WildFact
Lions of Sabi Sands - Printable Version

+- WildFact (https://wildfact.com/forum)
+-- Forum: Information Section (https://wildfact.com/forum/forum-information-section)
+--- Forum: Terrestrial Wild Animals (https://wildfact.com/forum/forum-terrestrial-wild-animals)
+---- Forum: Wild Cats (https://wildfact.com/forum/forum-wild-cats)
+----- Forum: Lion (https://wildfact.com/forum/forum-lion)
+----- Thread: Lions of Sabi Sands (/topic-lions-of-sabi-sands)

Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 51 52 53 54 55 56 57 58 59 60 61 62 63 64 65 66 67 68 69 70 71 72 73 74 75 76 77 78 79 80 81 82 83 84 85 86 87 88 89 90 91 92 93 94 95 96 97 98 99 100 101 102 103 104 105 106 107 108 109 110 111 112 113 114 115 116 117 118 119 120 121 122 123 124 125 126 127 128 129 130 131 132 133 134 135 136 137 138 139 140 141 142 143 144 145 146 147 148 149 150 151 152 153 154 155 156 157 158 159 160 161 162 163 164 165 166 167 168 169 170 171 172 173 174 175 176 177 178 179 180 181 182 183 184 185 186 187 188 189 190 191 192 193 194 195 196 197 198 199 200 201 202 203 204 205 206 207 208 209 210 211 212 213 214 215 216 217 218 219 220 221 222 223 224 225 226 227 228 229 230 231 232 233 234 235 236 237 238 239 240 241 242 243 244 245 246 247 248 249 250 251 252 253 254 255 256 257 258 259 260 261 262 263 264 265 266 267 268 269 270 271 272 273 274 275 276 277 278 279 280 281 282 283 284 285 286 287 288 289 290 291 292 293 294 295 296 297 298 299 300 301 302 303 304 305 306 307 308 309 310 311 312 313 314 315 316 317 318 319 320 321 322 323 324 325 326 327 328 329 330 331 332 333 334 335 336 337 338 339 340 341 342 343 344 345 346 347 348 349 350 351 352 353 354 355 356 357 358 359 360 361 362 363 364 365 366 367 368 369 370 371 372 373 374 375 376 377 378 379 380 381 382 383 384 385 386 387 388 389 390 391 392 393 394 395 396 397 398 399 400 401 402 403 404 405 406 407 408 409 410 411 412 413 414 415 416 417 418 419 420 421 422 423 424 425 426 427 428 429 430 431 432 433 434 435 436 437 438 439 440 441 442 443 444 445 446 447 448 449 450 451 452 453 454 455 456 457 458 459 460 461 462 463 464 465 466 467 468 469 470 471 472 473 474 475 476 477 478 479 480 481 482 483 484 485 486 487 488 489 490 491 492 493 494 495 496 497 498 499 500 501 502 503 504 505 506 507 508 509 510 511 512 513 514 515 516 517 518 519 520 521 522 523 524 525 526 527 528 529 530 531 532 533 534 535 536 537 538 539 540 541 542 543 544 545 546 547 548 549 550 551 552 553 554 555 556 557 558 559 560 561 562 563 564 565 566 567 568 569 570 571 572 573 574 575 576 577 578 579 580 581 582 583 584 585 586 587 588 589 590 591 592 593 594 595 596 597 598 599 600 601 602 603 604 605 606 607 608 609 610 611 612 613 614 615 616 617 618 619 620 621 622 623 624 625 626 627 628 629 630 631 632 633 634 635 636 637 638 639 640 641 642 643 644 645 646 647 648 649 650 651 652 653 654 655 656 657 658 659 660 661 662 663 664 665 666 667 668 669 670 671 672 673 674 675 676 677 678 679 680 681 682 683 684 685 686 687 688 689 690 691 692 693 694 695 696 697 698 699 700 701 702 703 704 705 706 707 708 709 710 711 712 713 714 715 716 717 718 719 720 721 722 723 724 725 726 727 728 729 730 731 732 733 734 735 736 737 738 739 740 741 742 743 744 745 746 747 748 749 750 751 752 753 754 755 756 757 758 759 760 761 762 763 764 765 766 767 768 769 770 771 772 773 774 775 776 777 778 779 780 781 782 783 784 785 786 787 788 789 790 791 792 793 794 795 796 797 798 799 800 801 802 803 804 805 806 807 808 809 810 811 812 813 814 815 816 817 818 819 820 821 822 823 824 825 826 827 828 829 830 831 832 833 834 835 836 837 838 839 840 841 842 843 844 845 846 847 848 849 850 851 852 853 854 855 856 857 858 859 860 861 862 863 864 865 866 867 868 869 870 871 872 873 874 875 876 877 878 879 880 881 882 883 884 885 886 887 888 889 890 891 892 893 894 895 896 897 898 899 900 901 902 903 904 905 906 907 908 909 910 911 912 913 914 915 916 917 918 919 920 921 922 923 924 925 926 927 928 929 930 931 932 933 934 935 936 937 938 939 940 941 942 943 944 945 946 947 948 949 950 951 952 953 954 955 956 957 958 959 960 961 962 963 964 965 966 967 968 969 970 971 972 973 974 975 976 977 978 979 980 981 982 983 984 985 986 987 988 989 990 991 992 993 994 995 996 997 998 999 1000 1001 1002 1003 1004 1005 1006 1007 1008 1009 1010 1011 1012 1013 1014 1015 1016 1017 1018 1019 1020 1021 1022 1023 1024 1025 1026 1027 1028 1029 1030 1031 1032 1033 1034 1035 1036 1037 1038 1039 1040 1041 1042 1043 1044 1045 1046 1047 1048 1049 1050 1051 1052 1053 1054 1055 1056 1057 1058 1059 1060 1061 1062 1063 1064 1065 1066 1067 1068 1069 1070 1071 1072 1073 1074 1075 1076 1077 1078 1079 1080 1081 1082 1083 1084 1085 1086 1087 1088 1089 1090 1091 1092 1093 1094 1095 1096 1097 1098 1099 1100 1101 1102 1103 1104 1105 1106

RE: Lions of Sabi Sands - RookiePundit - 12-15-2023

(12-15-2023, 01:48 AM)KM600 Wrote:
(12-15-2023, 01:31 AM)afortich Wrote: Summary of lost lions in 2023





Never understood why ppl make these videos around this time, it’s still possible for more male lions to die in Sabi Sand before the year closes out. Nevertheless, I see why ‘Scar’ didn’t include the bigger Southern Avoca in the video but all the signs point to him being dead and this would have been a worthy tribute.

Nitpicking - technically is also quite possible he was not "lost" in Sabi Sands and can be argued how much Sabi Sands lion the two were, although I am sure they were always included in the summaries. But yeah I noticed his omission too, I guess lack of info of what happened to him factored in the decision as much as a slim chance he is still around.

RE: Lions of Sabi Sands - RookiePundit - 12-16-2023

(12-15-2023, 02:33 AM)Duco Ndona Wrote: Its the season for it I guess. Lost of media have their stuff out already for weeks now and the chance of another mayor death are slim. 

There are some notable omissions though. Such as the Southern Avoca or the Ximhungwe cub.

Well, if we count male cubs, the Sand River male cub killed by Nkhulus was a more touching loss (video included) being much older, although from your point of view Ximhungwe female might procreate and secure her lineage to go on, so it might be more impactful in that regard, although the loss itself is imho not very noteworthy, as with so little cubs, this happens all the time and often even before it is known what sexes the cubs are, just the bunch of cubs in a pride gets smaller from time to time, the survival rate is what, 25%(?), it is just that this one aws a solo cub in a small pride on top of that and who its mother was.

RE: Lions of Sabi Sands - Tr1x24 - 12-16-2023

(12-15-2023, 11:46 PM)Robot00 Wrote: We can assume they've lost against the four kam boys
There's no way they can challenge 2pcm 2vs2
They have a good chance against the 2 Ndhzenga males
They might have a chance against the two gijimas

No way to know this.

RE: Lions of Sabi Sands - Tr1x24 - 12-16-2023

(12-15-2023, 11:38 PM)Robot00 Wrote: I think it's a mistake for them to venture up north now the kambula boys are laying their claim. If they're not careful and dont play their role of just "stay in your territory" instead of trying to challenge The kam boys, they are in a world of hurt. The kam boys are prime for conquest. The only reason they would spare the Ndhzenga males is because they are the current protectors of their old family.

If Kambulas are their new neighbours north, Ndhzengas need to send clear message from the beginning, that they are not to be mess with in future.

RE: Lions of Sabi Sands - KM600 - 12-16-2023

(12-15-2023, 11:38 PM)Robot00 Wrote:
(12-15-2023, 09:23 PM)KM600 Wrote: Ndhzenga back in the North, like the comment says ‘I like their style’ and I agree as they tend to always show up when there’s a lot of tension in the area. Must’ve heard either one of the coalitions roaring and decided it’s time to show they’re still a force to be reckoned with.

This is just me thinking out loud.

I think it's a mistake for them to venture up north now the kambula boys are laying their claim. If they're not careful and dont play their role of just "stay in your territory" instead of trying to challenge The kam boys, they are in a world of hurt. The kam boys are prime for conquest. The only reason they would spare the Ndhzenga males is because they are the current protectors of their old family.

If things were to go down between these two coalitions, i see the kam boys giving the Ndhzenga a minor beating to let them know "sit yo ass down" and let them off easy back to protecting their mothers and siblings

The logic of the Ndhzengas being spared as they are the dominant males of the Kambula Pride only works if the Kambula males went to takeover their natal pride as opposed to the Ndhzengas going North themselves. Them going North is only a mistake if they split up and get caught, but possibly hearing 3 different coalitions with a total of 11 male lions roaring quite close to their territory enforces such a response.

Also I think the confidence of the Kambula males is being over exaggerated, the only true fight they’ve had was against Nkuhuma Male and that was him trying to surrender to them while defending himself enough they let him escape with his life. If both Ndhzengas come across the 4 Kambula males, they’re going to be the aggressor hence them initially going North in the first place. I’m not counting that apparent scuffle with the BDMs, as it wasn’t witnessed and by the injuries received, it was hardly a fight. We don’t truly know how the Kambula males will react when it comes down to it.

RE: Lions of Sabi Sands - KM600 - 12-16-2023

(12-15-2023, 11:23 PM)Mapokser Wrote: Kambulas are roaring claiming the land everyday, but it seems the BDM are not defending the territory from them. Apparently, since the first clash, the BDM are avoiding them.

U could say the exact same thing about the Kambula males, if they did chase the BDMs like ppl seem to think, why wouldn’t they move into their prime territory and even seek out the Nkuhuma Pride. Instead they went East towards Nkorho and have just now returned to Chitwa Chitwa. Them seemingly keen on staying in the North is definitely an issue tho, it’s to the point where BDMs have to win the next encounters because u give the Kambula males confidence and watch how the dynamics change. Can’t remember who said it in here, but it was a message saying BDMs have to seriously hurt or even kill one of the Kambula males and at first I thought it was a bit too extreme, but rn it’s looking like they may have too.

RE: Lions of Sabi Sands - Mapokser - 12-16-2023

@Robot00 KYM may not attack their mothers and sisters if they meet and still recognize each other, but Ndhzengas aren't included in this, they'd show no mercy, for all they know, Ndhzengas are as much enemies as any other.

RE: Lions of Sabi Sands - Ttimemarti - 12-16-2023

If the kambula males come across the kambula pride with he nwaswitshaka males the femaleS will attack the males the girls don’t know the intentions of the young males if they come to harm the nwaswitshakas they may come to harm the cubs and they will not let that happen so 2 nwaswitshakas plus 8 kambula girls I believe Just like the othawa make he was killed by both the Birmingham males and the females of the pride

RE: Lions of Sabi Sands - Mapokser - 12-16-2023

@KM600 This is not like lion dynamics work, you either confront your challengers or go nomadic, especially while outnumbered.

Kambulas are roaring non-stop for days and days, every day we get a new video of them roaring in BDM territory, BDM are aware and do nothing to confront them, meaning they're done already, they don't currently own the territory.

A male lion is only dominant as long as he can enforce his dominance in the territory, which is not what the BDM are doing, they've been ignoring rival roars for more than a week now.

RE: Lions of Sabi Sands - Tr1x24 - 12-16-2023

(12-16-2023, 01:21 AM)Mapokser Wrote: @Robot00 KYM may not attack their mothers and sisters if they meet and still recognize each other, but Ndhzengas aren't included in this, they'd show no mercy, for all they know, Ndhzengas are as much enemies as any other

Young males very rarely overtake their natal prides, especially no as their first pride and from males that ousted them (its hard to find case when something like this happened).

So Ndhzengas and Kambulas should be safe from them, for now atleast.

RE: Lions of Sabi Sands - Mapokser - 12-16-2023

@Tr1x24 I'm not saying KYM will take their natal territory" I've been saying for a long time that they are avoiding their natal territory and unlikely the other duos, Ndhzengas are safe because of it.

I was just saying that if Ndhzengas go north and meet the KYM, the KYM won't see them as anything but enemies, instead of what it was claimed that they may not attack them because "they're the protectors of their natal pride".

RE: Lions of Sabi Sands - Duco Ndona - 12-16-2023

Sometimes coalitions that find themselves outnumbered just withdrawn from the area the challengers are in. This way they can still remain dominant for a while without challenging their invaders. Like the Birmingham Boys did when the Northern Avocas invaded. It may be that the BDM males are empoying a similar tactic. 

Though in the long term its not a good strategy as the only way you can win if the enemy lions fall victim to illness or hunting accidents. Or if they give opportunities to take them out one by one. Eventually you will run out of land to retreat into. The pride is not going to accept any more loss of hunting grounds and you end up losing everything anyway. 

As for the Ndhzengas. A conflict should not be ruled out as they are still neighbouring coalitions.
While a direct takeover of a pride is very unlikely to happen, conflicts over territory are still possible.
And even if that does not happen, its not like they are going to greet eachother politely if they run into eachother.

RE: Lions of Sabi Sands - Mapokser - 12-16-2023

Big difference is that Bboys and Avocas conflict was 2v2, anything can happen in a 2v2, they can compete for a long time by retreating today and maybe taking a more bold approach tomorrow. But when you're outnumbered you cannot show any weakeness, you must make the enemies think that you're strong enough even if you lack the numbers to compete evenly.

Ndhzengas just need to chill a bit more south, not venturing north of MalaMala and it is unlikely the KYM will put any pressure. But venturing north like they do against the BDM they may attract some border dispute. Thing is, instinctively, the KYM won't want to go south, at least as long as they have the memory that they were born there and the females there are related to them.

RE: Lions of Sabi Sands - KM600 - 12-16-2023

(12-16-2023, 01:49 AM)Mapokser Wrote: @KM600 This is not like lion dynamics work, you either confront your challengers or go nomadic, especially while outnumbered.

Kambulas are roaring non-stop for days and days, every day we get a new video of them roaring in BDM territory, BDM are aware and do nothing to confront them, meaning they're done already, they don't currently own the territory.

A male lion is only dominant as long as he can enforce his dominance in the territory, which is not what the BDM are doing, they've been ignoring rival roars for more than a week now.

‘They’re done already, they don’t currently own the territory’ if that’s true then neither do the Kambula males as they haven’t successfully ousted the BDMs either. The problem seems to be that the BDMs either can’t successfully oust the Kambula males or lack the experience to and the Kambula males aren’t willing to oust the BDMs which is prolly due to lack of experience. The only positive thing is the Nkuhuma Pride seems to accept the BDMs and they certainly won’t accept the Kambulas, best they could do is create a breakaway.

RE: Lions of Sabi Sands - KM600 - 12-17-2023

Kambula males in Northern Londolozi, their sister was near but not in the video.