurred between April 1998 and December 2000 only in the one North Bilaspur Forest Division of Indian state Chhattisgarh. Taking into account that Madhya Pradesh occupy only about 1/6 or 1/7 of total surface of India it could be calculated that total number of attacks on humans in all India for several years could be calculated in thousands. In same time of course India is much more densily populated land than Northern Alaska where very few people live so possibility for conflicts with local grizzly bears are much less.
Its terrible to look on the victims of such attacks. WARNING - do not click on this link if you are sensible or have weak nerves!
http://www.ijps.org/article.asp?issn=0970-0358;year=2015;volume=48;issue=1;spage=60;epage=65;aulast=Patil
Concerning conflicts with tigers of course brown bear must have totally diferent tactics than sloth bear. Brown bear is much more massive and much stronger than sloth bear so in case of conflict it should try to overwhelm the cat with his gigantic physical power, not to pull out his eyes.Atually brown bear-tiger relations are still a bit of enigma due to remoteness of Russian forests. But due to fast spreading of technology of camera traps in Russian Far East we should expect a lot of news in next years.
RE: ON THE EDGE OF EXTINCTION - A - THE TIGER (Panthera tigris) - brotherbear - 03-02-2018
Just a thought Wolverine. Might it be that the presence of the tiger, an apex predator, the main reason for the sloth bear's disposition? I know that other bear species also live in tiger domains, but perhaps at some point in the sloth bear's history, he learned that to escape up tree, he must climb very high very quickly. A tiger can jump seemingly impossible heights for so massive a predator. Perhaps, this bear decided that a stand on the ground might be the safer choice.
RE: ON THE EDGE OF EXTINCTION - A - THE TIGER (Panthera tigris) - Greatearth - 03-03-2018
I don't know bear would target on tiger's eye when they were attacked by tiger. This is the first time I heard that bear is targeting tiger's eye when they were hunting by tiger. That sloth bear doesn't really looking to hit opponent eyes in video.
Many big cats may lose their eye during territorial battle against other cats. One-eye jaguar, who is known to as famous for hunting caiman in Pantanal. I heard he lost his eyes during battle against other jaguar.
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RE: ON THE EDGE OF EXTINCTION - A - THE TIGER (Panthera tigris) - Wolverine - 03-03-2018
Greatearth, sloth bear always target the face of the enemy, its a rool, whatever is this enemy - human, , tiger, leopard etc. 90% of human victims of sloth bear attacks have a terribly mauled faces (look at the photos) - scalped heads, lost eyes. ears, thorn big parts of the face etc. Same is with the tiger. Sloth bear is relatively small and weak animal (twice smaller than tiger) thatswhy it cant kill a tiger or inflict a serious body injuries to him. So the only way to neutralize a tiger and save his life for sloth bear is to target the face and more specially the eyes, because if tiger loose his sight he is done. That doesn't mean that you are going to see in any corner of jungles roaming a blind tigers. Actually tigers know very well for this danger so when they have an violent encounter with sloth bear they keep their faces and eyes out of the range of the long claws of sloth bear, actually thatswhy Indian tigers avoid close encounters with sloth bears. They hunt them if the bear doesn't known about tiger's presence, attacking the bear suddennly from behind with neck bite, but if bear has localised the tiger and knows about his presence and turn face to face than tiger usualy withdraws.
Brown bear from Ussuriland in same time is enough big and powerful and could potentially neutralise a tiger in many different ways , so it doesn't need to target tiger's face during close encounter so it's tactics should be tottaly diferent. That's my humble opinion.
I finished with this topic. Later we can talk with you about Jankovski and Korea and why there are so many leopards in his book.
RE: ON THE EDGE OF EXTINCTION - A - THE TIGER (Panthera tigris) - Wolverine - 03-03-2018
@
Here is the translation of the chapters of Jankovski's the Seniour book "Half century tiger hunting":
http://www.rulit.me/books/polveka-ohoty-na-tigrov-read-376086-1.html
Chapter 1: My first tiger hunt
Chapter 2: I am "entomologist"
Chapter 3: My first tiger
Chapter 4: Dangers of the forest ranger
5: Almost dead
6: Case with my father
7: My second leopard
8: Adventure with bear
9: Trioplet
10: Leopard on the background of rising sun
11: Sibata and the leopard
12: Tree leopards
13: Adventure with a poacher
14: Makarus and the wild boars
15: Inside the taiga
16: My first hunting in Manchuria
17: The stolen boar
18: Wounded bull
19: A lot of happiness
20. Again in the taiga
21. Traces of four tigers
22. Lulia follows a fresh tiger traces
23. Traces of predators
24. Tiger attack me
25. Enforced rest
26. The third tiger
27. IMAGES
The book is quite interesting, I just started to read it. It's probably a unique source of information about Far Eastern leopards, at least four of the chapters describe them. Vladimir Arseniev had more limited experience with that cats because Russian Ussuriland is situated in more Northern latitudes than Chinese Manchuria and Korea and actually its the very edge of the areal of that cat. Obviously in Korea that animals were much more numerous.
For now I red first tree chapters of the book. Shortly Jankovski described how his father got him to study the art of tiger hunting when he was only 11 years old. When Jankovski had been 15 years old he with his 2 brothers and one local peasant made his first real tiger hunt. A local tiger killed a horse from Jankovski's family farm so they start chasing him for many miles riding their horses. Their father told to sons to not tire the tiger during the chase too much because he will get angry to the people. They didn't listen him a the tiger attacked one of the horseman and slightly injured the rider. But luckily the horse succeeded to kick the tiger with it's metal hoof in the head. They shot the predator when he was trying to maul the peasant.
Jankovski the Seniour doesnt posses the narrative genius of Vladimir Arseniev - the greatest man in Russian Far East but he was a good writer with a huge forest experience. Once he was injured by tigress - the animal from the left in the bottom photo.
RE: ON THE EDGE OF EXTINCTION - A - THE TIGER (Panthera tigris) - peter - 03-04-2018
WARSAW III - WAVERIDERS
Interesting posts on the issues discussed. Many thanks. I think we can now get to a few conclusions. I'll respond in some days.
RE: ON THE EDGE OF EXTINCTION - A - THE TIGER (Panthera tigris) - Wolverine - 03-10-2018
Jankovski-father says his favourite method of tiger hunting in Russian Ussuriland during the cold season was from the horseback. In same time curiously in Korea he hunted tigers mainly on foot because mountains of Korea by his opinion are too steep to chase tigers and other animals by horses:
http://www.rulit.me/books/polveka-ohoty-na-tigrov-read-376086-15.html
"Both me and my father liked to hunt from horseback, that was so usefull in the flat hills of Primorie, which are predominantly covered by high grasses and Filipendula; just opposite to Korea, where very steep mountain slopes and dense vegetation of various trees (particularly pine and oak) doesn't give an opportunity of such a sport".
Now I remember somewhere to read that Sihote Alin mountain range (90% of Amur tiger areal) in Ussuriland is very ancient by his origins, so for many millions and millions of years erossion and winds its slopes become very flatty without any rough rocky slopes, so not only the vallyes, but even the highest picks are covered by lush forests. Villages are walled claustoforbically by all sides by dense mixed forests. In same time mountains of Korean peninsula and Japan are geologically younger, that's way they are higher and more steepy. The ecosystem is the same - but the landscapes are probably quite different. View of Sihote Alin mountain range is just opposite to Rocky mountains in North America - gigantic rocky picks up of the forest line.
RE: ON THE EDGE OF EXTINCTION - A - THE TIGER (Panthera tigris) - brotherbear - 03-10-2018
Like comparing the Appalatchian Mountains with the Rocky Mountains.
RE: ON THE EDGE OF EXTINCTION - A - THE TIGER (Panthera tigris) - Greatearth - 03-11-2018
I read that Indian rhino and Asiatic elephant shows aggression toward sloth bear and always charge bear if they feel a little bit annoying. I don't know how bear defense against these animal, but bear would most likely run away if it is rhino and elephant. It would be the same for the Brown bear, Grizzly bear, Kodiak Bear, and Polar bear since elephant and rhino are too big and extremely powerful. I saw one photo of fight between gaur vs 2 sloth bears for waterhole. Sloth bears ran away instead of fighting against gaur. I am not sure sloth bear target the face of the enemy like elephant, rhino, and gaur.
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Gaur is huge!
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About that video, I heard this sloth bear was actually a mother and she has a cub. She might defended death or alive while tiger is just trying to kill bear. I heard Matkasur is a 7 years old dominating male tiger and how come bear is okay (not even got injured and blood) even after it was bitten by tiger?
Anyway, if this bear was actually a mother. Then she would fight anything as possible to escape from tiger. It is the same for mother puma vs grizzly video. Mother puma protects her cub fiercely against grizzly bear. Grizzly ran away even though he is bigger and stronger than female puma just like Matkasaur and female sloth bear. It might have been different for both sloth bear and puma if they were just normal female. This would be the same for the tiger and brown bear. If it was mother tiger defend death or alive against male brown bear to save her cubs. The tiger probably defeat brown bear just like those puma and sloth bear.
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2 years ago, there was first record of jaguar predating on a black bear in USA. There was no doubt it was adult American black bear. The jaguar would have been attacked bear from ambush. Since jaguar killing style is bite straight through the skull of its prey unlike biting the neck to suffocate the prey. It pierces directly through the temporal bones of the skull the ears of prey with its canine teeth.
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My guess it was ambush that killed adult American black bear, but nothing is really known what actually happened. What would it be if it was face to face match just like Matakasur and female sloth bear? The Arizona jaguar is not even huge as the Pantanal jaguar. The American black bear would chase away if it was face to face math. I've seen video of black bear is defeating against puma from face to face unlike mother puma vs grizzly bear.
I can’t tell since there are not many records, but I heard many of the Bengal tiger is killing sloth bear was from ambush. What would it be if tiger vs sloth bear just fought as death match? I would put my hand on tiger regardless if bear attacks on its eye or face due to size difference. If it was a brown bear, then I would say brown bear would be winner most likely even though brown bear would receive serious injuries. I noticed jaguar is doing well against the larger mammalian carnivores if it attacking from ambush, because of their killing style of skull bite. of I can’t tell about tiger since there are not many records, but leopard is opposite due to their small size. I think cheetah is the worst compared to all of big cats since cheetah lost everything to gain the fastest speed.
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This young female tiger was extremely strong against huge male boar from face to face match. While below leopard is running away against larger hyena. I personally think leopard has more advantage against hyena since leopard can use paw to scratch its face. One problem is their smaller size unlike tiger and jaguar. The tiger and jaguar would kill hyena extremely fast. Especially, the male tiger would destroy group of hyenas with no problems since tiger is the most powerful, strongest, and largest of all cats.
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Wolverine
I think Russian Far East and Korean peninsula had the most similar ecosystem and wildlife. However, I don't think the ecosystem of Korea and Russia were the same. It depends on area of the Korean peninsula, but animals of the South Korea were smaller and less larger herbivores. Temperature is much warmer in South Korea while northern Korea was definitely colder than Sihote Alin since it is high altitude.
Yes, I know about Yankovsky family background. I don't know many of their books since it's written it as Russian. I want to know more about the Amur leopard story. Thanks a lot for valuable information! I will write you through message when I have a time. I am a little busy these days.