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+---- Thread: Freak Felids - A Discussion of History's Largest Felines (/topic-freak-felids-a-discussion-of-history-s-largest-felines)
RE: Freak Felids - A Discussion of History's Largest Felines - peter - 02-25-2018
(02-22-2018, 08:10 AM)tigerluver Wrote: To be frank, the relative canine size for the mandible is rather average. Looking at the previous overlay comparisons, the canine is proportionately as big as that of the Trinil and Longdan tigers. It's just that the skull is so big that the canine is in absolute terms huge.
Maybe the drop in body size caused an increase in canine length. It's energetically cheaper to grow larger canines than a larger body. Therefore, today's cats can achieve a quicker kill with longer canines rather than sheer body strength.
Agreed. Maintaining a large body is a costly affair. Keeping large teeth isn't. During the Pleistocene big cats lost size, but they kept the dentition they had just in case. After the Toba eruption, things most probably changed in that department.
As to age. You can get a very decent estimate, but my friends told me it would be costly. Better find someone writing an article about Pleistocene big cats right now. If you come up empty, you could develop a proposal yourself. The fragment you have no doubt would interest a number of institutions.
Congratulations with the magnificent mandible. Keep us informed.
RE: Freak Felids - A Discussion of History's Largest Felines - tigerluver - 02-25-2018
I can give measurements and photos on request. A formal report won't happen until this summer at the earliest, too busy right now unfortunately to write something myself or have my colleagues look into it.
RE: Freak Felids - A Discussion of History's Largest Felines - tigerluver - 02-27-2018
Here's the test for a relationship between proportional dental width and proportional skull width in P. spelaea. The relationship was insignificant so it seems dentition are again a very poor predictor of anything.
*This image is copyright of its original author
RE: Freak Felids - A Discussion of History's Largest Felines - tigerluver - 03-11-2018
Another overlay comparison with P. atrox and another P. tigris.:
*This image is copyright of its original author
RE: Freak Felids - A Discussion of History's Largest Felines - GrizzlyClaws - 03-11-2018
Funny that some Pleistocene tigers and Pleistocene lions did share some glaring morphological convergence.
RE: Freak Felids - A Discussion of History's Largest Felines - Spalea - 04-01-2018
Hello ! I don't know what it is worth but:
http://www.newsweek.com/gigantic-lion-africa-extinct-200000-years-860353
"Gigantic African ice-age lions", april fool or not, what do you think about ? I note they make a link between these lions and the fossilis buffalo the giant buffalo Syncerus antiquus.
RE: Freak Felids - A Discussion of History's Largest Felines - GrizzlyClaws - 04-01-2018
(04-01-2018, 01:19 PM)Spalea Wrote: Hello ! I don't know what it is worth but:
http://www.newsweek.com/gigantic-lion-africa-extinct-200000-years-860353
"Gigantic African ice-age lions", april fool or not, what do you think about ? I note they make a link between these lions and the fossilis buffalo the giant buffalo Syncerus antiquus.
These giant lions were the true ancestors of the modern lions, since they did predate the divergence of the Afro-Asiatic lions.
It was likely that they were eventually compelled to adjust their size downward, then split into two populations; a forest population dwelled in the West Africa and a savanna population roamed in the Southeast Africa.
Some West African groups migrated out of African and evolved into the Asiatic lions, and those stayed in the savanna became the modern African lions.
RE: Freak Felids - A Discussion of History's Largest Felines - Spalea - 04-01-2018
(04-01-2018, 09:11 PM)GrizzlyClaws Wrote:(04-01-2018, 01:19 PM)Spalea Wrote: Hello ! I don't know what it is worth but:
http://www.newsweek.com/gigantic-lion-africa-extinct-200000-years-860353
"Gigantic African ice-age lions", april fool or not, what do you think about ? I note they make a link between these lions and the fossilis buffalo the giant buffalo Syncerus antiquus.
These giant lions were the true ancestors of the modern lions, since they did predate the divergence of the Afro-Asiatic lions.
It was likely that they were eventually compelled to adjust their size downward, then split into two populations; a forest population dwelled in the West Africa and a savanna population roamed in the Southeast Africa.
Some West African groups migrated out of African and evolved into the Asiatic lions, and those stayed in the savanna became the modern African lions.
No problem for admitting yours explanations, but at the same time it is spoken about a 200.000-years-old fossil lion i.e. from the end of the Pleistocene. The split that you mention didn't it occur earlier within the Pleistocene period ?
RE: Freak Felids - A Discussion of History's Largest Felines - GrizzlyClaws - 04-02-2018
(04-01-2018, 11:39 PM)Spalea Wrote:(04-01-2018, 09:11 PM)GrizzlyClaws Wrote:(04-01-2018, 01:19 PM)Spalea Wrote: Hello ! I don't know what it is worth but:
http://www.newsweek.com/gigantic-lion-africa-extinct-200000-years-860353
"Gigantic African ice-age lions", april fool or not, what do you think about ? I note they make a link between these lions and the fossilis buffalo the giant buffalo Syncerus antiquus.
These giant lions were the true ancestors of the modern lions, since they did predate the divergence of the Afro-Asiatic lions.
It was likely that they were eventually compelled to adjust their size downward, then split into two populations; a forest population dwelled in the West Africa and a savanna population roamed in the Southeast Africa.
Some West African groups migrated out of African and evolved into the Asiatic lions, and those stayed in the savanna became the modern African lions.
No problem for admitting yours explanations, but at the same time it is spoken about a 200.000-years-old fossil lion i.e. from the end of the Pleistocene. The split that you mention didn't it occur earlier within the Pleistocene period ?
The Afro-Asiatic lion diverged around 100,000 years ago, but the Natodomeri lion existed even earlier at 200,000 years ago.
Both Natodomeri lion and Afro-Asiatic lion belong to the lineage of Panthera leo, whereas the Cave lion belongs to the lineage of Panthera spelaea.
In conclusion, it is very likely that the modern Afro-Asiatic lion being the chronological successor of the Natodomeri lion, since they did evolve from a small remaining population of the Natodomeri lion in the edge of South Africa around 110,000 years ago.
So technically speaking, the Natodomeri lion was not extinct, since the modern lion represents the continuation of its lineage, unlike the Cave lion whose lineage had been completely died off in the modern time.
*This image is copyright of its original author
RE: Freak Felids - A Discussion of History's Largest Felines - Spalea - 04-02-2018
@GrizzlyClaws :
About #849: Thank you for your answer ! I knew nothing about the word "Natodomeri". This is a place of the Nothern Kenya where this fossil "Natodomeri" lion would have been recently discovered. Most of the links about the "Natodomeri lion" date from November 2017 until 6 days ago...
An other article on "Sciency Thoughts":
http://sciencythoughts.blogspot.ch/2017/11/panthera-leo-gigantic-lion-from-middle.html
An other one on "IFL Science" :
http://www.iflscience.com/plants-and-animals/giant-lions-once-prowled-east-africa-200000yearold-skull-reveals/
A link on Youtube:
RE: Freak Felids - A Discussion of History's Largest Felines - Spalea - 04-02-2018
RE: Freak Felids - A Discussion of History's Largest Felines - GrizzlyClaws - 04-02-2018
(04-02-2018, 03:23 AM)Spalea Wrote: @GrizzlyClaws :
About #849: Thank you for your answer ! I knew nothing about the word "Natodomeri". This is a place of the Nothern Kenya where this fossil "Natodomeri" lion would have been recently discovered. Most of the links about the "Natodomeri lion" date from November 2017 until 6 days ago...
An other article on "Sciency Thoughts":
http://sciencythoughts.blogspot.ch/2017/11/panthera-leo-gigantic-lion-from-middle.html
An other one on "IFL Science" :
http://www.iflscience.com/plants-and-animals/giant-lions-once-prowled-east-africa-200000yearold-skull-reveals/
A link on Youtube:
For the convenience, I just gave a namesake for this lion, just like the Ngandong tiger for Panthera tigris soloensis.
In fact, Panthera tigris soloensis had roamed a range beyond Ngandong, but the namesake was just for the convenience.
BTW, I wonder if the Natodomeri lion had mane or not, and not sure when exactly Panthera leo had developed their mane.
RE: Freak Felids - A Discussion of History's Largest Felines - brotherbear - 04-02-2018
Is there enough information collected to create a comparison picture of Natodomeri lion with a modern African lion? A picture is worth a thousand words.
RE: Freak Felids - A Discussion of History's Largest Felines - GrizzlyClaws - 04-02-2018
(04-02-2018, 04:13 AM)brotherbear Wrote: Is there enough information collected to create a comparison picture of Natodomeri lion with a modern African lion? A picture is worth a thousand words.
Leave this job to @tigerluver.
RE: Freak Felids - A Discussion of History's Largest Felines - Spalea - 04-02-2018
@GrizzlyClaws :
About #852: since the modern lions, Asiatic and African, are well-maned lions, whereas the Cave lions and Panthera Atrox (or the North American Lion) were very poorly-maned, we can indeed suppose that the true origins of the mane belongs to the Natodomeri lineage. And perhaps before the split African lion/Asiatic lion. But of course we cannot determine how much the Natodomeri lion's mane was developed. And thus the origin picture of the youtube video (#851) is only a pure speculation.
Inside the "Sciency Thoughts" article, it is said that the Natodomeri lion' size and the Panthera Atrox' size were as big one than the other. The poorly-maned North American lion and the perhaps well-maned Natodomeri lion would be the opposite tendancies as concerns the mane among the Pleistocene lions.
As concerns the size, we can believe, according to the skulls fragments known, that the Natodomeri lion's size and the North American lion's size were equal. After the split African lion/Asiatic lion the lions' size were smaller. But as concerns the Spelaea lineage, the differents lions invading the nothern countries were more and more bigger till they regained, with the North American lion, the Natodomeri lion's size with which he was in part coeval.
I hope not to be confused in my interpretation but...
Now I just make a brief aside in the children novels of the 60th... I have kept from my childhood two prehistoric novels from the french writer, Rosny Ainé (1856-1940) : "The quest for fire" continued by "Le félin géant" (i.e. "The giant felid", doesn't exist in the Wikipedia english langage). According to the described fauna, the two novels happened in the North of the Asian continent.
Just look at how was represented one of the protagonist of the story, a giant lion, the same giant lion in both books (same author but two different illustrators):
Inside "The quest for fire": A kind of cave lion...
*This image is copyright of its original author
And inside "The giant felid": a very developed-maned lion "as tall as a human", hairy everywhere. Perhaps a vision we could have about the Natodomeri lion.
*This image is copyright of its original author
Rather funny isn'it ?