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Lions of Sabi Sands - Printable Version

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RE: Lions of Sabi Sands - Mapokser - 12-27-2023

@KM600 Well the guide who has seen them together is the one saying it. Also when Skorro showed up for the first time in Londolozi, they thought he was one of the PCM, his fathers were also big.

Still it did surprised me a bit, though the same happened recently, I never thought the older Talamati was bigger than NK, especially after the last time they were seen together, but more recently we saw them together again and Talamati had a much bigger chest.

@Potato Skorro looked bigger and maybe the Birmingham Breakaway is also big, and that was a year ago, Skorro must have gained some weight since then.

Besides, this is a guide who sees them together claiming it. We also have Skorro mating with Tsalala and despite him being thin at the time we could see he was fairly taller than her, despite she being as big as the old Mangheni female who is quite large.

We don't know how big the Mantimahle are as we don't have a good comparison with them nor do we see them regularly.

I don't think the Kruger male is that big, definitely not more than NK, he looked bigger than the Imbali males but IIRC they are pretty young.

Gijimas don't look that much more bigger than average, until the Londolozi guide said they were big we often thought of them as average, and there was a photographer who claimed they are average.

Nkhulus, yes, they look bigger than DeLaporte, eapecially the 2 oldest ones, but Delaporte is probably average, he also looked smaller than S.Avocas and was said to be by that Kruger guy from youtube who saw both up close.

However NK also looked pretty bigger than Tumbela and the same size as Nhenha who was much bigger than Nsuku.

We can't say if the smaller Talamati is bigger than NK, the older one has quite a bigger chest, but NK seemed to have a longer body.

As for Nhenha, a Singita ranger said Birminghams were the biggest around 2020. Sure, he might have been wrong but it wasn't just "randoms online" saying that. Not to say, Nhenha looked big even next to the largest Kambula female, same one that makes a bunch of males look small, Ndhzengas, BDM, Mohawk...

RE: Lions of Sabi Sands - Potato - 12-27-2023

(12-27-2023, 12:22 AM)Mapokser Wrote: Besides, this is a guide who sees them together claiming it
Probably we will soon see them walking side by side and will be able to compare.

(12-27-2023, 12:22 AM)Mapokser Wrote: We don't know how big the Mantimahle are as we don't have a good comparison with them nor do we see them regularly.
To be fair in case of most males we do not have good comparison as we see them in a company with males only from their own coalition. We seen Mantimahles tho with 5th Mantimahle while back and we recently seen guide claiming older Mantimahles were bigger than Matimbas.

(12-27-2023, 12:22 AM)Mapokser Wrote: Skorro must have gained some weight since then.
Must or musn't. I would arue he was fully grown already at that age. Anyway BB male was even younger so in direct comparison it doesn't matter if they are full grown or almost fully grown beacuse if they are still growing at that age then they would be equally (at best as Skorro is older) not fully grown.

(12-27-2023, 12:22 AM)Mapokser Wrote: I don't think the Kruger male is that big, definitely not more than NK
He beat Imbali male 1 on 1 so I would assume he must be quite a beast. I definitelly would expect him to be bigger than Nkuchuma.

(12-27-2023, 12:22 AM)Mapokser Wrote: Gijimas don't look that much more bigger than average, until the Londolozi guide
untill

(12-27-2023, 12:22 AM)Mapokser Wrote: we often thought of them as average
Who do you mean be we? Some randoms in internet?

(12-27-2023, 12:22 AM)Mapokser Wrote: and there was a photographer who claimed they are average
Yeah, but then you have Londolozi opinion which is quite different. To be fair there need to be pointed out that no guide ever said Nkuchuma male is particularly big so going along the line like "there is not quite good evidence from guides opinion that Gijimas are big" and at the same time totally ignoring there are no guide opinion at all that Nkuchuma is big is rather unfair towards that Gijimas. 

In general personally I would guess bigger Gijima to be bigger than Nkuchuma and smaller Gijima to be the roghly same weight as Nkuchuma.

(12-27-2023, 12:22 AM)Mapokser Wrote: Nkhulus, yes, they look bigger than DeLaporte, eapecially the 2 oldest ones, but Delaporte is probably average, he also looked smaller than S.Avocas and was said to be by that Kruger guy from youtube who saw both up close.
Wathch the videos of Avocas being together with Tsalala males, than see 3Tooth Tsalala with Dreadlock... like Dreadlock should be very clearly bigger than Avocas. Avocas were more or less same weight category than Tsalalas while Dreadlock was a lot bigger than Tsalala male.

(12-27-2023, 12:22 AM)Mapokser Wrote: However NK also looked pretty bigger than Tumbela and the same size as Nhenha who was much bigger than Nsuku.
Does it say Nkuchuma is big or rather that Tumbela and Nsuku are small/bellow avarage? I would say the leatest one. Also I would't say Nkuchuma was quite as big as Nhenha.

(12-27-2023, 12:22 AM)Mapokser Wrote: We can't say if the smaller Talamati is bigger than NK, the older one has quite a bigger chest, but NK seemed to have a longer body.
Smaller maned Talamati is just as big as his brother in body, just that he is less hair makes him appear smaller. 

(12-27-2023, 12:22 AM)Mapokser Wrote: Birminghams were the biggest around 2020
Which was clearly stupid. As much as I can see arguments for the Nhenha, Tinyo most definitelly wasn't among the biggest males even in that particular peroid of time with particullarly a lot of unhealy and/or old males around.
(12-27-2023, 12:22 AM)Mapokser Wrote: Sure, he might have been wrong but it wasn't just "randoms online" saying that
So the random ones + that one, single Singita guide comment.

(12-27-2023, 12:22 AM)Mapokser Wrote: Nhenha looked big even next to the largest Kambula female
Well, that can only be a prove that Nhenha is not small. Don't tell me that Nhenha was bigger than Kambula female is supposed to prove that Nhenha was biggest male around.

RE: Lions of Sabi Sands - Mapokser - 12-27-2023

@Potato it was discussed and posted here once screenshots of books showing the growth rate of lions. Although they reach their peak height at 4, they gain a lot of weight from 4 to 5, and a bit more after that, the average male IIRC gained some 5kg after 5yo, so a big male would proportionally gain even more.

Idk how old Skorro was 1 year ago, but maybe not even 5.

By "we" I mean the fans, most never considered Gijimas to be particularly big.

The dominant males in Londolozi are small so it's not a surprise for them to be impressed by other males like Gijimas even if Gijimas aren't very large.

But it shows how seeing lions at separate occasions and in separate years can be misleading.

I don't think Gijimas are that much bigger than the Southern females and those lionesses don't strike me as particularly big either.

The difference between NK and Gijimas is that we have better evidence with NK than guides' opinions.

We have photos and videos of NK with several other males, Styx, Nhenha, Kambulas, Talamatis, Tumbela, and video of him chased by PCM.

And seen videos and photos of him interacting with several different lionesses. Othawa Breakaway, Ximhungwe, 2 old Othawas, Mangheni, Talamatis...

Out of all of these he either looked bigger or around the same size. The exception being the PCM who looked much more impressive, though they weren't even side by side and PCM had much bigger mane.

My opinion of the Gijimas is that they are probably slightly bigger than prime Tumbela who I think is average. Tumbela isn't small, he looked decently taller than Ximhungwe and old Othawas, all 3 that were/are large lionesses. Nsuku yes, probably below average.

There's a video of S. Avocas with DeLaporte, sure not the best of the comparisons but Avocas looked much more impressive. The guide who was seeing them around that time said he thought Delaporte was average but after seeing him recently thought he was big, but Avocas who he had also seen recently, a bit bigger.

NK looked even taller than Nhenha, but Nhenha had a much bigger mane. Prime Nhenha could have been bulkier, but the difference between them if any was very small overall.

And again, I didn't say Nhenha was the biggest, I said he was considered ( by many ) to be. I for example thought OM was more impressive than Nhenha, even if not by much.

RE: Lions of Sabi Sands - Potato - 12-27-2023

(12-27-2023, 01:50 AM)Mapokser Wrote: The dominant males in Londolozi are small
So the Skorro and Nkuchuma are supposed to be big or small after all? Because kinda they are dominant males in the Londolozi right now... Aside even if we look at just past couple of months peroid of time then actually most of Sabi Sands adult male lions were seen on Londolozi (PCs, Talamatis, Kambulas, both last Avocas, Skorro, Nkuchuma, Ndzengas and Gijimas) so it is not like guide is making his opinion by looking at Gijimas through the prism of Ndzenga males. Also that is just amount of males seen on Londolozi through the past months. This guide probably seen much more lions through out his carrier.

(12-27-2023, 01:50 AM)Mapokser Wrote: than prime Tumbela who I think is average. Tumbela isn't small, he looked decently taller than Ximhungwe and old Othawas, all 3 that were/are large lionesses.
In current population is SS full of Mantimahle bloodline I would expect Tumbela to be among the smallests. 

(12-27-2023, 01:50 AM)Mapokser Wrote: There's a video of S. Avocas with DeLaporte, sure not the best of the comparisons but Avocas looked much more impressive.
Avocas were standing up there and Dreadlock was laying down so it would be impossible for him to appear bigger.

(12-27-2023, 01:50 AM)Mapokser Wrote: And again, I didn't say Nhenha was the biggest, I said he was considered ( by many ) to be
You just wrote "was considered" which alone means by default "was commonly considered" which pretty much is the same as if you would wrote straight up "was the biggest".

RE: Lions of Sabi Sands - Slayerd - 12-27-2023

(12-26-2023, 10:40 PM)Mapokser Wrote: And something interesting is that in the comments the guide said Skorro is bigger than Nkuhuma, so Skorro must be one of the biggest lions in the SS right now.

Interesting because NK was as big as Nhenha who for a while was considered the biggest in the reserve.

Now we have PCM, Skorro and bigger Talamati all as bigger than NK, potentially the smaller Talamati is at least around the same size.

A reminder that the Nhenha that was partners with the Nkuhuma Male was in good condition for his age but by no means the same lion he was in his prime. Lions, just like humans lose bone and muscle density as they age along with teeth and claws that wear out. The Nkuhuma Male was in the best physical condition he has ever been in when he was with Nhenha. He even started to look like the younger Birmingham Boys but he was not the same size. Nhenha had a bigger frame and was broader. Even the Styx Male was larger than the Nkuhuma Male and he was almost a year younger.

RE: Lions of Sabi Sands - Slayerd - 12-27-2023

(12-26-2023, 11:53 PM)Potato Wrote:
(12-26-2023, 10:40 PM)Mapokser Wrote: And something interesting is that in the comments the guide said Skorro is bigger than Nkuhuma
Tbh I doubt that. At least in comparison with one of the Birmingham breakaways which was seen with Skorro he did not look impressive at all.

(12-26-2023, 10:40 PM)Mapokser Wrote: so Skorro must be one of the biggest lions in the SS right now
Even if he is bigger than Nkuchuma does it makes him one of the biggests in Sabi Sands? With such males around like Manimahles, Nkhulus, Plains Camps, Kruger male, Gijimas or young Talamatis I would guess most adult males currently living in Sabi Sands would put more on to the scale than Nkuchuma male would.

(12-26-2023, 10:40 PM)Mapokser Wrote: Nhenha who for a while was considered the biggest in the reserve
... by some randoms in the internet? Even looking at the years 2018-2021 only there are still DM Avoca, Othawa male, Imbali and Kruger males from which any could potentially be bigger than Nhenha. Saying Nhenha was the biggest among those is nothink more than blind guess.
Nhenha was stated to be the largest male by the Mala Mala rangers who said only the Kruger Male rivaled his size. Singita who said the Birminghams was the biggest lions around. Londolozi who said the Birminghams were the most impressive lions they'd had in a very long time and who also stated the Nwaswitshaka were not nearly as impressive. There's more from photographers as well who stated the Birminghams were the largest on the property.

RE: Lions of Sabi Sands - Potato - 12-27-2023

(12-27-2023, 03:10 AM)Slayerd Wrote: Nhenha was stated to be the largest male by the Mala Mala rangers who said only the Kruger Male rivaled his size.
So bigger than 2 of the Northern Avocas and 2 Southern Avocas.

(12-27-2023, 03:10 AM)Slayerd Wrote: Singita who said the Birminghams was the biggest lions around
I commented already that point.

(12-27-2023, 03:10 AM)Slayerd Wrote: Londolozi who said the Birminghams were the most impressive lions
Source?

(12-27-2023, 03:10 AM)Slayerd Wrote: There's more from photographers as well who stated the Birminghams were the largest on the property.
Source?

RE: Lions of Sabi Sands - 1999gc8 - 12-27-2023

I feel like this back and forth about who is bigger or not is getting out of hand. 

Could we please move on?

RE: Lions of Sabi Sands - KM600 - 12-27-2023

(12-27-2023, 04:52 AM)1999gc8 Wrote: I feel like this back and forth about who is bigger or not is getting out of hand. 

Could we please move on?

Was just about to comment the same thing, was a pretty pointless conversation too.

RE: Lions of Sabi Sands - Ttimemarti - 12-27-2023

Yeah once someone says this guy is a big male someone else will say their favorite lion was bigger and it’s unnecessary all of the are bigger smaller good sized and all successful

RE: Lions of Sabi Sands - Mapokser - 12-27-2023

@Potato By dominant males I meant Ndhzengas.

When I say Tumbela is average I'm talking about the overall population, average like around 190kg, not compared to whatever the average in SS is right now.

And it's not like Delaporte couldn't appear big just because he wasn't standing. HB was lying down and briefly sitting when confronted by Nsuku but even then he appeared much bigger, and taller despite being sitting.

And I specified later what I meant by "was considered" regarding Nhenha.

The point is that we've seen NK with several males and females. While our only reference for Gijimas is an "average" from a photographer and "big" from one of the Londolozi guides.

Being seen together with other males is much better evidence than a guide who saw one male briefly and some other months or years later.

Let's look at how unreliable and contradictory these takes by rangers can be:

One of the Londolozi guides wrote that old Nhenha and Makhunga were the same size and the bigger Ndhzenga was only slightly smaller than them.

These opinions can be hella different if they're not seeing the males together. One other Londolozi guide said that the smaller Ndhzenga looked impressive when by himself, but when his bother joined him he was dwarfed, and he was also smaller than the females.

You've mentioned Neil Jennings to talk about Mantimahles being big, let's take him into consideration.

He said Red Road was bigger than DM Avoca and the Orpen Males, and that he was just slightly smaller than Scar Mbiri. Jr however was seen to be close to Ginger's size when he was only 3.5yo and a WE ranger said he thought DM would grow up to be roughly as big HB.

But let's accept RR is bigger for now. He weighed only 200-210kg with an empty stomach, even Mapogos weighed more, same Mapogos who didn't look bigger than Majingis in their confrontation, and 5th had a much bigger skull than KT who was just slightly smaller than even his biggest brother.

Majingis were seen chasing and getting chased back by Matimbas in mid 2011 in the north. Ranger Cedric who saw it said Majingis had the advantage of being a year older, but Matimbas had the advantage of having big bodies. Then same thing happened multiple times in 2015-2016 and Londolozi seeing that repeatedly said Matimbas were much larger than Majingis...

So what's going on here? How can Jr be smaller than RR like Neil claims? He was 3.5yo when he almost matched one of his fathers side by side, same father Londolozi saw in clashes with Majingis and claimed was much larger than Majingis, same Majingis seen with Mapogo, had much bigger skull and were stated to be bigger by a ranger who watched both coalitions for several years... Mapogos who weighed more than Red Road!

This shows how actually seeing lions together is more reliable than going by what a guide thinks by seeing them separately months of years apart, from different distances and angles...

NK who we saw with multiple males and females has a much better claim to being big than Gijimas who were never seen with anyone and all we have is 2 claims, one that they are average and one that they are big.

And then, Skorro is stated to be bigger than NK by a guide who sees them together.

RE: Lions of Sabi Sands - Slayerd - 12-27-2023

(12-27-2023, 03:50 AM)Potato Wrote:
(12-27-2023, 03:10 AM)Slayerd Wrote: Nhenha was stated to be the largest male by the Mala Mala rangers who said only the Kruger Male rivaled his size.
So bigger than 2 of the Northern Avocas and 2 Southern Avocas.

(12-27-2023, 03:10 AM)Slayerd Wrote: Singita who said the Birminghams was the biggest lions around
I commented already that point.

(12-27-2023, 03:10 AM)Slayerd Wrote: Londolozi who said the Birminghams were the most impressive lions
Source?

(12-27-2023, 03:10 AM)Slayerd Wrote: There's more from photographers as well who stated the Birminghams were the largest on the property.
Source?

The Sources are on this thread from years ago.

RE: Lions of Sabi Sands - Tr1x24 - 12-27-2023

(12-27-2023, 06:24 AM)Mapokser Wrote: This shows how actually seeing lions together is more reliable than going by what a guide thinks by seeing them separately months of years apart, from different distances and angles...

By this time is well known that peoples/guides opinion on who is bigger/smaller, without any evidence, is not actual fact, yet just that, opinion.

Seeing 2 lions apart, in different times, and then comparing their size, is impossible to get correct, unless their difference is massive, which is not on 90% of cases.

Guides prob can judge who is bigger between idk Mohawk/OE Ndhzenga vs PCMs, but same accurate judgment is not posibble when 2 males are very close in size, when even standing next to each others is hard to judge.

I mean, we are not even settled who was biggest member in some coalitions like Mapogos or Majingas, when we saw these males next to each others for ~ 10 years, but we are taking for granted when someone compares some males just like that.

RE: Lions of Sabi Sands - Tonpa - 12-27-2023

Kruger Male on Djuma dam cam 30 mins ago


*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author


RE: Lions of Sabi Sands - KM600 - 12-27-2023

Skip to the end for the video. Djuma is definitely not the place u want to be as a solo male but he’s constantly been spotted around the area recently. Guess he’s not had any run-ins with any of the coalitions in the North yet. Does sound like contact roaring in the background too.