+- WildFact (https://wildfact.com/forum)
+-- Forum: Information Section (https://wildfact.com/forum/forum-information-section)
+--- Forum: Terrestrial Wild Animals (https://wildfact.com/forum/forum-terrestrial-wild-animals)
+---- Forum: Wild Cats (https://wildfact.com/forum/forum-wild-cats)
+----- Forum: Lion (https://wildfact.com/forum/forum-lion)
+----- Thread: BODY SIZE AND MASS OF NGORONGORO CRATER LIONS (/topic-body-size-and-mass-of-ngorongoro-crater-lions)
RE: BODY SIZE AND MASS OF NGORONGORO CRATER LIONS - chaos - 05-31-2015
The average of 187 and 179 kgs sounds more accurate. The 155 average is a bit dubious as it likely includes young lions. A difference
in regards to the other studies, don't you agree? Most sources place the average around 180+ kg's. A 25 kg difference is sizable when
comparing different studies of the same animal. That would change the estimated average for craters and bring it closer to the 210 +
kg average the peer reviewed "educated estimate" Waveriders referred to. Im using the info loosely provided here in this very thread
to back my opinion. The numbers reflect accurately with the "generally accepted" average of 180+kgs for Serengeti lions, and Packers
own claim of 10-20% > difference for the crater lion. Whether its fact, that's yet be determined.
RE: BODY SIZE AND MASS OF NGORONGORO CRATER LIONS - GuateGojira - 05-31-2015
In fact, it depends of the sources, not all states a figure of 180 kg. Packer (2012) states a figure of 350 lb (c.159 kg) like a "fairly average for a Serengeti male" and Schaller (1972) states an average of 120 kg for females and 170 kg for males. The two males recorded by Dr Packer in the new document of 2013 are of 155.5 kg and 169 kg respectively, and those for a sample that contains males of over 200 cm in head-body (West & Packer, in Kingdom et al., 2013). These are first hand sources, not only quoting other ones.
I think that between 155 - 180 kg is the average for the entire north area of Tanzania, fluctiating between prey density and food availability.
The figure of 155 kg can't be dismissed just because is possible that there are "young" animals included, because we don't know that. In fact, we most know the prey density in that area and the time when those animals were hunted too. Is much possible that some animals between 3 to 4 years old are included, but as those are accepted as "adults" by some circles, they are fair to be included. As far I know, a male of that age already had mane, and De Almeida states that all were males, probably all with manes already.
A sample of 5 males in Selous GR gives an average of 167.1 kg (range: 145.4 - 204.7 kg, adjusted), so low averages are common in the east area, but certainly the weights of southern populations surpass these figures by much. In southern Africa are the real giants of the species, by exception of the Crater lions.
RE: BODY SIZE AND MASS OF NGORONGORO CRATER LIONS - GuateGojira - 05-31-2015
Here is a little information about Tony Sanchez-Arino:
"The other night I had the pleasure of listening to a talk by Tony Sanchez-Arino who, at age 82, is about to begin his 60th season as an African professional hunter. In addition to countless safaris, he was also an ivory hunter and, I would guess, a game-control shooter. His numbers of animals taken are staggering: just under 1,300 elephant, 2,044 Cape buffalo, and 322 lion. His talk dealt with the three questions he is most often asked. "
Source: http://www.fieldandstream.com/blogs/gun-nuts/2012/02/talking-african-dangerous-game-hunting-tony-sanchez-arino
As we can see he is an expert on wild animals and a professional hunter with many experience. I don't think that he included young animals in his descriptions, specially if we still use the old cliche that hunters always want the bigger figures.
Check also this page: http://www.africahunting.com/threads/tony-sanchez-arino-a-great-professional-hunter.3322/
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
This guy is a great hunter and if we can use it as evidence, the lions in the pictures are all maned ones. He is still alive, it will be posible to communicate with him??? [img]images/smilies/huh.gif[/img]
RE: BODY SIZE AND MASS OF NGORONGORO CRATER LIONS - chaos - 05-31-2015
The higher end of the "average" supports my opinion. The lower end supports yours.
What is the "generally" accepted average for adult male Serengeti lions? Is 180 kgs
incorrect? I'm aware small studies can yield different results. Too many factors enter
the equation. Are there any long term comprehensive studies involving large numbers
of Serenget adult males? If so, I'd be more inclined to accepting that data as accurate
in regards to referencing.
RE: BODY SIZE AND MASS OF NGORONGORO CRATER LIONS - GuateGojira - 05-31-2015
At the same token, what is the "generally" accepted average for adult male Amur tigers? Is 225 kgs with maximums of 360 kg.
However the "generally" opinions on books doesn't make it real. I go to the original data and there is the point of all. No popular ideas or copy-paste of books, just raw data as it is and latter interpretation on it.
By the way, did you share my opinion on Tony Sanchez-Arino and his accuracy or are you against it?
RE: BODY SIZE AND MASS OF NGORONGORO CRATER LIONS - tigerluver - 06-01-2015
Dr. Packer states Crater have bigger chest girths, and supposedly we have these numbers. Remember the regression I did? That equation is the same method of the 212 kg estimate and isn't flawed. It's also powerful due to sample size. That's why I think the regression method is the best way to find an estimate for the Crater weights. Also, I feel both length and chest girths should be taken into account as a product of the two against weight for accuracy of estimation. Most ecologists are more focused on the conservation and ecological math, that's probably why no one has used the allometry methods.
RE: BODY SIZE AND MASS OF NGORONGORO CRATER LIONS - chaos - 06-01-2015
~~At the same token, what is the "generally" accepted average for adult male Amur tigers? Is 225 kgs with maximums of 360 kg.
We both know this to be inaccurate and unrealistic. Perhaps in captivity, but certainly not in the present day wild. 180 kgs for adult
male Serengeti lions is not unrealistic at all. Your own samples directly reflect that.
As far as Sanchez-Arino goes, I have no real opinion on it. I don't dispute it. Its very low end though.
RE: BODY SIZE AND MASS OF NGORONGORO CRATER LIONS - Pantherinae - 06-01-2015
155 kg on adult male lions even in serengeti seems extreamly low...
I would say as every lion populations it goes from small to big induviduals. I even think for a really small adult male lion 155 kg would[url=#78324746] be rarely low.
I see big induviduals from eastern Africa that looks far larger than average southern lions. take a look at the Notch boys (Masai Mara) for an example and then look at the Mapogos and Majingilanes I would bet that the 3 biggest from the Notch coalition is bigger than every mapogo and Majingilane males which I have heard is qouted average (with the exeption of dreadlocks and Makhulu, who's qouted large)
I agree with @chaos 180 kg for adult males in Serengeti seems to be the ideal average weight of Serengeti lions. some smaller than that and some bigger.
RE: BODY SIZE AND MASS OF NGORONGORO CRATER LIONS - GuateGojira - 06-01-2015
(06-01-2015, 01:35 AM)'chaos' Wrote: ~~At the same token, what is the "generally" accepted average for adult male Amur tigers? Is 225 kgs with maximums of 360 kg.You missed the point.
We both know this to be inaccurate and unrealistic. Perhaps in captivity, but certainly not in the present day wild. 180 kgs for adult
male Serengeti lions is not unrealistic at all. Your own samples directly reflect that.
As far as Sanchez-Arino goes, I have no real opinion on it. I don't dispute it. Its very low end though.
The point is that even when many books repeat the same (I put the example of the Amur tiger), that is not true. Lions of 180 kg and Amurs of 225 kg are not the real figures.
If we go to the original documents, Packer and Schaller estimate an average of 160-170 kg in the normal cases, the figures of Sanchez-Arino (155 kg) and Bertram (186 kg) are the extreme points of the scale.
I am not against the figure of 180 kg, if properly supported by data, but I am against ignoring the smaller populations like that of Loliondo. Remember that Waza lions weights an average of about 150 kg with higher figures of up to 198 kg, but not for that reason we most ignore it. We have Royal Bengal tigers weighing only 100 kg in the Sundarbans, but that is a real population that is included in our calculations.
I am going to contact Sanchez-Arino. I don't know how, but I have hope that he will give us answers.
Pantherinae, a group of 20 big lions of up to 230 kg are just a small part of a population of more than 1,000 specimens in East Africa. Normally, the lions in rich areas of the Serengeti seems to weight about 180-190 kg, but this is more like a mode than an mean (average).
RE: BODY SIZE AND MASS OF NGORONGORO CRATER LIONS - chaos - 06-01-2015
~~You missed the point.
No I didn't. I wasn't basing this upon "general heresy". If I'm incorrect, then so be it. Average size for full grown male lions as a species
overall is close to 180 kg's, correct? Am I incorrect in stating Serengetis are representative of the average size lion? If so, I was unaware
they were on the smaller side, size wise. I fully respect your knowledge and opinion. Still in all, the main question - craters - just can't be
answered at this time, due to lack of solid info. I do accept Packers estimation of craters being larger than Serengetis, that much has been
clarified.
RE: BODY SIZE AND MASS OF NGORONGORO CRATER LIONS - GuateGojira - 06-01-2015
In fact, the average for male lions at "species" level seems to be c.170 kg and c.160 kg for male tigers.
On the Serengeti issue, we are running in circles, the data was presented and I will say no more.
Focus on Crater lions, that is all for now.
RE: BODY SIZE AND MASS OF NGORONGORO CRATER LIONS - chaos - 06-01-2015
~~Size
Asiatic lions are relative smaller than their African lions, in average and in maximum figures. Adult males typically weigh between 353 and 420 pounds (160 – 190 kg), while adult females weigh between 240 and 264 pounds (109 - 120 kg) . The largest Asiatic lion on record measured 9.7 feet (296 cm) from the tip of its nose to the tip of its tail “between pegs”.
Male African lions typically weigh between 320 and 500 pounds (145 – 227 kg) in weight, with an average around 386 pounds (175 kg) overall. The largest African lion hunted on record weighed 690 pounds (313 kg). Females typically weigh more than their Asiatic cousins. The longest African lion measured around 10 feet (310 cm) from nose to tail tip “between pegs”.
I felt the need to clarify my position once and for all. This is a quote from a different thread "comparative analysis between African and asiatic
lions". Here the overall average for African male lions is 175 kgs - In your very own words. My assessment of 180 kgs isn't off by much at all.
With this in mind, I stand by my "educated guess" that adult male craters are quite capable of reaching 210+/- kgs on average. Time will tell.
RE: BODY SIZE AND MASS OF NGORONGORO CRATER LIONS - GuateGojira - 06-01-2015
You are right in one point, cheeking again the document of Yamaguchi, the average for male lions at species level is of c.175 kg and for females c.120 kg. The weight for male tigers, at species level, is of c.160 kg and for females c.115 kg (Yamaguchi et al., 2009). Still, in any of the two document of Yamaguchi, about this point, is showed which were his sources, so we can only "guess" which data was used by him, although Peter and I have found similar results with our own data.
However, the average of 180 kg for Serengeti males is incorrect, the data show that a little over 170 kg is the correct figure and according with Dr Packer could be even lower in some areas.
There is no "educated guess" on Crater lions right now, as the result of the formula in that old document (212 kg) is incorrect because the formula itself was proved incorrect, so why we most quote something that is not correct? Yamaguchi & Haddane (2002) estimate them at "over 200 kg" and Dr Packer estimated a gain of 10-20% over the average Serengeti specimens based in chest girths, but those measurements are no different than those of the Southern area (which can be up to 139 cm), so the best guess would be that while East African lions average c.174 kg overall, the Crater lions, been larger, average like the southern populations, which are know the weight 190 - 202 kg on average.
RE: BODY SIZE AND MASS OF NGORONGORO CRATER LIONS - chaos - 06-01-2015
(06-01-2015, 07:56 AM)'GuateGojira' Wrote: You are right in one point, cheeking again the document of Yamaguchi, the average for male lions at species level is of c.175 kg and for females c.120 kg. The weight for male tigers, at species level, is of c.160 kg and for females c.115 kg (Yamaguchi et al., 2009). Still, in any of the two document of Yamaguchi, about this point, is showed which were his sources, so we can only "guess" which data was used by him, although Peter and I have found similar results with our own data.
However, the average of 180 kg for Serengeti males is incorrect, the data show that a little over 170 kg is the correct figure and according with Dr Packer could be even lower in some areas.
There is no "educated guess" on Crater lions right now, as the result of the formula in that old document (212 kg) is incorrect because the formula itself was proved incorrect, so why we most quote something that is not correct? Yamaguchi & Haddane (2002) estimate them at "over 200 kg" and Dr Packer estimated a gain of 10-20% over the average Serengeti specimens based in chest girths, but those measurements are no different than those of the Southern area (which can be up to 139 cm), so the best guess would be that while East African lions average c.174 kg overall, the Crater lions, been larger, average like the southern populations, which are know the weight 190 - 202 kg on average.
According to Waveriders and Tigerluver the equation is correct. There was a simple misspelling involved which didn't factor
into the actual equation. You can reference Waveriders comments at the beginning of this very thread.
~~Dr. Packer states Crater have bigger chest girths, and supposedly we have these numbers. Remember the regression I did? That equation is the same method of the 212 kg estimate and isn't flawed.
RE: BODY SIZE AND MASS OF NGORONGORO CRATER LIONS - tigerluver - 06-01-2015
The published equation is incorrect (numbers do not work out) and actually has a flaw due to the lack of log scaling (this flaw is in all published chest girth equations).
Copied from the lion extinction thread (refer to that for the equation): "Using the equation here, the 127 cm girth is of a 192 kg specimen and the 134 cm girth of a 211 kg specimen, averaging the two masses gives 202 kg." 37 data points went into it, so it's very strong from what's available. Average percent error is 9.7%.