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+----- Thread: Avoca male lions (/topic-avoca-male-lions)
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RE: Avoca male lions - Tonpa - 02-06-2021
https://www.instagram.com/p/CK898m9gbOU/
Dark Mane alone today closer to Djuma
RE: Avoca male lions - Gijima - 02-06-2021
I hope DM puts in the work to reunite with his brothers and build trust with Mohawk. Blondie is fine but Mohawk will be difficult. All three had a strong bond in the past (same as Southern Avocas with each other) but Dark Mane is such a drama-free male, he mind not want to bother with this and return to the Talamatis.
Also, how quickly did these young NKs run off with DM?? Did they even know who he was? They were hardly with the pride when he was around...
*This image is copyright of its original author
couples on safari- Jan 2021
RE: Avoca male lions - Tr1x24 - 02-06-2021
(02-06-2021, 07:44 PM)Gijima Wrote: Also, how quickly did these young NKs run off with DM?? Did they even know who he was? They were hardly with the pride when he was around...
They knew him from the past, those 3 are often alone, they might break up in future, especially when they get cubs.
RE: Avoca male lions - Gijima - 02-06-2021
Yep I think they’ll break away too... no point in competing with 9 subadults for food. I was trying to remember if they were with Dark Mane in 2019.... I can’t remember any instance but maybe. There’s so much we don’t see... for all we know he’s been sneaking off to see them for a while lol.
RE: Avoca male lions - Tonpa - 02-07-2021
Simbavilli ranger posted these on her instagram story, both dark mane?
Credit to SabreWildlife
RE: Avoca male lions - Potato - 02-07-2021
(02-07-2021, 12:13 AM)Tonpa Wrote: Simbavilli ranger posted these on her instagram story, both dark mane?In first part of the video Mohawk and in the other DM.
Credit to SabreWildlife
RE: Avoca male lions - Tr1x24 - 02-09-2021
Throwback when DM last time visited his brothers in August 2019:
Mohawk was more chill then, but even there we can see him showing dominance over DM, he was standing over him and marking, just like in the video few days ago, also Blondie got the lioness for mating of the 3..
This is quite surprising for me, i didnt follow closely N. Avocas in younger days, but is there any evidence that DM was actually most dominant between the 3?
Everybody was saying that, so i didn't question that, but from this sightings, to me DM looks least dominant and most chill of the 3.. Maybe he was, before the injury..
Also in that visit, he reinjured his leg badly, and last was seen limping hard and going back north.. And he didnt visit his brothers since until now.. That indicates that he got injured in a fight for mating rights..
Did we misinterpreted DM? Is he actually hanging with Talamatis because his brothers where more dominant then him, so he didn't want to compete, rather then him being more dominant, which was everyone saying that he is..
Im starting to think thats the case.. because of his injury he cant fight and beat his 2 brothers, so he didnt want to be 3rd wheel and chosed Talamatis, no fights for mating rights or over a food..
I might be wrong tho, but to me this looks like that..
RE: Avoca male lions - Hairy tummy - 02-09-2021
Very interesting tr1x24, guess we will find out in the next couple of weeks, if dm sticks around
RE: Avoca male lions - Potato - 02-09-2021
(02-09-2021, 01:20 AM)Tr1x24 Wrote: Mohawk was more chill then, but even there we can see him showing dominance over DMI wouldn't call it "showing dominance" at all. Recently he did that, but on that video from August he just kindly greeted DM without any agression what so ever.
(02-09-2021, 01:20 AM)Tr1x24 Wrote: This is quite surprising for me, i didnt follow closely N. Avocas in younger days, but is there any evidence that DM was actually most dominant between the 3?
I never tracked Wild earth safari too much, but I heard on one of it that guide saying that DM is doing most mating on Nkuchuma females which was a bit suprising to me as he in fact even back then was seen much less in Djuma than other 2 Avocas. As far as I remember he was also the first one of the Avocas seen mating with Nkuchumas.
(02-09-2021, 01:20 AM)Tr1x24 Wrote: Is he actually hanging with Talamatis because his brothers where more dominant then himI do not think preferences of dominant males as to which pride he prefers to hang with have to do much if anythink with order of dominance within the coalition.
(02-09-2021, 01:20 AM)Tr1x24 Wrote: m starting to think thats the case.. because of his injury he cant fight and beat his 2 brothers, so he didnt want to be 3rd wheel and chosed TalamatisHe prefered Talamatis from the very begining, also before he got his injury. There wasn't much to compete for between Avocas since they sired their first generation untill now when younger Nkuchumas started to coming back in oestrus so we did not yet see how DM's injury affect his fighting abilitiesalthrough in recent updates his leg looked fine. We will most likely see unless DM decide to just turn back and return to TAlamatis.
RE: Avoca male lions - RookiePundit - 02-09-2021
Well as for Dark Mane injury history there is also this footage, where he managed to get bitten on the front paw by a hyena and limping afterwards
RE: Avoca male lions - Gijima - 02-09-2021
I think you’re reading way too much into that video. Mohawk is in no way showing dominance… he gave Dark Mane a friendly greeting and then they sat around together watching their brother with his girlfriend.
- Dark Mane’s injury was a broken bone. How would his brothers break his bones? And there was no puncture wound or bite mark anywhere near his legs. Most likely a buffalo step on him or he landed funny on his foot during the hunt that was caught on film that night.
- The very next day he’s cuddling and rubbing heads with Mohawk and Blondie— no drama.
- For the next month after his injury he is in Djuma and mates with that same lioness… so where is all this “dominance” and fear of his brothers? Not one time that month are any of the brothers even filmed snarling at each other. A very rare thing for any coalition with females around.
- He was last seen in Djuma with Blondie in Sept 2019, again taking a nap with him. That was his last interaction… completely peaceful as it’s always been. He didn’t go to the Talamaties because of a conflict. He always preferred them. Even after meeting the Torchwoods and mating when them, he left to be with the Talamatis
- DM was the first to mate with Nkuhumas. He was seen them way back in Feb 2019 when his brothers weren’t around. Blondie too was one of the first and Mohawk the last to mate with the Nkuhumas.
Why are people confused about the interaction between Mohawk and DM recently? My theory is that people always underestimated Mohawk. Because he’s not as “impressive” (whatever that means) they think he’s last in line, or less dominant. That was never the case. It’s the same reason I guess no one talks about the lesser maned S Avocas, although he was at the forefront with his brother during their nomadic years.
Secondly, Dark Mane’s personality confuses people. They expect dark-maned lions to be aggressive and beating the lights out of everyone. That’s just not Dark Mane. He has the personality of many older, mature lions. They don’t hounds females or fight 24/7. They tend to be a lot more laid back because they are confident. A guide was recently explaining how many dark-maned lions (and males of other species with high testosterone) tend to be loners. They have the confidence not to be with other males 24/7. It’s a sign of confidence and dominance, where as young coalitions will stick together all the time because they lack confidence. Dark Mane doesn’t even stay with the Talamatis that much… he really does his own thing and people will always misunderstand that.
^^ He clearly is not submissive, even to Mohawk.
RE: Avoca male lions - Tr1x24 - 02-09-2021
(02-09-2021, 05:13 AM)Gijima Wrote: I think you’re reading way too much into that video. Mohawk is in no way showing dominance… he gave Dark Mane a friendly greeting and then they sat around together watching their brother with his girlfriend
He has that injury way before August 2019, i said he reinjured the leg..
If im not mistaken, even when they came on Djuma in early 2018, DM was already limping on front leg..
But yea, maybe you are right, im reading too much into it, althrough his injury will definitely have an impact on hiearchy in coalition..
RE: Avoca male lions - Potato - 02-09-2021
"My theory is that people always underestimated Mohawk. Because he’s not as “impressive” (whatever that means) they think he’s last in line, or less dominant."
I do believe he is the least dominant because he was the last one of Avocas to mate with Nkuchuma females. Overall mating rights are by far the best way through which we can judge order of dominance within a coalition.
RE: Avoca male lions - Tr1x24 - 02-09-2021
(02-09-2021, 07:34 PM)Potato Wrote: "My theory is that people always underestimated Mohawk. Because he’s not as “impressive” (whatever that means) they think he’s last in line, or less dominant."
I do believe he is the least dominant because he was the last one of Avocas to mate with Nkuchuma females. Overall mating rights are by far the best way through which we can judge order of dominance within a coalition.
You have any evidence that he last mated with Nkuhuma lioness? There was 4-5 lionesses in estrus, so there was plenty of females for all 3 males..
Maybe when all 3 are full healthy, he is the least dominant because he is the smallest/weakest, but with DM injury got worse in 2019,since that time thats prob not the case anymore..
Dominance within lion coalitions changes daily almost because of numerous factors..
Saying that Mohawk is the least dominant, because he was in 2018 is rubish..
Im quite sure DM cant beat him in a fight with that injury.
If DM is still the most dominant since that last encounter in late 2019 (which he isnt), then theres no reason for him to follow Talamatis for over a a year, with 0 lionesses to mate with, and not challange his brothers, who are mating with Nkuhuma younger lionesses for over a year now..
He found them recently, and immidiately got dominated by Mohawk and was seen moving back north after that night..
DM might be the most dominant before 2019, but as his injury got worse in late 2019, im 100% sure he isnt anymore.
RE: Avoca male lions - Potato - 02-09-2021
(02-09-2021, 07:47 PM)Tr1x24 Wrote: You have any evidence that he last mated with Nkuhuma lioness? There was 4-5 lionesses in estrus, so there was plenty of females for all 3 males..I menant to write "he was of the Avocas SEEN mating", my bad. That is not an evidence althrough that + that DM is the largest of the 3 makes me believe he was/is the most dominant one.
(02-09-2021, 07:47 PM)Tr1x24 Wrote: Maybe when all 3 are full healthy, he is the least dominant because he is the smallest/weakest, but with DM injury got worse in 2019,since that time thats prob not the case anymore..
(02-09-2021, 07:47 PM)Tr1x24 Wrote: If DM is still the most dominant since that last encounter in late 2019 (which he isnt)
(02-09-2021, 07:47 PM)Tr1x24 Wrote: DM might be the most dominant before 2019, but as his injury got worse in late 2019, im 100% sure he isnt anymore.At that point those are only your own speculations purely based on that last video of their reunion with which some like me does not agree.
(02-09-2021, 07:47 PM)Tr1x24 Wrote: Dominance within lion coalitions changes daily almost because of numerous factors..It does not.
1. The more dominant male is the on who most often (not necessarily all the time) gets the most mating rights.
2. Males within the coalition can be more or less equally match and therefore sometime the less dominant male gets upper hand over the more dominant one. It doesn't mean tho order of dominance within a coalition changes permamently.
Sometimes order of dominance within a coalition can change due to one male having injury or disadvantage because of age difference, but it is rather rare.
(02-09-2021, 07:47 PM)Tr1x24 Wrote: Im quite sure DM cant beat him in a fight with that injury.1. Dominance often is settled purely through intimidation factor without fighting and in face NOrthern Avocas haven't been seen even once fighting eachothers or having any wounds which would indicate that such fights took place.
2. I wouldn't be so sure at all.
(02-09-2021, 07:47 PM)Tr1x24 Wrote: then theres no reason for him to follow Talamatis for over a a year, with 0 lionesses to mate withPride regularly providing easy meals all the time is not enough a reason? Beisde that in Talamati pride there is still one or two cubless lionesses. Recently DM was seen mating with Talamati lionesses.
(02-09-2021, 07:47 PM)Tr1x24 Wrote: He found them recently, and immidiately got dominated by Mohawk and was seen moving back north after that night..As far as I know in his most recent update he was still in Djuma.
(02-09-2021, 07:47 PM)Tr1x24 Wrote: DM might be the most dominant before 2019, but as his injury got worse in late 2019, im 100% sure he isnt anymore.His paw doesn't seem to be that bad.