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+----- Thread: Largest Living wild lions ? (/topic-largest-living-wild-lions)
RE: Largest Living wild lions ? - Pckts - 09-01-2014
Once again, show me Almero on the photo.
Show me that he worked with Timbavati and show me the Time frame he worked there!
Stop saying the picture is of a different lion, it is not.
You want to compare Madla to this lion, OK.
Show me the Lions dimensions then, madlas dimensions are given which absolutely ties in to his size, lets see some dimensions of this lion that prove something other than "his paws were the size of dinner plates"
Whats his body length, skull size, shoulder height, etc.
What was he weighed on, what was the scale limit, etc.
RE: Largest Living wild lions ? - Pantherinae - 09-01-2014
They're not The same, they look different, and people are saying that this Christine did not work on this lion.. So I can't see why people should Lie... And it says on his email that he works at Timbawati and that he is a dr. I can't see why it's a lie... I belive it 100%...
RE: Largest Living wild lions ? - Pantherinae - 09-01-2014
*This image is copyright of its original author
I think this is almero weighing The lion with The wildlife vet.
RE: Largest Living wild lions ? - chaos - 09-01-2014
(09-01-2014, 10:04 PM)'Pantherinae' Wrote:
*This image is copyright of its original author
I think this is almero weighing The lion with The wildlife vet.
Even if not the lion in question, that is one big looking lion!
RE: Largest Living wild lions ? - Pckts - 09-02-2014
(09-01-2014, 10:04 PM)'Pantherinae' Wrote:
*This image is copyright of its original author
I think this is almero weighing The lion with The wildlife vet.
Nice looking lion, but where was it captured, when etc. Which one is Almero, what was the weight?
Im curious to know this lions weight and body length, this one looks to be a 225kg (est) to me, also hard to tell from the angle though.
Christine is already quoted as being a employee of the reserve. That is fact, the image of the lion, the date taken, the emails shown all match up. If Almero works with the Timbavati reserve on Oct 2011 please show me where.
RE: Largest Living wild lions ? - Pckts - 09-02-2014
(08-28-2014, 03:12 AM)'Pckts' Wrote: Here is the question being specifically asked
*This image is copyright of its original author
Richard was not there for the alleged weighing
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
(note that I did'nt write the extra info, please don't take offense because it is not geared at you nor was it written by me)
Richard is a blogger apparently and has nothing to do with the weighing, christine is the true person to talk to since she was there for it.
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
The lion is specifically mentioned, the dates are specifically mentioned. That is what I am looking for. The dates, the reserve, the people involved.
Same as any other Tiger or Lion we use.
Just like Madla, Measurements shown, images shown, capture date and people involved. Emails backing it, etc.
RE: Largest Living wild lions ? - Pckts - 09-02-2014
I'm trying to find a contact info for Timabavati Leopard Reserve, but I am unseccessful so far, anybody else have any luck with it?
RE: Largest Living wild lions ? - Pantherinae - 09-02-2014
I don't Get it @Pckts. Almero is a proffsional and says he weighed a lion on 280 kg. Scaled down to 253 kg.
Either way if he says that it's a confusion, from The woman from The leopard project that she did not focus on The date writen, still when people are saying it's weighed and that she did not have something to do with The lion. Almero is The guy we should listening to. And he says he and a vet was there to comfirm The weight..
We can discuss, but to me it's not even a question that this is a weighed specimen.
RE: Largest Living wild lions ? - Pckts - 09-02-2014
Almero may be professional, but I have yet to see anything of him being with Timabavati. I haven't seen him with the lion in question, nor have I seen a single measurement for the lion.
If he was with Timbavati after Oct 24 2011 and they re captured the same lion in question, that would change things. But until we see anything mentioned that states that, I think its a estimate. Strictly because there is proof of it, not the other way around.
If somebody said "we caught and weighed a 300kg Tiger" wouldn't you want to see the actual measurements and know the people involved?
Even with the actual measurements of the world record tiger, most people do not accept or use it in the actual averages of tigers. If we are going to be that harsh on the Tiger, than we should be that harsh on the lion.
I have already seen lions that are around 250kg, I have no problem saying a lion can get up to that weight, but I would like to see measurements before I agree. Especially if the person who was originally there for the capture states it was a estimate. Thats all Im saying
RE: Largest Living wild lions ? - Pckts - 09-02-2014
I found some info for the Timbavati Nature Reserve, which almeros email has. Ill post whatever info I get if any. Hopefully they will clear up any questions I have. I also need to ask if they are one and the same with the Leopard project.
RE: Largest Living wild lions ? - Pantherinae - 09-02-2014
@Pckts
ofcourse You wanna see mesurements, but what I can't understand why You are sceptical when we have an email here where he says The lion was weighed. Why do You think he makes this up. And You also said I was way to sceptical not to belive those old hunting records on siberian tigers. And now I think You are a little to sceptical when it comes to this lion.
Ofcourse You are allowed, but when a vet says so I choose to belive him.
RE: Largest Living wild lions ? - Pckts - 09-02-2014
I don't accept that email any more than you dont accept the email from Christine.
I want to see actual proof, same as you. If the lion was indeed weighed, then I would like to see measurements. Also like I have stated quite a bit, scales don't go past 250kg usually. How did they get this weight?
Remember, the two largest cats weighed for a Lion and Tiger where not done on site, they had to use a Sugar scale and a train scale I believe.
I would think a lion that weighed 250kg would be noted that it bottomed out the scale, but I don't know enough about newer scale capabilities.
May be something to ask a expert, if anybody has access to one.
RE: Largest Living wild lions ? - Pantherinae - 09-02-2014
Yeah let's just leave this discussion, untill we stumble on something. We are not going anywhere anyway.
RE: Largest Living wild lions ? - GuateGojira - 09-02-2014
(08-31-2014, 07:21 PM)'Amnon242' Wrote: Disparity in prey availability is certainly a factor, but lions (probably due to their social life style) are not that much affected by this, the correlation is not so strong (when we talk about size). South african lions are on average heavier than east african, but the difference is like 190 kg vs 170 kg (I don´t know exact numbers).According with the study of Schaller (1972), the Serengeti have wooden areas and the plain ones. He states that those in the plains are the "smaller" ones as they depend to much of the variability of the seasons, specifically the great migration. In this case, the Serengeti is not like Pantherinae said, there are wooden parts and are drier parts, even then, prey density is higher than for example Etosha, which is a desert area, with low prey. Even then, food intake in the Serengeti is relative lower, apparently, than that of Etosha (10 kg against 14 kg). That is why I suggested, just that, a possible absence of correlation between prey density and size, but it seems that those are just exceptions, as the logic dictate that the largest prey density allow to grow the largest specimens, like those of the Okavango and the Crater, which have very huge availability of prey.
If you compare it to bengal tigers...sundarbans are around 120 kg (???)...or even less(?), while northern bengals are twice as heavy...
anyway...I see no dispute between us, basically we agree with each other...perhaps according to you the size variability among lions is somewhat bigger than according to me...
Guate?...
It seems a fact, according with Smuts et al. (1980), that the southern populations are heavier than those in East Africa, however the difference is not as large as we could think. Pckts believe that this is an effect of the sample size, and it may be true, but normally lions in the southern areas seems to reach higher figures than those of the northern areas.
In the case of the males, East African lions range between 145.4 - 235 kg, while those in Southern Africa range between 150 - 250 kg. The differences seems to be much less than we could think. Even the average figures (170 and 185 kg, respectively) are very close too. On the body size department, like I mentioned before, there is practically no difference, as the East African lions average 274 cm, while those in South Africa average 276 cm, they are practically of the same length. Only those in West African and India seems to be smaller, with average weights of about 160 kg in both cases. This raw comparison suggest that there is very little variation among the lion populations, like Pckts suggested, and this seems true even in body size, as the largest West African lions are as large as the East African ones.
On the other side, variation in tigers is huge and even absurd. The largest tigers are larger than the largest lions, but the smallest tigers are just like jaguars and large leopards. I will like to make a graphic (smaller female to largest male) in order to show a better comparison, but from the figures that I have, check this out:
Tigers overall: 75 ---------------------------------------- 300 kg
Sumatran: 75 ---------------148 kg
Amur: 110 ------------------254 kg
Bengal: 75 ---------------------------------------- 300 kg
Incredible as it is, the Bengal tigers is so variable like the entire species. I mean, the Nepal tigers average 221 kg, those of India range between 200 to 217 kg, but only those of Sundarbans average about 115 kg!
So, if we take all lion populations/subspecies, they average about 175 kg, while if we take all tiger populations/subspecies, they average about 165 kg, this is NOT quoted from Yamaguchi, but made by my own calculations and those of Peter too.
Among leopards, jaguars and pumas, there are similar results:
Jaguars: 30 --------------------------------------- 150 kg
Leopards: 20 --------------------- 90 kg
Pumas: 25 --------------------------------120 kg
There is a great variation between populations, and this caused that the old Taxonomists believed that there are several "subspecies" of these cats. Interesting as it is, genetic analysis, proved that although there is a little variations, ALL jaguar populations are of the same subspecies, which present an scenario of a single jaguar species in all America.
Finally, about lions, this is the graphic:
Southern lions: 81 ----------------------------------------------250 kg
Eastern lions: 90 ---------------------------------235 kg
West Africa: 80 -----------------------198 kg
Indian lions: 110 --------- 190 kg
Judge by yourselves. [img]images/smilies/wink.gif[/img]
RE: Largest Living wild lions ? - GuateGojira - 09-02-2014
(09-01-2014, 06:22 AM)'Pantherinae' Wrote: There is proof.. Almero said it, it's also said by others at The reserve that this woman You are reffering to was not on this project. Aswell as The Lion You had on The picture is a different lion. You can see that with ease, he's a 280 kg estimate, The one been weighed by Almero was 253 kg.It is worth to mention that Almero don't say 253 kg, but 250 kg, which is a realistic figure. The estimation of 253 kg came from the Anonymous email.