+- WildFact (https://wildfact.com/forum)
+-- Forum: Information Section (https://wildfact.com/forum/forum-information-section)
+--- Forum: Terrestrial Wild Animals (https://wildfact.com/forum/forum-terrestrial-wild-animals)
+---- Forum: Wild Cats (https://wildfact.com/forum/forum-wild-cats)
+----- Forum: Lion (https://wildfact.com/forum/forum-lion)
+----- Thread: Avoca male lions (/topic-avoca-male-lions)
Pages:
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
27
28
29
30
31
32
33
34
35
36
37
38
39
40
41
42
43
44
45
46
47
48
49
50
51
52
53
54
55
56
57
58
59
60
61
62
63
64
65
66
67
68
69
70
71
72
73
74
75
76
77
78
79
80
81
82
83
84
85
86
87
88
89
90
91
92
93
94
95
96
97
98
99
100
101
102
103
104
105
106
107
108
109
110
111
112
113
114
115
116
117
118
119
120
121
122
123
124
125
126
127
128
129
130
131
132
133
134
135
136
137
138
139
140
141
142
143
144
145
146
147
148
149
150
151
152
153
154
155
156
157
158
159
160
161
162
163
164
165
166
167
168
169
170
171
172
173
174
175
176
177
178
179
180
181
182
183
184
185
186
187
188
RE: Avoca male lions - Tr1x24 - 03-26-2022
(03-26-2022, 04:58 AM)Hairy tummy Wrote: Which Birmingham boys were still around when the original clashes with the n avoca took place?
All except Scrapper, but Mfumo disappeared around that time, some think it might have something to do with N. Avocas, but there is no evidence what happened to Mfumo, he just disappeared.
Before arrival of Avocas, Bboys already started to vacant this area and moved south, Avocas fill the void, Bboys few times returned and there was few roaring battles and prob scirmishes with newcomers, but nothing too serious (from what we know), in the end Bboys decide is not worth it to fight for their former territory, and they just abandon it for good, they would do that regardless of Avocas arrival, but Avocas arrival made that procces quicker.
RE: Avoca male lions - DARK MANE - 03-26-2022
(03-26-2022, 01:55 PM)Tr1x24 Wrote:(03-26-2022, 12:42 PM)Potato Wrote: Northern Avocas are clearly on a downfall. If all 3 would reunite then that would have been a different story. As of now however DM as nomad on his own probably won't survive long. Blondie is being slowly consumed by TB (apart of consistant thin, the is also very poorly healing wound as another symptom confirming that he indeed has TB) and there is question mark how much he can add in potential competition with other lions. In that circumstances Avocas could have big problem if some young males would decide to challange them or if PC males would want to aquire more females which they could find in the form of Nkuchuma and Talamati pride (therefore push further north-east into Avocas territory).
Well i think they are safe for now, as long as they are 2, i dont see PC Boys challenging them in near future, PC boys just establish themselves in Singita, so they will most likely stay there for now and take stronger claim on that area, prob will try to push for prides in that area, which are Mhangenis. They already started mating with 1 female, so thats a good sign. It would be foolish for them to already risk that for 50:50 fight with N. Avocas.
There is no other real threat for N. Avocas in near future, N'ws will not push further north, north of them is 1 Imbali male and northeast now only 1 Kruger male as looks like other is gone.
As for young or up and coming coalitions, Kambulas and Talamatis are too young to be a threat for atleast another year and theres no such young coalitions in Manyeleti or Mluwati Concession. Only unknown is what is east from them in Kruger, area in which are 5th Mantimahle and son, but i dont think theres a big chance that some bigger coalition cames from there.
If we follow path of coalitions which dominated northern Sabi Sands in the past 15 yrs or so, those coalitions always came from the north (Manyeleti and Timbavati).
So i think N. Avocas are safe for atleast another year, potentialy 5 yrs of dominance for coalition of 2+1 is big success, especially if they manage to protect those Nkuhuma cubs to subadult age.
Very nicely explained.
Plus one more point is as far as PC males are concerned, it won't be any danger even if Blondie could not actively participate.
Plus lion world is very much unpredictable.
Who knows within 6 months we gonna 6 mayambula/birminghams/black dams males standing on the door of northern sabi sands
RE: Avoca male lions - Duco Ndona - 03-26-2022
With their southern expansion turning in a bust, the arrival of the PCmales as a serious challenge and the loss of Darkmane they sure had a disastrous year.
But that does not mean the next year will be the same.
RE: Avoca male lions - WildLeonis - 03-26-2022
(03-26-2022, 01:55 PM)Tr1x24 Wrote:(03-26-2022, 12:42 PM)Potato Wrote: Northern Avocas are clearly on a downfall. If all 3 would reunite then that would have been a different story. As of now however DM as nomad on his own probably won't survive long. Blondie is being slowly consumed by TB (apart of consistant thin, the is also very poorly healing wound as another symptom confirming that he indeed has TB) and there is question mark how much he can add in potential competition with other lions. In that circumstances Avocas could have big problem if some young males would decide to challange them or if PC males would want to aquire more females which they could find in the form of Nkuchuma and Talamati pride (therefore push further north-east into Avocas territory).
Well i think they are safe for now, as long as they are 2, i dont see PC Boys challenging them in near future, PC boys just establish themselves in Singita, so they will most likely stay there for now and take stronger claim on that area, prob will try to push for prides in that area, which are Mhangenis. They already started mating with 1 female, so thats a good sign. It would be foolish for them to already risk that for 50:50 fight with N. Avocas.
There is no other real threat for N. Avocas in near future, N'ws will not push further north, north of them is 1 Imbali male and northeast now only 1 Kruger male as looks like other is gone.
As for young or up and coming coalitions, Kambulas and Talamatis are too young to be a threat for atleast another year and theres no such young coalitions in Manyeleti or Mluwati Concession. Only unknown is what is east from them in Kruger, area in which are 5th Mantimahle and son, but i dont think theres a big chance that some bigger coalition cames from there.
If we follow path of coalitions which dominated northern Sabi Sands in the past 15 yrs or so, those coalitions always came from the north (Manyeleti and Timbavati).
So i think N. Avocas are safe for atleast another year, potentialy 5 yrs of dominance for coalition of 2+1 is big success, especially if they manage to protect those Nkuhuma cubs to subadult age.
I think they’ve established a legacy in Sabi Sands and have done very well thus far. How many cubs have they sired in total and how many were male? I know they had (9) cubs with the Talamatis whom DM successfully protected until they became sub-adults. I think (6) of those cubs were female and (3) were male. I believe all the sub females are accounted for. However, one of the sub males have not been seen in a while a may be presumed dead.
I’m a little fuzzy on Nkuhumas since WE left YT. Also when the pride moved south to Londolozi for about 2 years it was difficult to keep up with how their Avoca offspring were doing. I know that they had around (12) cubs? Ridgenose had (2) boys; Amber Eyes had (4) girls, Purple Eye had (2) girls and (1) boy and Chela had (3) don’t know what the genders were, but she lost those cubs. I believe the cubs by the other Nkuhuma lionesses survived to sub-adults. With one of Ridgenose’s sons dying last year due to injury. I’m not sure how many are still alive now. In addition to these cubs, the Avocas now have a 2nd set of cubs. I think it’s about (7) of them? Don’t know the genders.
So from my count they’ve sired (27) cubs in total? With at least (22) of which are still alive?
RE: Avoca male lions - Cath2020 - 03-27-2022
(03-26-2022, 04:46 AM)WildLeonis Wrote: @Trlx24 - Indeed. Time really does fly. I think the boys will be turning 9 this year. So they’ll be starting to move out of their prime into their “twilight” years. It’ll be interesting to see how things progress for them as they get older and younger coalitions move into the area.
I believe the Southern Avocas are now 9 this month. They have many young cubs, so I hope that they are able to hold on for another year or two. They have 3-4 subs in their main pride, but more cubs than that to protect.
RE: Avoca male lions - Hairy tummy - 03-27-2022
The nwaswishaka looked to have thrown a spanner in the n. Avoca's plans, wasnt so long ago that the n. Avoca looked like they were pushin the bboys out, seems a long time ago now
RE: Avoca male lions - Chris - 03-30-2022
How far away is Dark mane from his brothers at the moment?
RE: Avoca male lions - criollo2mil - 03-30-2022
(03-30-2022, 03:19 AM)Chris Wrote: How far away is Dark mane from his brothers at the moment?
The three red circles are proximations to where the North Avocas, DM and S Avocas are
RE: Avoca male lions - WildLeonis - 03-30-2022
Wow. He’s quite a ways away but very close to his other set of Avoca brothers. I imagine if he ran into them they would not be as tolerant as Blondie and Mohawk.
RE: Avoca male lions - DARK MANE - 03-30-2022
(03-30-2022, 07:27 AM)WildLeonis Wrote: Wow. He’s quite a ways away but very close to his other set of Avoca brothers. I imagine if he ran into them they would not be as tolerant as Blondie and Mohawk.I doubt if they even recognize him. They hadn't met since 2016 (when S. Avoca became nomads).
How would they remember their little brother Dark mane.
RE: Avoca male lions - Duco Ndona - 03-30-2022
If he left enough of an impression they will recognize him. We know that much from cases where released lions meet their old keeper and such.
Its more doubtfull they will care. Ultimately he is just another rival and threat.
RE: Avoca male lions - Potato - 03-30-2022
(03-30-2022, 10:07 AM)Duco Ndona Wrote: If he left enough of an impression they will recognize him.Even Mohawk and Blondie stopped recognizing him as his brother. It is absolutelly impossible that Southern Avocas will recognize DM as their brother.
RE: Avoca male lions - Duco Ndona - 03-30-2022
(03-30-2022, 01:37 PM)Potato Wrote:(03-30-2022, 10:07 AM)Duco Ndona Wrote: If he left enough of an impression they will recognize him.Even Mohawk and Blondie stopped recognizing him as his brother. It is absolutelly impossible that Southern Avocas will recognize DM as their brother.
There is a difference between recognizing and accepting.
The wild isn't forgiving enough to put family above all. If something happened between the three Avocas that soured the bonds to the point they kicked DM out, they are under no obligation to threat him as anything other than a rival outsider. No matter how fond the memories of him are.
Though one could argue that if DM wasn't related, Mohawk and Blondie would chased him off and taken over his pride a long time ago.
RE: Avoca male lions - Tr1x24 - 03-30-2022
"Family" or "relative" is not the same in humans and animals world.
Lions pretty much dont care about "bloodline" and if someone is their brother/sister, father/mother if they dont hang in the same group with them. There was many examples of sons killing fathers, fathers - sons, mothers - daughters, daughters - mothers etc.
For example, by that logic, young Othawa breakeaway female would be accepted back to Othawas, but she is not, because she is not part of that gruop anymore, and thats it.
Its all about gruop/pride/coalition in which they are and hang with atm.
As for DM and S. Avocas, theres no way they recognize him 6 yrs later, and lets say they do, that doesnt matter, he is not part of their coalition, he is enemy and he would get chased any maybe even killed.
Same goes for Nhenha and NK, theres almost no chance these guys know they are pretty much father and son after 4 years, they where even enemies last year, they might recognize familiar scent in each others (for example, Nhenha might recognize scent of Nkuhuma or Styx prides on him, and NK might have recognize some Bboys scent from young days, but that is less likely, as his whole nomadic life, he sees Bboys as danger, and not like caring fathers) but thats about it.
RE: Avoca male lions - sik94 - 03-30-2022
(03-30-2022, 01:52 PM)Duco Ndona Wrote: There is a difference between recognizing and accepting.
That's a good point and probably the best way of looking at this. Even house cats remember their owners after years so it's clearly not about memory, accepting is a totally different thing though.