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+--- Thread: Freak Specimens (/topic-freak-specimens)
RE: Freak Specimens - Roflcopters - 07-03-2014
(07-01-2014, 09:19 PM)'Pckts' Wrote:(07-01-2014, 05:24 AM)'Roflcopters' Wrote:(06-30-2014, 10:24 PM)'Pckts' Wrote:(06-30-2014, 08:26 AM)'Roflcopters' Wrote: Panna was nowhere near notorious for Large Tigers prior to the Conservation efforts of Dr.Raghu Chundawat. Infact it was one of the mellow Tiger Reserves that people hardly visited and by the time Brokentooth and Madla were weighed, they were plenty of large males from different parts of Central India.. now we're talking 2000-2004 time frame and males like Sultan (Tadoba) B2 (Bandhavgarh) Bokha (Bandhavgarh) Jabbar (Tadoba) Konda (Kanha) Laxmi's male (Kanha) were all still alive and kicking.. each and every single one of them stood out from their respective habitats.. I have talked to a countless people from the time i started with my tiger business and from all the research.. I've found that Madla and Hairyfoot's potential stopped at prime Bamera.. Wagdoh and the new offset of males like Jay, Katezari, Shivaji & Jobhi etc might be on the same league as Hairyfoot/Madla guys but Wagdoh is clearly the god father among them all.
[img]images/smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]
Prime Bamera is said to be between the 220-230kg range, two eye witnesses of him said the same thing here, so madla and hairyfoot where a considerable amount larger than Bamera.
But every single person who sees Waghdoh says he is the largest tiger they have ever seen outside of Kaziranga.
So Waghdoh could definitely be larger than Madla/hairyfoot
Please tell me you're joking, I can't take this post serious at all.
Thats what 2 eye witnesses said about him on this forum.
Posted 5 different accounts about people saying Waghdoh is much largere than Bamera.
So not exactly sure what you problem with the post would be.
Please elaborate
two eyewitnesses from this forum over more than a dozen people i am regularly in contact with? are you kidding me? how do you think i acquire most of my pictures.. and I agree Wagdoh is way larger than Bamera but the difference can't be over 30kg imho. keep in mind, before Wagdoh's emergence as the King of Tadoba's Mohurli range. Bamera was considered one of the largest male from Central India and a large male from Central India would just tip the 220-230kg capacity scale doesn't make any sense. Infact, even B2 his father was one of the biggest male in his time and Bamera was even bigger than him so are you saying, B2 and Bamera are just average tigers? Bamera was literally all over the news, I've covered Bamera since the time he first appeared on the radar.
I generally always avoid topics like this because it takes alot of my time to find pictures and add to the menu, unfortunately. I don't have that time right now but use logic. Madla and Hairyfoot were only big because they were weighed, most known huge males don't even get weighed and have gone down without getting the stardom they deserved. B2, Bokha, Konda, Banda, Pench's Charger, Shamsher of Nagzira, Jay, Shivaji, Katezari, Jobhi, Mukunda, Yeda Anna, Basant Bandhara, Sultan, Jabbar, Melghat's large male that had a territory covering 3/4 of the park.. point is, none of them were ever weighed so we don't know how to compare them with the likes of Hairyfoot/Madla.. this is when i turn to eyewitnesses and out of everyone i've ever talked to. no one put Bamera as an underdog.
RE: Freak Specimens - peter - 07-03-2014
One thing to remember is it is very difficult to assess the weight of a big cat. Every time I measured and weighed captive big cats, I asked everyone present to give me their estimates on length and weight. Most of 'm saw these animals every day. When I compared their bets with the actual results, the differences were remarkable. Not one of the dozens involved got to within 20 pounds and 10 inches. Ever. Vets included.
In general, people tend to overestimate lions and underestimate tigers. The reason is they look at animals in the same way they look at people. They start with the mental picture, meaning aggressive (is important) animals not to be trifled with are estimated way over their actual qualities. Then they go to the head. Lions, apart from being aggressive as a rule, have big skulls and a mane. They also like a good show. Finally, they look at the front. Chest, shoulders and stockyness. Lions have big skulls, a mane, a shortish, but stocky body, an attitude and they are tall at the shoulder. It usually doesn't take 'm long to get to the conclusion lions are bigger and more fearful. This is how people get to estimates and this is how I get rich. That's why betting is a lucrative business. Always was and always will be.
When you look at reliable info collected by vets and hunters, the conclusion is adult captive male big cats in good health have about a kg. per cm. length (head and body) when the proportions are more or less normal. Smaller animals get to 0,8 or 0,9 kg. per cm. and big ones reach 1,2 tot 1,3 kg. per cm. Fat cats are much heavier. Lions stick to about a kg. per cm. most of the time, but tigers show more variation.
The heaviest lion I know of, at 216,7 cm. in head and body (straight), was 280 kg. (weighed by Dr. P. van Bree) and the heaviest Amur, at 210 cm. in head and body (straight), was estimated at 280-300 kg. (the Duisburg Zoo tiger measured by Dr. Gewalt). The difference was a result of limbs and skull, I think. The skull of the Duisburg Zoo tiger seemed quite a bit larger to me (I measured the skull of the 280 kg. captive lion and saw a lot of pictures of the Duisburg Zoo tiger).
Captive big cats usually are heavier than their wild relatives, but that is a result of excessive food and fat in many cases. The usual difference between captive and wild is about 10% in favour of captive (a bit more in lions and a bit less in tigers), meaning captive lions outweigh their wild relatives by about 35-50 pounds.
The only subspecies in which wild animals are heavier than their captive relatives is the Indian tiger. We know wild Indian male tigers in different regions (transients, young adults and prime animals) ranged between 170-210 kg. roughly (at the level of average) about a century ago. We also know the 20 odd males weighed in the last decades ranged between 200-260 kg. (not one below 200 kg.). Finally, we know large prime males today often reach 500-550 pounds (and up to 600 and even over in two cases). The conclusion, therefore, is Indian tigers, of those actually weighed, are heavier than a century ago. They also are the heaviest wild big cats today.
The last questions are average and max. My guess for now is somewhere between 420-460 for all healthy wild adult males and about 650-680 empty for the largest (Sunderbans and Naga Hills not included), but Kazirangha males still are an enigma. Maybe they are average-sized and massive and maybe they are big all the way. I don't know. I wouldn't be surprised if they find one well over 700 one day, but animals of that size would be exceptional. The difference between average (say 440-450) and largest (say 650-700) would be 50-60% and possibly a bit over (and not 30-40%, as many suggested).
I noticed a similar trend in skulls. Indian skulls are below the Amurs and those of most lions (averages), but they are relatively massive (wide and heavy). The question is why. The best answer would be density and it seems to be a result of conditions, as captive Indian tigers (who range between 165-210 kg. -average 180-185 kg.- in Indian zoos) are not as heavy as their wild relatives (difference 10-12% in favour of wild). These 'conditions' point towards large prey animals and intense competetition in reserves. I would go for competition for now, as that would be the main difference with a century ago. Captive tigers seem to keep specific characters (subspecies) for about 1-2 generations only. The reason is they seem to be more responsive to circumstances than other big cats. Most tigers quickly degenerate in captivity.
I wouldn't be bothered about the reports of 'eyewitnesses', as they are known to be notoriously unreliable. Ask the police and Roy Bean. The only criterium is reliable info and what we have is 200-260 kg. for adult males in India so far, but many large animals will never be weighed and measured. If you want to get to an estimate yourself, start with the skull and the relative proportions. Than get to the limbs. More important than chest and spine, so it seems. In tigers, that is.
One last remark in order to prevent problems with those posters offering estimates. Everyone having a go at weights is encouraged to do so, as it helps us getting an idea of specific animals. Most wild animals will never be weighed, which is a pity. All I was saying is my experience says there is a big difference between estimates and reality in captive big cats. No insult intended and none taken, I hope. Ok?
RE: Freak Specimens - sanjay - 07-03-2014
Great Article Peter, Thanks for information on Indian Tigers.
RE: Freak Specimens - Pckts - 07-03-2014
(07-03-2014, 10:36 AM)'Roflcopters' Wrote:(07-01-2014, 09:19 PM)'Pckts' Wrote:(07-01-2014, 05:24 AM)'Roflcopters' Wrote:(06-30-2014, 10:24 PM)'Pckts' Wrote:(06-30-2014, 08:26 AM)'Roflcopters' Wrote: Panna was nowhere near notorious for Large Tigers prior to the Conservation efforts of Dr.Raghu Chundawat. Infact it was one of the mellow Tiger Reserves that people hardly visited and by the time Brokentooth and Madla were weighed, they were plenty of large males from different parts of Central India.. now we're talking 2000-2004 time frame and males like Sultan (Tadoba) B2 (Bandhavgarh) Bokha (Bandhavgarh) Jabbar (Tadoba) Konda (Kanha) Laxmi's male (Kanha) were all still alive and kicking.. each and every single one of them stood out from their respective habitats.. I have talked to a countless people from the time i started with my tiger business and from all the research.. I've found that Madla and Hairyfoot's potential stopped at prime Bamera.. Wagdoh and the new offset of males like Jay, Katezari, Shivaji & Jobhi etc might be on the same league as Hairyfoot/Madla guys but Wagdoh is clearly the god father among them all.
[img]images/smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]
Prime Bamera is said to be between the 220-230kg range, two eye witnesses of him said the same thing here, so madla and hairyfoot where a considerable amount larger than Bamera.
But every single person who sees Waghdoh says he is the largest tiger they have ever seen outside of Kaziranga.
So Waghdoh could definitely be larger than Madla/hairyfoot
Please tell me you're joking, I can't take this post serious at all.
Thats what 2 eye witnesses said about him on this forum.
Posted 5 different accounts about people saying Waghdoh is much largere than Bamera.
So not exactly sure what you problem with the post would be.
Please elaborate
two eyewitnesses from this forum over more than a dozen people i am regularly in contact with? are you kidding me? how do you think i acquire most of my pictures.. and I agree Wagdoh is way larger than Bamera but the difference can't be over 30kg imho. keep in mind, before Wagdoh's emergence as the King of Tadoba's Mohurli range. Bamera was considered one of the largest male from Central India and a large male from Central India would just tip the 220-230kg capacity scale doesn't make any sense. Infact, even B2 his father was one of the biggest male in his time and Bamera was even bigger than him so are you saying, B2 and Bamera are just average tigers? Bamera was literally all over the news, I've covered Bamera since the time he first appeared on the radar.
I generally always avoid topics like this because it takes alot of my time to find pictures and add to the menu, unfortunately. I don't have that time right now but use logic. Madla and Hairyfoot were only big because they were weighed, most known huge males don't even get weighed and have gone down without getting the stardom they deserved. B2, Bokha, Konda, Banda, Pench's Charger, Shamsher of Nagzira, Jay, Shivaji, Katezari, Jobhi, Mukunda, Yeda Anna, Basant Bandhara, Sultan, Jabbar, Melghat's large male that had a territory covering 3/4 of the park.. point is, none of them were ever weighed so we don't know how to compare them with the likes of Hairyfoot/Madla.. this is when i turn to eyewitnesses and out of everyone i've ever talked to. no one put Bamera as an underdog.
Bamera very well can be a 250kg plus, but from what I have read and seen, he is quoted as big, muscalar but always smaller than Wag. and on the shorter side, quoted from a few.
B2 was the smallest of his brothers, Correct?
I know there are tons of unweighed tigers that could easily be huge weights, I would never deny that. But looking at all tiger weights I can find throughout history, I think 220-230kg is a large sized tiger. I don't think I am doing Big Bam a disservice by saying that, I could easily be off by 20kg but I think If he was empty bellied, 220-230kg is a large tiger.
IMO
RE: Freak Specimens - Pckts - 07-03-2014
Peter and Copters,
What would you guys estimate Bam at?
RE: Freak Specimens - Roflcopters - 07-04-2014
(07-03-2014, 09:45 PM)'Pckts' Wrote:(07-03-2014, 10:36 AM)'Roflcopters' Wrote:(07-01-2014, 09:19 PM)'Pckts' Wrote:(07-01-2014, 05:24 AM)'Roflcopters' Wrote:(06-30-2014, 10:24 PM)'Pckts' Wrote:(06-30-2014, 08:26 AM)'Roflcopters' Wrote: Panna was nowhere near notorious for Large Tigers prior to the Conservation efforts of Dr.Raghu Chundawat. Infact it was one of the mellow Tiger Reserves that people hardly visited and by the time Brokentooth and Madla were weighed, they were plenty of large males from different parts of Central India.. now we're talking 2000-2004 time frame and males like Sultan (Tadoba) B2 (Bandhavgarh) Bokha (Bandhavgarh) Jabbar (Tadoba) Konda (Kanha) Laxmi's male (Kanha) were all still alive and kicking.. each and every single one of them stood out from their respective habitats.. I have talked to a countless people from the time i started with my tiger business and from all the research.. I've found that Madla and Hairyfoot's potential stopped at prime Bamera.. Wagdoh and the new offset of males like Jay, Katezari, Shivaji & Jobhi etc might be on the same league as Hairyfoot/Madla guys but Wagdoh is clearly the god father among them all.
[img]images/smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]
Prime Bamera is said to be between the 220-230kg range, two eye witnesses of him said the same thing here, so madla and hairyfoot where a considerable amount larger than Bamera.
But every single person who sees Waghdoh says he is the largest tiger they have ever seen outside of Kaziranga.
So Waghdoh could definitely be larger than Madla/hairyfoot
Please tell me you're joking, I can't take this post serious at all.
Thats what 2 eye witnesses said about him on this forum.
Posted 5 different accounts about people saying Waghdoh is much largere than Bamera.
So not exactly sure what you problem with the post would be.
Please elaborate
two eyewitnesses from this forum over more than a dozen people i am regularly in contact with? are you kidding me? how do you think i acquire most of my pictures.. and I agree Wagdoh is way larger than Bamera but the difference can't be over 30kg imho. keep in mind, before Wagdoh's emergence as the King of Tadoba's Mohurli range. Bamera was considered one of the largest male from Central India and a large male from Central India would just tip the 220-230kg capacity scale doesn't make any sense. Infact, even B2 his father was one of the biggest male in his time and Bamera was even bigger than him so are you saying, B2 and Bamera are just average tigers? Bamera was literally all over the news, I've covered Bamera since the time he first appeared on the radar.
I generally always avoid topics like this because it takes alot of my time to find pictures and add to the menu, unfortunately. I don't have that time right now but use logic. Madla and Hairyfoot were only big because they were weighed, most known huge males don't even get weighed and have gone down without getting the stardom they deserved. B2, Bokha, Konda, Banda, Pench's Charger, Shamsher of Nagzira, Jay, Shivaji, Katezari, Jobhi, Mukunda, Yeda Anna, Basant Bandhara, Sultan, Jabbar, Melghat's large male that had a territory covering 3/4 of the park.. point is, none of them were ever weighed so we don't know how to compare them with the likes of Hairyfoot/Madla.. this is when i turn to eyewitnesses and out of everyone i've ever talked to. no one put Bamera as an underdog.
Bamera very well can be a 250kg plus, but from what I have read and seen, he is quoted as big, muscalar but always smaller than Wag. and on the shorter side, quoted from a few.
B2 was the smallest of his brothers, Correct?
I know there are tons of unweighed tigers that could easily be huge weights, I would never deny that. But looking at all tiger weights I can find throughout history, I think 220-230kg is a large sized tiger. I don't think I am doing Big Bam a disservice by saying that, I could easily be off by 20kg but I think If he was empty bellied, 220-230kg is a large tiger.
IMO
you're right, B2 was the less dominant male out of all his brothers and I agree with your last statement..
Quote:Peter and Copters,
What would you guys estimate Bam at?
Honestly, I have no idea but i think he had the potential to be 250kg in his prime days.. [img]images/smilies/tongue.gif[/img]
RE: Freak Specimens - Amnon242 - 07-04-2014
(06-07-2014, 02:17 AM)Pckts Wrote: I believe this one from the Czech zoo is over 500lbs but not positive.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=uO-ERU7BY5A
In this video the male tiger (called "Baikal") is around 250 kg (weighted). I don´t know the weight of the female but she is no way over 500 lbs. She is ....perhaps 150 kg?
Tiger Oasis in Slovakia
http://www.milanfoto.eu/displayimage.php?album=151&pid=3976#top_display_media
http://www.milanfoto.eu/displayimage.php?album=151&pid=3985#top_display_media
RE: Freak Specimens - Pckts - 07-06-2014
Wow, The tiger Oasis in Slovakia pictures are amazing, massive cat
RE: Freak Specimens - Wanderfalke - 07-06-2014
(07-04-2014, 12:54 PM)'Amnon242' Wrote:(06-07-2014, 02:17 AM)'Pckts' Wrote: I believe this one from the Czech zoo is over 500lbs but not positive.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=uO-ERU7BY5A
In this video the male tiger (called "Baikal") is around 250 kg (weighted). I don´t know the weight of the female but she is no way over 500 lbs. She is ....perhaps 150 kg?
Tiger Oasis in Slovakia
http://www.milanfoto.eu/displayimage.php?album=151&pid=3976#top_display_media
http://www.milanfoto.eu/displayimage.php?album=151&pid=3985#top_display_media
Big cats by any means! Would love to know if they´re pure breed.
RE: Freak Specimens - Roflcopters - 07-06-2014
Pckts, can you guess who this male is..
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
[img]images/smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]
RE: Freak Specimens - Pckts - 07-06-2014
The bottom pic is the Madla female, correct? A tank in her own right.
RE: Freak Specimens - Roflcopters - 07-06-2014
Yeah all of the pics are of Madla's and the last one is Madla with Julie. [img]images/smilies/tongue.gif[/img]
RE: Freak Specimens - Pckts - 07-06-2014
I would put her in the 180kg even close to 200kg if gorged. We know how large madla was, she looked like a smaller version of him.
RE: Freak Specimens - Apollo - 07-07-2014
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
RE: Freak Specimens - Amnon242 - 07-07-2014
(07-06-2014, 04:53 AM)Wanderfalke Wrote:(07-04-2014, 12:54 PM)'Amnon242' Wrote:(06-07-2014, 02:17 AM)'Pckts' Wrote: I believe this one from the Czech zoo is over 500lbs but not positive.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=uO-ERU7BY5A
In this video the male tiger (called "Baikal") is around 250 kg (weighted). I don´t know the weight of the female but she is no way over 500 lbs. She is ....perhaps 150 kg?
Tiger Oasis in Slovakia
http://www.milanfoto.eu/displayimage.php?album=151&pid=3976#top_display_media
http://www.milanfoto.eu/displayimage.php?album=151&pid=3985#top_display_media
Big cats by any means! Would love to know if they´re pure breed.
I don´t think so. They say that those tigers are pure siberians, but I´d say that these tigers are basically circus tigers...
BTW there are more than 30 tigers in there and also 3 lions. This tiger is called "Amur" and he is probably not the biggest. As I know, biggest tigers in there are Rocky and Marecek.
Anyway...Tiger Oasis is a controversial facility...
I have never been there...and I don´t plan to visit them...