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Lions of Sabi Sands - Printable Version

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RE: Lions of Sabi Sands - KM600 - 10-26-2023

(10-26-2023, 08:59 PM)Ttimemarti Wrote: Just a question but am I wrong for calling the sabi sand black dam makes the southern black dam males and the 4 in the north the northern black dam males also with the kambula males northern and southern Kambulas even tho the southern Kambulas will probably get a coalition name since they have a third unrelated member
I do the same with the Southern and Northern BDMs but to differentiate the Kambula males, I just refer to the 2 older ones as KNP Kambula males and the other 4 as the breakaway. Does anyone know if the Southern BDMs are younger than the Northern BDMs or are they all around the same age.

RE: Lions of Sabi Sands - Tr1x24 - 10-26-2023

(10-26-2023, 09:43 PM)KM600 Wrote: Does anyone know if the Southern BDMs are younger than the Northern BDMs or are they all around the same age.

Few months younger.

RE: Lions of Sabi Sands - Mapokser - 10-26-2023

I honestly don't see a sucessful future for the Southern BDM, at least in that area.

They are clearly below average in strength and it shows, after more than a year in the north, facing low competition ( solo Mohawk and solo S8 ), they haven't accomplished anything, Ndhzengas are an even competition 2v2 but they shouldn't even be troubling the BDM, Ndhzengas have a huge territory already and it's 2v2, they probably only "pressure" BDM because they sense BDM aren't very strong, they don't try the same with Gijimas or PCM.

They failed to come even close of getting a pride despite plenty of females being around to be taken, and the only fertile female they got lost their cubs immediately and seemingly returned to the NK pride.

They couldn't properly oust Mohawk or his sons, didn't put any effort in ousting S8, and couldn't accomplish anything in Londolozi... They missed some key chances of eliminating Mohawk, S8 and the bigger Ndhzenga, but even when they caught some of them, they didn't do any meaningful damage. Now the Ndhzengas caught the stronger BDM and might have done significant damage.

RE: Lions of Sabi Sands - KM600 - 10-26-2023

(10-26-2023, 10:18 PM)Mapokser Wrote: I honestly don't see a sucessful future for the Southern BDM, at least in that area.

They are clearly below average in strength and it shows, after more than a year in the north, facing low competition ( solo Mohawk and solo S8 ), they haven't accomplish anything, Ndhzengas are an even competition 2v2 but they shouldn't even be troubling the BDM, Ndhzengas have a huge territory already and it's 2v2, they probably only "pressure" BDM because they sense BDM aren't very strong, they don't try the same with Gijimas and PCM.

They failed to come even close of getting a pride despite plenty of females being around to be taken, and the only fertile female they got lost their cubs immediately and seemingly returned to the NK pride.

They couldn't properly oust Mohawk or his sons, didn't put any effort in ousting S8, and couldn't accomplish anything in Londolozi... They missed some key chances of eliminating Mohawk, S8 and the bigger Ndhzenga, but even when they caught some of them, they didn't do any meaningful damage. Now the Ndhzengas caught the stronger BDM and might have done significant damage.
I agree with them most likely not being as successful as people had once imagined in the area, but not so much with them being weak males. While it’s true, they simply haven’t initiated a proper takeover on Mohawk and Nkuhumas, S8 and Talamati breakaways or both NWS and the Kambulas, they’ve never had a direct confrontation with any of them apart from the bigger NWS male and I agree they should have done meaningful damage. Their problem has always been them not focusing on a singular pride and their dominant male(s).

RE: Lions of Sabi Sands - Cath2020 - 10-26-2023

(10-26-2023, 10:18 PM)Mapokser Wrote: I honestly don't see a sucessful future for the Southern BDM, at least in that area.

They are clearly below average in strength and it shows, after more than a year in the north, facing low competition ( solo Mohawk and solo S8 ), they haven't accomplish anything, Ndhzengas are an even competition 2v2 but they shouldn't even be troubling the BDM, Ndhzengas have a huge territory already and it's 2v2, they probably only "pressure" BDM because they sense BDM aren't very strong, they don't try the same with Gijimas and PCM.

They failed to come even close of getting a pride despite plenty of females being around to be taken, and the only fertile female they got lost their cubs immediately and seemingly returned to the NK pride.

They couldn't properly oust Mohawk or his sons, didn't put any effort in ousting S8, and couldn't accomplish anything in Londolozi... They missed some key chances of eliminating Mohawk, S8 and the bigger Ndhzenga, but even when they caught some of them, they didn't do any meaningful damage. Now the Ndhzengas caught the stronger BDM and might have done significant damage.


That's a bit harsh, no?  There are only 2 and they are quite young.  I think that duos are almost not favored by largish prides anymore because the females might feel that they bring no stability or strength.... With the high prey density in the area, prides and coalitions tend to be large and that is what is preferred; however, the BDMs were seen mating with more than one lioness, but didn't the NK pride have young subs to protect?  Some of them could have already been lost in the shuffle when the BDMs started patrolling the area.  The lionesses could have just been wary and evasive.  This doesn't mean that they would have avoided them forever.  Slow takeovers take a long time.  Now that one male is missing and the other injured, this changes their future somewhat, if the other male is indeed permanently gone.  I hope not as I do like this pair, but the area is very competitive and unstable.  If this OE Male can recover and lay low for awhile, he might turn out fine.  He didn't have a bad leg already before he was attacked, unlike Ubusu.  If his partner is gone, well, he at least has several choice nomadic males he could bond with.  The problem could have been that he was caught alone, it seems.  So, the pair made the  mistake of not patrolling together and maybe both got caught alone, one being injured, the other running away/or dead.  Unless the official information comes out that they were together, we just don't know....

RE: Lions of Sabi Sands - Ttimemarti - 10-26-2023

Well it’s not that easy for them they might see the nkuhuma young males and think they are at a disadvantage and S8 is too far north most of the time and the nwaswitshaka males are too strong for them so what can they really do plus the mantimahle sons come into this area sometimes also too strong for them and something about the smaller black dam boy makes me think he’s sick or injured

RE: Lions of Sabi Sands - sik94 - 10-26-2023

(10-26-2023, 03:54 PM)KM600 Wrote: Apparently a BDM has been attacked while the two NSW and two lionesses were in the area but nobody actually witnessed the fight. BDMs been looking skinny recently so could instead be a Kambula YM but there’s not a lot of footage to go off. 


Those injuries look pretty serious, hopefully he doesn't develop some kind of internal infection from it that does him in. The next couple days could be pretty critical for him.

RE: Lions of Sabi Sands - KM600 - 10-27-2023

(10-26-2023, 11:43 PM)sik94 Wrote:
(10-26-2023, 03:54 PM)KM600 Wrote: Apparently a BDM has been attacked while the two NSW and two lionesses were in the area but nobody actually witnessed the fight. BDMs been looking skinny recently so could instead be a Kambula YM but there’s not a lot of footage to go off. 


Those injuries look pretty serious, hopefully he doesn't develop some kind of internal infection from it that does him in. The next couple days could be pretty critical for him.
Atleast he’s standing and going at his own pace, he’s a fighter for sure.

RE: Lions of Sabi Sands - Mapokser - 10-27-2023

@KM600 They did get proper confrontations with them multiple times.

At the very beginning of the year Mohawk was chasing both of them. Eventually they turned the tables on Mohawk and by February Mohawk was semi-nomadic and after a clash with BDM, Mohawk was seen with a slight limp. First missed opportunity.

Then as fully dominant males they both ran from S8, another opportunity missed. More recently they were able to chase S8 but it happened in BDM territory and they didn't put any pressure ob BDM or his pride.

They caught the bigger Ndhzenga alone and again barely did more damage to him than they did to Mohawk.

Many males would love to get such a good hand, surrounded by solo males and the one big coalition ( Ndhzengas ) lose 2 members very quickly basically making sure BDM don't have anyone outnumbering them. Then there's the NK pride, Tsalala female and Talamati pride that spent months in Londolozi ( and area they spent time in and tried to take over ), still, nothing, they couldn't take over any of the females.

Females under 2 males, under 1, or under no male at all, all available, but they couldn't get them... It's been basically a year since they became dominant and despite being in a very favourable area, they failed to produce results and it doesn't seen things will get better now that they seemingly lost their own fertile female and one of them is injured.

I wouldn't say they are weak, no healthy lion is, but compared to your average lion, they are definitely lacking in strength. Some other duo, even if not particularly strong, would be thriving under the same circumstances. BDM are lucky lions but haven't been able to capitalise on their luck.

@Cath2020 I wouldn't say they are young, they are in their prime, 6+ yo, and have been dominant for almost/around a year. PCM were like 4,5 when they attracted 2 NK females from the 2 Avocas and built a proper pride with them, BDM should have been able to easily oust Mohawk and take over the entire pride, as well as taking the Tsalala female and try to take over the Talamati nomads, or challenged S8 for the Breakaways.

But anyway I don't think the lesser-maned BDM is dead, Ndhzengas wouldn't have been able to kill one and injure the other so fast, what likely happened is that the bigger BDM was either caught alone or they both lost the clash and smaller-mane male abandoned his brother to be mauled which is usually what happens in some of these clashes.

RE: Lions of Sabi Sands - KM600 - 10-27-2023

(10-27-2023, 12:40 AM)Mapokser Wrote: @KM600 They did get proper confrontations with them multiple times.

At the very beginning of the year Mohawk was chasing both of them. Eventually they turned the tables on Mohawk and by February Mohawk was semi-nomadic and after a clash with BDM, Mohawk was seen with a slight limp. First missed opportunity.

Then as fully dominant males they both ran from S8, another opportunity missed. More recently they were able to chase S8 but it happened in BDM territory and they didn't put any pressure ob BDM or his pride.

They caught the bigger Ndhzenga alone and again barely did more damage to him than they did to Mohawk.

Many males would love to get such a good hand, surrounded by solo males and the one big coalition ( Ndhzengas ) lose 2 members very quickly basically making sure BDM don't have anyone outnumbering them. Then there's the NK pride, Tsalala female and Talamati pride that spent months in Londolozi ( and area they spent time in and tried to take over ), still, nothing, they couldn't take over any of the females.

Females under 2 males, under 1, or under no male at all, all available, but they couldn't get them... It's been basically a year since they became dominant and despite being in a very favourable area, they failed to produce results and it doesn't seen things will get better now that they seemingly lost their own fertile female and one of them is injured.

I wouldn't say they are weak, no healthy lion is, but compared to your average lion, they are definitely lacking in strength. Some other duo, even if not particularly strong, would be thriving under the same circumstances. BDM are lucky lions but haven't been able to capitalise on their luck.
I don’t remember hearing Mohawk chasing both of them at the start of the year, infact Mohawk run from S8 when he had the 4 Nkuhuma YMs with him so I doubt he chased both BDMs. Also no clash between Mohawk and the BDMs was witnessed, the guides stated they chased him for about 500m but they never caught him and he was seen within the next day or so limping, presumably from running. Mohawk wasn’t seen with a limp in February, this was in mid December. 

I’ve also never heard of S8 chasing the BDMs, the encounter I think you’re on about, he was challenging one of the BDMs on a kill made by the Talamati breakaways and after the brother appeared, S8 ran off. He later tried to challenge them again but the brothers were still together and S8 gave up once again. 

Them not taking over the females such as the Tsalala or Talamatis imo has nothing to do with their strength, for whatever reason they didn’t want to accept them especially with the Talamatis, Dark Mane Jr was around them start of the year and maybe this was the reason they didn’t accept the BDMs but we’ll never know.

RE: Lions of Sabi Sands - Duco Ndona - 10-27-2023

Its not like we have footage of the fight or a perfect record of what happened. The Nwas may not have been able to kill the other outright. But with a lucky swipe they may have done enough damage to cause him to expire not long later or otherwise cause enough damage to force the others to abandon him. Time will tell on that one, but most likely he will just disappear.
They are still young, so one of the reasons of why those guys aren't as successful may be a very poorly developed skill. They also still feel like scared cubs just thrown into nomadhood.  Not yet ready to risk confrontation, be it with other males or prides. These are living beings afteral, so strict timelines and age expectations are not law. 

Ultimately we can not predict these things. 
Not that long ago, the four Nwas were considered the kings of the reserve. Now there are down to two and they surrendered two of their prides to the much smaller Gijimas. Same with the other much hyped coalitions like the Avocas, the Birminghams and the Tumbellas. 
Meanwhile, the PC males seem to get prides thrown at them while barely having to throw a paw and have free range over western sector. Even though at one point they were considered the weakest of the coalitions of western sector. 

Its fun to try, as it demonstrates a good grasp on their behaviour when we do get it right. 
But ultimately. Lions plan, the savanna laughs.

As for the prides.
I think prides prefer small coalitions over larger ones. While the safety is a bonus, large coalitions steal a lot of food from them and there is a lot of competition and aggression among them. So they may end up being quite a pain for the lionesses which in turn would prefer to avoid them. Even if it leaves them vulnerable.
Solitary and nomadic lionesses may choose to avoid males altogether. Preferring to live more like leopards than lions until they can add some numbers.

RE: Lions of Sabi Sands - Tr1x24 - 10-27-2023

People underestimated 2 remaining Ndhzengas, that narrative started loong ago and only because 1 of them is "small" (which means absolutley nothing) and because they where once 4, so people think only 2 will have harsh time alone, although this 2 where only healthy ones, hard hitters and leaders of the coalition.

We obiviously cant know, but i wouldnt be suprised if 2 Ndhzengas are strongest duo in SS atm, I dont see why people call BDMs "weak" because of Ndhzengas.

As for why Ndhzengas dont mess wiith PCMs or Gijimas? Well i dont see those 2 messing with them neither. They also came from south, theres no reason for them to return back from the area they came from, males dont reovertake their former areas.

As for BDMs, problem is they dont have available pride to take, 3 Nkuhuma adults have subs and are protecting them and avoiding BDMs, until they came back to estrus.

They have available females under them, Chela and occasionaly 6th Kambula, even 2 young NK females where seen with them, not sure on the status of Tsalala, but she also prob was occasionaly with them, but she still didnt commit to nobody.

Mohawk and sons are non factor for BDMs, they occcasionaly hang in their territory, they also hang im S8 territory aswell, and i dont see S8 or people stressing about it. Recebtly they hang further east towards Kruger boundary and Mantimahles sons territory. They are nomads, they hold no power or challenge atm.

In the end, BDMs as long time nomads, are prob happy with territory which they establish, they tried to challenge Ndhzengas but it didnt work, they prob dont want to risk it all with pushing too hard in some direction. Pushing for S8 means basically nothing as he has 1 adult female under him, and she would also run away and protect subs. Unfortunetly there is little to no available females/prides in ther territory atm, they are kinda unlucky, until NK females come back to estrus.

And for this incident, 2 BDMs had buffalo kill in the area day before, on which they where feeding (reason why he looks so full), nobody knows how it went down, but it looks like 2 Ndhzengas and 2 Kambulas found them and attacked, they managed to catch him. 

Hope injuries are not too serious, if they are not, BDMs still have future here.

RE: Lions of Sabi Sands - KM600 - 10-27-2023

(10-27-2023, 03:54 AM)Tr1x24 Wrote: And for this incident, 2 BDMs had buffalo kill in the area day before, on which they where feeding (reason why he looks so full).
Yh this was the scenario I was imagining aswell but obviously didn’t say nothing cos I couldn’t confirm it, that buffalo meal might have just saved his life as it buys him some time to recover without being desperate for his next meal.

RE: Lions of Sabi Sands - Mapokser - 10-27-2023

@KM600 

Mohawk chased them when he was still territorial, it was shared here on WF, I think it was from MalaMala's January or February report.

Mohawk got a limp from running? Dubious to say the least, if that was the case how did he escape? But anyway, even if that was the case it doesn't change the fact that BDM still haven't ousted him.

S8 did chase both of them, it was also shared here, it was a report by a northern guide IIRC, and no it wasn't the instance you mentioned, it was months before that.

As for the females and them not taking over, a stronger coalition would track the females and chase after them until they get accepted, which is what most males do.

@Duco Ndona BDM are like 6,5yo or something, at their prime and went through a harsh nomadhood for a long time, they are now territorial for almost a year, the issue is definitely not young age inexperience.

I also think it's waaay too soon to think smaller BDM is likely dead or will disappear, the more likely scenario is that he wasn't involved or didn't take any serious damage.

RE: Lions of Sabi Sands - Mapokser - 10-27-2023

@Tr1x24 1/2 Ndhzenga is hardly "small", he is hella small, like legitimately one of the smallest lions ever seen. I wouldn't say size means nothing, but I'd agree that it usually doesn't mean much and it hardly is a problem for Ndhzengas.

And I didn't say BDM are weak because of Ndhzengas, I listed a lot of reasons for that, to put it simply, they were blessed with a good area, low competition, tons of opportunities and still couldn't accomplish anything, reason why I said they' re below average in strength.

Gijimas have messed with Ndhzengas already back when they were nomads and Ndhzengaz were 4... Now Gijimas attracted the 4 Talamatis that first mated with Ndhzengas and already have Styx and SP, so they don't have any motivation to push north, though they did visit Londolozi a few times.

PCM always patrol Londolozi, though not only they also have 3 prides like Gijimas but also a much more massive territory. Ndhzengas also have a big territory but push north, never south or west, maybe because like I said they can feel BDM arenaren't a big deal.

As for Ndhzengas being the strongest, that'd definitely surprise me if true. I never thought they were particularly strong due to running from 2 Bboys 2v4 ( as three 5yo males + one prime male ), and after that they never had the opportunity to show off much strength, though recently they have shown a lot, so yeah they are strong, but I still think PCM and Gijimas are the strongest and would put my money on them if they met Ndhzengas in Londolozi.

And as for females, lions don't usually get females for free, if every lion would wait for females to get back in estrus they'd almost never take any prides.

Even Nhenha and NK who weren't a big deal, having a weak bond, killed off the entire Othawa pride while trying to take over. If BDM were any stronger they'd be hunting down the Nkuhumas until they get accepted.

Mohawk and sons are no threat now, but are still with the pride that it "should" be BDM's as they defeated Mohawk who's now nomadic, still they lack the strength and drive to properly oust Mohawk and take over the pride... Plus give it a few months and suddenly Mohawk + sons won't be "non-factors" anymore.

There are/were lots of females: Tsalala, Nkuhumas, Talamatis, Talamati Breakaway. All within the north and central territories where BDM either control or hangout. Still they were unable to permanently get any of them. Only K6 who mates with any male available but always returns to her pride, and Chela who seemingly returned to her own pride as well after the cubs died.