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+--- Thread: Freak Specimens (/topic-freak-specimens)
RE: Freak Specimens - GrizzlyClaws - 06-20-2014
The bone clone skull is extremely overinflated, no cat in the history got a 483mm skull.
Although the longest skull of the Panthera spelaea fossilis is 485mm, but it was proportionally narrower and less robust.
RE: Freak Specimens - GuateGojira - 06-20-2014
(06-20-2014, 10:21 AM)'GrizzlyClaws' Wrote: The bone clone skull is extremely overinflated, no cat in the history got a 483mm skull.100% true. In one occasion, I write to them, showing that the skull size of the Longdang “tiger” (Panthera zdanskyi) in the web page was smaller than the one in the document. They answer was that the sizes on the webpage are “approximations” of the real size.
Although the longest skull of the Panthera spelaea fossilis is 485mm, but it was proportionally narrower and less robust.
So, the Panthera atrox skull of 467.5 mm, which is 18.4 inches, was approximated at 19 inches in the page, but this is NOT the real size of the skull. [img]images/smilies/angry.gif[/img]
I suggest to do not use the sizes in Bone Clones or in any other page, unless than the given figures were in centimeters, millimeters or at least, just like the one of the scientific documents.
RE: Freak Specimens - GrizzlyClaws - 06-20-2014
(06-20-2014, 10:28 AM)'GuateGojira' Wrote:(06-20-2014, 10:21 AM)'GrizzlyClaws' Wrote: The bone clone skull is extremely overinflated, no cat in the history got a 483mm skull.100% true. In one occasion, I write to them, showing that the skull size of the Longdang “tiger” (Panthera zdanskyi) in the web page was smaller than the one in the document. They answer was that the sizes on the webpage are “approximations” of the real size.
Although the longest skull of the Panthera spelaea fossilis is 485mm, but it was proportionally narrower and less robust.
So, the Panthera atrox skull of 467.5 mm, which is 18.4 inches, was approximated at 19 inches in the page, but this is NOT the real size of the skull. [img]images/smilies/angry.gif[/img]
I suggest to do not use the sizes in Bone Clones or in any other page, unless than the given figures were in centimeters, millimeters or at least, just like the one of the scientific documents.
The producer probably has the difficulty to convert cm/mm into inch.
It is 46.75/2.5 = 18.7, and voila with round up they got a 19 inches skull.
An inch is actually 2.54cm, but i think they have rounded up this as well.
That 19 inches skull is virtually impossible for any cat in the history, and even the largest Cromerian lion has reached this length, but still nowhere close to the overall dimension.
RE: Freak Specimens - Apollo - 06-20-2014
@Guate
Thanks alot for the info and data.
Thanks again for clearing out my doubts.
But I still have some doubts and I hope you can help me here
Asper your data posted by Pckts
Ngandong tiger
Body size:
* Head-body length: 210 – 230 cm.
* Total length: 316 – 345 cm.
* Shoulder height: 115 cm.
* Weight: "By the way, the body mass of the Ngandong tiger (P. t. soloensis) must be updated. The new investigations made by Tigerluver and me put the body mass of this great cat between 370 kg (using the Christiansen & Harris (2005) equations) and 415 kg (Tigerluver new equations). This surpasses the weight of the largest Panthera atrox and Panthera (leo) fossilis and match with the largest Smilodon populator."
Panthera leo fossilis
About the size of Panthera atrox, probably up to 320 kg and estimated at 240 cm in head-body length.
Panthera leo spelaea
Large animal, 8-10% larger than modern lions. Largest skull of 420 cm. WaveRiders mentioned one of c.440 cm, but no evidence was presented. It probably weighed up to 300 kg, although this is debatable. Body length estimated at 220 cm.
Panthera Atrox
* Head and Body Length: 1.6 - 2.5 m (5.3 - 8.2 ft) (Shaw 2005)
* Tail Length: .5 - .8 m (1.7 - 2.7 ft) (Shaw 2005)
Source: http://library.sandiegozoo.org/factsheet...erican.htm
The maximum shoulder height estimated by Turner & Anton (1996) was of 125 cm.
Average weight : 250Kg (upto 320Kg)
My doubt is eventhough these cats are similar in dimensions, the Ngandong tiger seems to outweigh all of them by a big margin.
Panthera leo fossilis and Panthera atrox seems to get higher headbody length of 240cm and shoulder height 125cm when compared to Ngandong tiger (Head body length 230cm and Shoulder height 115cm) but still they weigh less than the Ngandong tiger. What is the reason ? Is there is any difference in the body construction ?
RE: Freak Specimens - Apollo - 06-20-2014
@GrizzlyClaws
"Some Panthera spelaea fossilis specimens are huge with the skull of over 19 inches long, but proportionally narrower and less robust."
"Although the longest skull of the Panthera spelaea fossilis is 485mm, but it was proportionally narrower and less robust."
"That 19 inches skull is virtually impossible for any cat in the history, and even the largest Cromerian lion has reached this length, but still nowhere close to the overall dimension."
So these cats had narrow elongated skulls unlike the modern tigers and lions ?
Do you have any model pics of how these cats would have looked (I mean the skull and head) ?
RE: Freak Specimens - GrizzlyClaws - 06-20-2014
(06-20-2014, 12:53 PM)'Apollo' Wrote: @Guate
Thanks alot for the info and data.
Thanks again for clearing out my doubts.
But I still have some doubts and I hope you can help me here
Asper your data posted by Pckts
Ngandong tiger
Body size:
* Head-body length: 210 – 230 cm.
* Total length: 316 – 345 cm.
* Shoulder height: 115 cm.
* Weight: "By the way, the body mass of the Ngandong tiger (P. t. soloensis) must be updated. The new investigations made by Tigerluver and me put the body mass of this great cat between 370 kg (using the Christiansen & Harris (2005) equations) and 415 kg (Tigerluver new equations). This surpasses the weight of the largest Panthera atrox and Panthera (leo) fossilis and match with the largest Smilodon populator."
Panthera leo fossilis
About the size of Panthera atrox, probably up to 320 kg and estimated at 240 cm in head-body length.
Panthera leo spelaea
Large animal, 8-10% larger than modern lions. Largest skull of 420 cm. WaveRiders mentioned one of c.440 cm, but no evidence was presented. It probably weighed up to 300 kg, although this is debatable. Body length estimated at 220 cm.
Panthera Atrox
* Head and Body Length: 1.6 - 2.5 m (5.3 - 8.2 ft) (Shaw 2005)
* Tail Length: .5 - .8 m (1.7 - 2.7 ft) (Shaw 2005)
Source: http://library.sandiegozoo.org/factsheet...erican.htm
The maximum shoulder height estimated by Turner & Anton (1996) was of 125 cm.
Average weight : 250Kg (upto 320Kg)
My doubt is eventhough these cats are similar in dimensions, the Ngandong tiger seems to outweigh all of them by a big margin.
Panthera leo fossilis and Panthera atrox seems to get higher headbody length of 240cm and shoulder height 125cm when compared to Ngandong tiger (Head body length 230cm and Shoulder height 115cm) but still they weigh less than the Ngandong tiger. What is the reason ? Is there is any difference in the body construction ?
The largest Ngandong tiger is like Baikal, standing about 4 feet tall at shoulder and being 8 feet in the head+body length.
When the body dimension is similar, the tiger-like cat often weighs more than the lion-like cat.
RE: Freak Specimens - GrizzlyClaws - 06-20-2014
(06-20-2014, 01:01 PM)'Apollo' Wrote: @GrizzlyClaws
"Some Panthera spelaea fossilis specimens are huge with the skull of over 19 inches long, but proportionally narrower and less robust."
"Although the longest skull of the Panthera spelaea fossilis is 485mm, but it was proportionally narrower and less robust."
"That 19 inches skull is virtually impossible for any cat in the history, and even the largest Cromerian lion has reached this length, but still nowhere close to the overall dimension."
So these cats had narrow elongated skulls unlike the modern tigers and lions ?
Do you have any model pics of how these cats would have looked (I mean the skull and head) ?
I have read the paper in last year, but i didn't manage to save it.
Maybe Guate still has the paper right now.
Yes, these Cromerian lions don't have robust skull, pretty much elongated, and the canines are also proportionally smaller.
RE: Freak Specimens - tigerluver - 06-20-2014
(06-20-2014, 12:53 PM)Apollo Wrote: My doubt is eventhough these cats are similar in dimensions, the Ngandong tiger seems to outweigh all of them by a big margin.
Panthera leo fossilis and Panthera atrox seems to get higher headbody length of 240cm and shoulder height 125cm when compared to Ngandong tiger (Head body length 230cm and Shoulder height 115cm) but still they weigh less than the Ngandong tiger. What is the reason ? Is there is any difference in the body construction ?
From the data I've been working with, tigers are proportionately heavier in terms of bone length than lions. The difference is least in femur length, but still significant. And as body size is cubic, the proportionality difference gets even greater at the prehistoric high end estimates. Tigers might have denser bones, as peter noted some of his tiger skulls were very dense. Tiger canines also seem to be the most dense. No studies have been done on their long bones yet, give me a few more college years [img]images/smilies/tongue.gif[/img]. Tigers are also proportionately longer, and thus there is more core body, thus maybe more weight. I feel the length discrepancy is offset by the lion's greater height, thus I favor the dense bones theory, as even though tiger bones are relatively thin compared to lions, they whole animal still weighs more with equal dimensions.
RE: Freak Specimens - tigerluver - 06-20-2014
(06-20-2014, 07:27 PM)GrizzlyClaws Wrote:(06-20-2014, 01:01 PM)'Apollo' Wrote: @GrizzlyClaws
"Some Panthera spelaea fossilis specimens are huge with the skull of over 19 inches long, but proportionally narrower and less robust."
"Although the longest skull of the Panthera spelaea fossilis is 485mm, but it was proportionally narrower and less robust."
"That 19 inches skull is virtually impossible for any cat in the history, and even the largest Cromerian lion has reached this length, but still nowhere close to the overall dimension."
So these cats had narrow elongated skulls unlike the modern tigers and lions ?
Do you have any model pics of how these cats would have looked (I mean the skull and head) ?
I have read the paper in last year, but i didn't manage to save it.
Maybe Guate still has the paper right now.
Yes, these Cromerian lions don't have robust skull, pretty much elongated, and the canines are also proportionally smaller.
Here you go:
https://www.mediafire.com/?2v51rox1e2ki0jr
The largest late middle Cave lion skull is 9.7 mm shorter than the largest early cave lion skull, and it might be possible that these two specimens were equal in size, due to the fact that the early variety and thinner and longer skulls. The earlier catss also seemed to have longer skulls for their body (derived from observation of nasal apertures).
RE: Freak Specimens - GrizzlyClaws - 06-20-2014
(06-20-2014, 09:58 PM)'tigerluver' Wrote:(06-20-2014, 07:27 PM)'GrizzlyClaws' Wrote:(06-20-2014, 01:01 PM)'Apollo' Wrote: @GrizzlyClaws
"Some Panthera spelaea fossilis specimens are huge with the skull of over 19 inches long, but proportionally narrower and less robust."
"Although the longest skull of the Panthera spelaea fossilis is 485mm, but it was proportionally narrower and less robust."
"That 19 inches skull is virtually impossible for any cat in the history, and even the largest Cromerian lion has reached this length, but still nowhere close to the overall dimension."
So these cats had narrow elongated skulls unlike the modern tigers and lions ?
Do you have any model pics of how these cats would have looked (I mean the skull and head) ?
I have read the paper in last year, but i didn't manage to save it.
Maybe Guate still has the paper right now.
Yes, these Cromerian lions don't have robust skull, pretty much elongated, and the canines are also proportionally smaller.
Here you go:
https://www.mediafire.com/?2v51rox1e2ki0jr
The largest late Cave lion skull is 9.7 mm shorter than the largest early cave lion skull, and it might be possible that these two specimens were equal in size, due to the fact that the early variety and thinner and longer skulls. The earlier catss also seemed to have longer skulls for their body (derived from observation of nasal apertures).
The 475mm skull belongs to a late Panthera spelaea fossilis, while the largest early Panthera spelaea spelaea has the largest skull of 451mm.
BTW, all early and late Panthera spelaea fossils got very long and thinner skull, while Panthera spelaea spelaea seems to be more massively built.
RE: Freak Specimens - tigerluver - 06-20-2014
You're right, I forgot to put "middle" after late in my last post.
Even then, the skull widening had been in effect, so we probably have two equal sized giants.
RE: Freak Specimens - GrizzlyClaws - 06-20-2014
(06-20-2014, 10:37 PM)'tigerluver' Wrote: You're right, I forgot to put "middle" after late in my last post.
Even then, the skull widening had been in effect, so we probably have two equal sized giants.
It was in an intermediate transtional phase, wider than the earlier variant, but still less robust compared to Panthera spelaea spelaea and the modern big cats.
BTW, i personally think the unknown specimen discovered in the western Russia might be the largest cave lion specimen so far. Maybe it is a Panthera spelaea spelaea specimen.
This skull might not be the longest one, but definitely the most massive one. Since it is partially broken, thus is impossible to determine its full greatest length. But i can assume it is no less than 460mm and definitely the most massive skull ever known.
When they reconstruct the specimen, it shows the cat is about the size of Baikal.
RE: Freak Specimens - tigerluver - 06-21-2014
Is this the skull you're referring to?
http://www.paleorestavration.com/Projects.rus.html
RE: Freak Specimens - GrizzlyClaws - 06-21-2014
(06-21-2014, 12:01 AM)'tigerluver' Wrote: Is this the skull you're referring to?
http://www.paleorestavration.com/Projects.rus.html
Yeah, it is this one.
According to Waverider, this skull is dimensionally larger than the largest Panthera atrox skull, so i think it might give a shot to the two largest Panthera spelaea fossilis skulls which are supposed to be proportionally thinner.
RE: Freak Specimens - Apollo - 06-22-2014
(06-20-2014, 07:23 PM)'GrizzlyClaws' Wrote:(06-20-2014, 12:53 PM)'Apollo' Wrote: @Guate
Thanks alot for the info and data.
Thanks again for clearing out my doubts.
But I still have some doubts and I hope you can help me here
Asper your data posted by Pckts
Ngandong tiger
Body size:
* Head-body length: 210 – 230 cm.
* Total length: 316 – 345 cm.
* Shoulder height: 115 cm.
* Weight: "By the way, the body mass of the Ngandong tiger (P. t. soloensis) must be updated. The new investigations made by Tigerluver and me put the body mass of this great cat between 370 kg (using the Christiansen & Harris (2005) equations) and 415 kg (Tigerluver new equations). This surpasses the weight of the largest Panthera atrox and Panthera (leo) fossilis and match with the largest Smilodon populator."
Panthera leo fossilis
About the size of Panthera atrox, probably up to 320 kg and estimated at 240 cm in head-body length.
Panthera leo spelaea
Large animal, 8-10% larger than modern lions. Largest skull of 420 cm. WaveRiders mentioned one of c.440 cm, but no evidence was presented. It probably weighed up to 300 kg, although this is debatable. Body length estimated at 220 cm.
Panthera Atrox
* Head and Body Length: 1.6 - 2.5 m (5.3 - 8.2 ft) (Shaw 2005)
* Tail Length: .5 - .8 m (1.7 - 2.7 ft) (Shaw 2005)
Source: http://library.sandiegozoo.org/factsheet...erican.htm
The maximum shoulder height estimated by Turner & Anton (1996) was of 125 cm.
Average weight : 250Kg (upto 320Kg)
My doubt is eventhough these cats are similar in dimensions, the Ngandong tiger seems to outweigh all of them by a big margin.
Panthera leo fossilis and Panthera atrox seems to get higher headbody length of 240cm and shoulder height 125cm when compared to Ngandong tiger (Head body length 230cm and Shoulder height 115cm) but still they weigh less than the Ngandong tiger. What is the reason ? Is there is any difference in the body construction ?
The largest Ngandong tiger is like Baikal, standing about 4 feet tall at shoulder and being 8 feet in the head+body length.
When the body dimension is similar, the tiger-like cat often weighs more than the lion-like cat.
Yeah a tiger like cat will often weigh more than a lion like cat at similar body dimensions.
But here the weight difference is much higher (P.atrox avg 250Kg (upto320Kg) and Ngandong tiger (370-415 Kg)).
The weight difference seems to be much higher even for tiger like cat when compared to a lion like cat at similar dimensions.
Provided that the P.atrox is capable of reaching bigger body dimensions than Ngandong tiger.