(05-18-2017, 03:28 AM)Pckts Wrote: I'm a bit skeptical on the 230kg claim, who weighed them and when, cause the only time I remember them being weighed was a year or two ago when they were still young and under 150kg.
Also, if one was found buried, I'd  assume decomposition set in so most likely he wasn't weighed then.

(05-19-2017, 04:21 AM)Pckts Wrote: Dr. Habib weighed Jai at 220kg empty, I'm not sure where the 238kg claim from. I posted the email from him to me on here. I believe he also weighed jais two sub adults around 130kg ish a while back, I forget the exact number. That's why I'm skeptical of where the 230kg came from.
@Shardul

(05-19-2017, 04:56 AM)Pckts Wrote: Absolutely, I was just curious if the 230kg could be confirmed or if it was an estimate.

(12-20-2016, 11:41 AM)peter Wrote: In Russia, young males disperse between 18-24 months of age. In India, they seem to disperse between 24-30 months. This although conditions in India are better. The most likely reason is small reserves, no buffer zones and intense competition. For this reason, young males can be as heavy as mature animals.    

My advice is to distinguish between adolescents (2-3), young adults (4-5), prime males (6-10) and old tigers (11 and over). In skulls, the distinction between age classes often is well visible.

When you have information about individuals, try to contact those in the know to check what you have (Copters proved it can be done). Maybe they can tell you a bit more about fluctuations (collars often are replaced) and it's possible they also have info about total length. When you have weights, try to find out if the tigers were empty or not when they were weighed. Also try to find out a bit more about the scales used.

In order to get to an assessment, we need large samples. The larger the sample, the more reliable the table. My guess is there are 500-800 adult male tigers in India today. Read a bit about sample size, statistics and conclusions.          

When done, also try to get to a conclusion on reliability (referring to the sources used). I'd distinguish between low, medium and high.

And then there's regions. Based on old records, there could be pronounced differences between the elevated Himalayas (the Terai, Nepal and Bhutan), the alluvial floodplains in the northeast (like Kazirangha), the wetlands in the Ganges and Bhramaputra delta (the Sunderbans), the highlands of central and central-eastern India (like Kanha), the plateau of southern India (the Deccan) and southwestern India (the western Ghats).   

The reason to publish tables in WildFact is a lack of data in peer-reviewed documents. In some documents, the data are unreliable because weights were adjusted. Sizewise, peer-reviewed not always has meaning. The reason is only few biologists are interested in size (a lack of interest can result in a lack of knowledge). This is the reason old data are used so often. Also remember most samples are small, which could result in bias.   

Our aim is to collect data and enable readers to get to an opinion. What we don't want, is tables based on newspaper reports only. This is a very real danger. For example. I've read a number of reports about the large male who was moved from Ranthambore after he had killed four humans. In nearly each of them, the weight mentioned was different. He wasn't the only one.

I know it's quite a job, but it's the only way to get to decent tables. Good luck.

(06-15-2017, 02:42 AM)Pckts Wrote: There is nothing small about the reserves in C. India, that's for sure. Pench and Kanha are absolutely massive with corridors still used by Tigers today and Tadoba is large as well, not nearly as gigantic as the other two I mentioned, especially Kanha. The density of people are in Nagpur, Mumbai or Delhi, the reserves have villages but they hardly make a dent in the massiveness of green vegetation in the reserves I mentioned above.

I do agree that most individuals would usually be territory holders but that doesn't mean much. In Kanha for instance, we only really know of a few individuals in who go back and forth from Kanha, Kisli and Mukki, but there are many zones and areas that have hardly no sightings and individuals that are rarely seen. But the density there is just as much, if not more. Just the terrain is different, within Kanha, the Sarhi zone is much more hilly than Kisli or Mukki for instance but yet the only male I spotted in Kanha was there and he is a male that is hardly ever seen. Tadoba has a large buffer area and a lot of zones go unexplored. It really depends on the sightings at the time, the forest is too large, any biologist must go off of what the guide says and they only know based off of talking to one another. So at any given time one zone may be a popular choice for sightings but that doesn't mean you get any sort of idea what density of tiger is there.

*This image is copyright of its original author

Biologists have also underestimated dosages as well, I'm not sure how accurate dosage estimations are to actual body weights. I also highly doubt that any biologist/veterinarian  can make educated weight estimates based off fleeting glimpses of a tiger. You don't get to see tigers for long periods of time, the few that actually give you "road shows" are very rare.

(06-15-2017, 02:52 AM)peter Wrote: Nice to see you post again, Dr. Panthera! Your input is much appreciated by many.   

Although all points raised in your post are of interest, those on (the effects of) sedation, average size and conservation deserve more attention. Conservation in particular still is a major issue in most regions:

http://www.poachingfacts.com/poaching-statistics/tiger-poaching-statistics/

(06-22-2017, 11:55 PM)Pckts Wrote: Small compared to Selous or the Serengeti is one thing, Tanzania holds 16,830 lions in 2010, and the serengeti and Selous are the two largest reserves with in Tanzani, between the two, they hold 12,117 lions if you include Tarangire. So more than half of all lions in the world exist there, compare that to of 3,000 total tigers left in the wild and most likely less than that in india. From a scientific standpoint I get what you're saying but from a practical standpoint, the reserves are massive, they can easily sustain more tigers and we really only know about a fraction of the tigers that live there, so I certainly wouldn't say they live in small isolated reserves.

Camera traps are fantastic tools but they too aren't with out flaws, many animals have learned to avoid them and even the ones they use in Kanha are few and far between, usually in areas where tiger traffic is well known and easily accessible to humans. The forest of Kanha and Pench have many terrains and the higher you go the harder it is to trek obviously but that doesn't mean that it's hard for the tiger, tigers are as dense there as they are in other areas of the same reserve we just don't get to see them as often.

I agree that young or weak tigers are pushed to the fringes, but the area between prime habitat and the fringes are massive, at least the areas I saw. This is of course, to the naked eye. In terms of conservation, the amount of area they have left isn't satisfactory, they need more, much more. But if we were to sustain their existing territory from here on out and turn up our poaching patrol and destroy the wild animal trade, stop our intrusion into their remaining habitat, there is no reason that the remaining protected areas couldn't sustain a large and satisfactory ecosystem for the rest of time IMO.

I agree 100% with your assessment on dosage, you're the absolute expert and I differ to your expertise and enjoy your posts whenever you decide to do so.
@Dr panther

(06-22-2017, 11:40 PM)Dr Panthera Wrote:

(06-15-2017, 02:52 AM)peter Wrote: Nice to see you post again, Dr. Panthera! Your input is much appreciated by many.   

Although all points raised in your post are of interest, those on (the effects of) sedation, average size and conservation deserve more attention. Conservation in particular still is a major issue in most regions:

http://www.poachingfacts.com/poaching-statistics/tiger-poaching-statistics/

Bedankt Peter!
With my three boys, my two pharmacies, and teaching medical and pharmacy students I am quite occupied. I love this forum and the quality of discourse and information here but my visits are likely to be sporadic.
Any one of us who had the pleasure of studying animals, working with them, or seeing them in the wild appreciates them and science strives to provide the data needed for the conservation effort...I sometimes think that in two hundred years our descendants could only find tigers ( and lions and other iconic animals) in museums samples and on the electronic pages!! That saddens me and I hope we all do our little bit in preventing that.

Quote:Five poachers arrested, tiger skin seized


According to forest department officials, personnel from Panbari Range of Manas National Park caught the five poachers near the park this morning.

The poachers have been identified as Sanjiv Basumatary (30), Ranjan Doimary (26), Sunil Bodo (30), Badu Bodo (45) and Bonaru Bodo (24).

"The forest department also recovered a skin of a panther tiger of 117 feet length, 157 pieces of tiger bones and a hand made gun," officials said.

The officials said that the poachers have confessed of killing the tiger on April 25 inside the Park.

(12-20-2016, 12:03 AM)Pckts Wrote:

(12-19-2016, 05:56 PM)Roflcopters Wrote:

*This image is copyright of its original author

So i got a hold of Sunal Kumar Roamin of Wildlife Institute of India and asked him a few questions regarding p212's weight.

*This image is copyright of its original author

205kg - P212 
218kg - unknown male

Nice find Copters.


Vijayarajan Muthu

Meet P212, the male tiger from Panna who was presumably unheard of in Kanha. Please do take a moment to read this.
He was born in 2010 to the Indri Tigress who was trans-located to Panna in 2009 & believed to have been sired by T-3, the Male brought in from Pench. As a strapping young radio-collared lad, P 212 left the park in 2014 and headed towards Bandhavgarh, traversing through human settlements in a journey which perhaps created history by retracing a lost corridor between the two parks. The Panna authorities monitored him closely during this period and needless to mention, the radio-collar turned out to be of immense value.
Within a month of his departure from Panna, a decision was taken to shift P212 to the lesser known Sanjay Dubri Tiger Reserve. No sooner did he arrive at SDTR, P212 courted with two resident females and sired litters of 4 and 5 cubs respectively by late 2014. All was hunky dory until another Male (SD005) crossed his path. As is the norm, the rival Male began wandering into P212’s territory which resulted in brutal fights for supremacy. After a series of battles, P212 was left badly injured & had lost all his canines. But the true fighter that he was, the SDTR authorities decided not to tranquilize him for medical aid as he seemed to recover naturally, albeit with a limp.
However, in a remarkable turn of events during the summers of 2015, SD005 male appeared to have plotted a move to eliminate the cubs sired by P212 and the females ran for cover. It was believed that P212 ushered the female & cubs to safety in a ravine and went back to fight it out with the intruder, a broken leg & loss of canines didn’t seem to deter him. At the end of the final brutal battle which lasted a few days, P212 eventually succumbed to injuries and died a heroic death. While most (injured) males flee the scene during such hostile takeover bids, P212 chose to stay put and go down fighting. He may have lost his life but ended up saving his offspring and thereby leaving a huge legacy behind.
He was given a grand funeral and the forest personnel remember him fondly as a legend of SDTR. Although not much is known of the rival male who must have wandered off to other parts of the park which had 2 other resident females, the mates of P212 and his 9 cubs are believed to be still ruling SDTR.
I’ve shared the true story of P212 (as per info obtained from the authorities & sources of SDTR) at our forum since he was a direct descendant of our very own Indri / Pattewala / Limping Male / Heartshape female. Kanha’s genes are not only alive & kicking in Panna but also in Sanjay Dubri Tiger Reserve now. Info as well as photos courtesy : SDTR.

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

Raman Kalika Srivastava Good account Sri Vijayarajan Muthu and Anupam Sirohiji
However, there are a couple of corrections, which I would like to bring to your notice. They were posted way back in August 2015 along with the the photographs that you have reposted
P212 was killed by sd005 who is original inhabitant of sdtr and was under park monitoring since past year and a half. It fought way back in April 2014 just about a fortnight after p 212 was introduced. P212 was treated by a team of doctors for more than a week to help it heal its wounds. It was twice tranquillised in jul 2014 and in 2015. No radio collar could be put on it due to deep neck wound it had sustained, in fact it was decollared and monitored for next nine months without radio collars. Wii team radio collared it in May 2015, detailed account is there in the Facebook page of sdtr.
Prior to 2013, there was no evidence of resident tigers, they were believed to be using sdtr as a stepping stone. There has been no case of poaching or poisoning of any individual since then. For the first time we are witnessing the presence of resident tigers with regular litters surviving under park monitoring.
Thanks and regards