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+---- Thread: Freak Felids - A Discussion of History's Largest Felines (/topic-freak-felids-a-discussion-of-history-s-largest-felines)
RE: Freak Felids - A Discussion of History's Largest Felines - GrizzlyClaws - 09-26-2015
The only way to determine the Amur tiger size from the past is to bring up more analysis on their subfossils in Manchuria.
BTW, the prehistoric tigers should have predated on Gigantopithecus.
RE: Freak Felids - A Discussion of History's Largest Felines - GrizzlyClaws - 09-26-2015
The Ngandong tiger canines from Thailand even share some similarity with the Amur canines.
- A slope on the root.
- The edge of the crown is sharp and triangular.
Without the distortion that created by camara angle, these canines would looks quite similar to each other.
*This image is copyright of its original author
RE: Freak Felids - A Discussion of History's Largest Felines - tigerluver - 09-26-2015
@genao87, I think there was a poster actually named "Tiger Lover" on AvA, but I've always been "tigerluver" since I joined the community. Regardless, if we have met, sorry for forgetting. I hope life's treating you better now.
From what scant material we have left and chronological studies, it seems that the fossil tiger in China we've been looking at is more South China tiger-esque than the more recently evolved Amur tiger. There are a couple skulls in the American Natural History Museum up in New York, but they're too damaged to see if they were wide for their length. @GrizzlyClaws' subfossils may very well be a truer Amur, nonetheless.
For now, I assume that the earlier tiger had thinner skulls, based on the how the modern Amoy form looks today and the Ngandong skull. @GrizzlyClaws does point out that the large skull from China looks quite wide, but obviously we've lost that one from record for any analysis, and in person, relatively thinner cat skulls still look very impressive.
The two Pleistocene tiger skulls lack sagittal crests that the Amur form has today also. In felids as a whole, skulls have evolved to become wider and more impressive in the modern felids compared to the older ones. Cats came from a weasel-like animal, so the thinner skull are likely caused by the relatively closer relationship to the mother species of felidae.
Hooijer found a 42 mm upper p4 that may have been from an individual of a greatest skull length of over 445 mm when I used the Ngandong skull as a basis of estimation. That's a 350-380 kg cat by modern built. Ignoring robusticity, that is about the same mass as the largest Ngandong tiger based only on femur length (which I've estimated at around 400 kg). The thing that set the Ngandong tiger apart is it extremely wide bones, which has led me to find it weighing around 470 kg at the highest. (The mass estimates I'm giving here are not exactly what I have, as I can't publish exact data due to the embargo by prospective publishers, but they're functionally close enough). Maybe the Pleistocene Chinese tiger could be heavier for its frame as well, but we have not enough long bone data. If the new canine @GrizzlyClaws is truly of the Wahnsien tiger, then that may be of a 400 kg cat as well. What is problematioc about teeth is that they can sometimes be oversized or undersized relative to the true skull length, and thus estimating mass becomes a bit less reliable.
@GrizzlyClaws and @Fieryeel, does the second tooth look like a lower canine to you guys as well? If it is, it's out of the range of even the large leopard of the Sunda shelf. From the view in the first picture, the shape seem within the variation of cats and considering the accepted Ngandong mandible thinness is a characterizing trait.
RE: Freak Felids - A Discussion of History's Largest Felines - GrizzlyClaws - 09-26-2015
The leopard canine can reach close to 10 cm max, but it would typically weigh less than 40 grams.
BTW, @GuateGojira can you make an angle between the pic #2 and pic #3 with your special software?
With a similar angle shot, the modern tiger canine will look exactly same as the Ngandong tiger canine.
*This image is copyright of its original author
RE: Freak Felids - A Discussion of History's Largest Felines - tigerluver - 09-26-2015
@GrizzlyClaws, do you mean adjust the angle? Photoshop isn't too good with that, and I'm pretty that's what Guate uses (or maybe Gimp). If you'd like to make quick cut and pastes of photos, try pizap.com. I've been using that recently, as I'm too lazy to work with photoshop at the moment.
So do you believe that new canine is an upper or lower canine?
RE: Freak Felids - A Discussion of History's Largest Felines - GuateGojira - 09-26-2015
(09-26-2015, 08:55 AM)genao87 Wrote: Hey man, this is really nice if the Amur Tiger grew bigger in the past, I would like a reconstruction of how big it was and compare it to the Nnogtong Tiger and the Wooly Tiger.
Is it safe to assume that now the Amur Tiger has a more robust skull compare to the Bengal Tiger? That this was how the Amur was in the past and what it should be today, assuming there is enough food to support it.
I kind of think our ancestor and even the largest humanoids were cat food to these guys.
Hello @genao87, I do remember you from AVA. Nice to see you here.
About the skulls of Bengal and Amur tigers, in fact, these are two different forms that developed the best of the tiger world, reaching the same body size and weight. Bengal tigers skulls are less massive in comparison with those of the Amur region, but this is just from a visual point of view. @peter stated that in fact, Bengal tiger skulls seems broader and more heavier than those of the Amur specimens that he measured, and this from many specimens.
On average, Amur tiger skulls are longer and wider than those from Bengal, but this is probably caused by the size of the sample (over 50 of Bengals and less than 15 for Amur), besides the difference is currently of less than 2 cm! Besides, both cats had the longest canines recorded: Mazák (1981) recorded a canine of 7.45 cm probably for its largest skull (Amur) but the famous male "Madla" from India had canines of up to 7.6 cm measured at the gum line. Amur tigers generally had wider rostrums but the difference is negligible in the largest specimens.
Finally, the sagital crest is greatly developed in the Amur and Caspian tigers (more than any tiger or lion population), while the crest of the Bengal tigers is very small and comparable with other mainland populations. I guessed that the development of the large crest and canines in the Amur-Caspian tigers was because they prey wild boar more often than any other tiger population. Taking in count that the boars in the Caspian and the Amur region are the largest and that they are fully capable to fight back, even more than many deer and even the largest wild cattle, is possible that the northern tigers developed a stronger bite to kill faster that dangerous prey.
About the comparison, here is a new image of the Ngandong tiger (Panthera tigris soloensis) and the Bengal and Amur tigers, all scaled at they maximum sizes. In fact, the largest specimens of the Wanhsien tigers (Panthera tigris acutidens) in scientific collections are marginally larger than the largest modern Amur-Bengal specimens, so there is probably not big difference.
*This image is copyright of its original author
Private collections have Pleistocene tiger fossils from China that match those of the Ngandong tigers, however they had not been measured by scientists, which is a shame as those specimens seems magnificent.
Greetings.
RE: Freak Felids - A Discussion of History's Largest Felines - GuateGojira - 09-26-2015
(09-26-2015, 10:05 AM)GrizzlyClaw Wrote: BTW, @GuateGojira can you make an angle between the pic #2 and pic #3 with your special software?
With a similar angle shot, the modern tiger canine will look exactly same as the Ngandong tiger canine.
*This image is copyright of its original author
An angle? Can you put an example please?
By the way, I use Photoshop, just that.
RE: Freak Felids - A Discussion of History's Largest Felines - GrizzlyClaws - 09-26-2015
(09-26-2015, 10:18 AM)tigerluver Wrote: @GrizzlyClaws, do you mean adjust the angle? Photoshop isn't too good with that, and I'm pretty that's what Guate uses (or maybe Gimp). If you'd like to make quick cut and pastes of photos, try pizap.com. I've been using that recently, as I'm too lazy to work with photoshop at the moment.
So do you believe that new canine is an upper or lower canine?
Yes, I hope Guate doing some stunt to adjust a new angle for me.
@Fieryeel's new canine is a lower one, and the one that I request Guate to do an angle adjustment is an upper canine.
RE: Freak Felids - A Discussion of History's Largest Felines - GrizzlyClaws - 09-26-2015
(09-26-2015, 10:24 AM)GuateGojira Wrote:(09-26-2015, 10:05 AM)GrizzlyClaw Wrote: BTW, @GuateGojira can you make an angle between the pic #2 and pic #3 with your special software?
With a similar angle shot, the modern tiger canine will look exactly same as the Ngandong tiger canine.
*This image is copyright of its original author
An angle? Can you put an example please?
By the way, I use Photoshop, just that.
Guate, can you adjust an angle that is in between the angles of the pic #2 and pic #3?
If the angle is adjusted, and it could match the angle of the fossil canine.
RE: Freak Felids - A Discussion of History's Largest Felines - GrizzlyClaws - 09-27-2015
@Fieryeel, here is some lower canine teeth of the modern tigers.
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
RE: Freak Felids - A Discussion of History's Largest Felines - GrizzlyClaws - 09-27-2015
Here is the tiger canine teeth in set of four; including both upper canine teeth and lower canine teeth.
*This image is copyright of its original author
RE: Freak Felids - A Discussion of History's Largest Felines - GuateGojira - 09-27-2015
@GrizzlyClaws, is this adjust what you wanted?
*This image is copyright of its original author
If not, just tell me and I will make the change.
RE: Freak Felids - A Discussion of History's Largest Felines - GrizzlyClaws - 09-27-2015
No, I want you to make the angle of the canine similar to this one?
Can you flip the angle?
*This image is copyright of its original author
RE: Freak Felids - A Discussion of History's Largest Felines - GrizzlyClaws - 09-27-2015
This is a same canine that being taken with two different angles, but can you adjust the angle to make it similar to the fossil canine?
*This image is copyright of its original author
RE: Freak Felids - A Discussion of History's Largest Felines - sanjay - 09-27-2015
@GrizzlyClaws , What you are asking is not possible through any photo editing software including photoshop. You can only change the angle of entire image but not the subject in it (in your case it is canine). Changing the angle of image means you can rotate the entire image from vertical to horizontal or vice versa.
So you have to request the original owner to take the shot of image from different angle. Hope you understand it.