behind the big cat's and bear's, who is the top predator?

behind the big cat's and bear's, who is the top predator? - Printable Version

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RE: behind the big cat's and bear's, who is the top predator? - Pckts - 11-30-2016

(11-30-2016, 12:58 AM)Ba Ba Lou Wrote: Pantherinae, the leopard apparently killing a hyena, my question was the attack a frontal attack, surprise attack or a sneak attack from behind ?

*This image is copyright of its original author

RE: behind the big cat's and bear's, who is the top predator? - Vinay - 11-30-2016

Leopard are the ultimate stealthy cats.

Wolves in the North and Dholes in the Jungles are top predators after Big cats and leopards.

*This image is copyright of its original author

RE: behind the big cat's and bear's, who is the top predator? - Polar - 04-19-2018

Haven't noticed this thread in quite a long time. In my personal opinion, the stories shown here, and based on obvious evolutionary factors, bears are not comparable to big cats when it comes to dealing with prey. Big cats are solely evolved for this much more so.

RE: behind the big cat's and bear's, who is the top predator? - Styx38 - 05-29-2019

Quote:

*This image is copyright of its original author

The Elk is a Rocky Mountain Elk.

It is roughly the same weight as Sambar Deer (Leopard prey):

Quote: Wrote: Wrote:Size and Weight of Rocky Mountain Elk
Bull: 700 pounds (315 kg)
Cow: 500 pounds (225 kg)

http://www.rmef.org/elkfacts

Sambar:

Quote: Wrote: Wrote:Haltenorth (1968) differentiated three species, with 18 subspecies. Adult males are larger than females and have characteristically 6 antler points and long legs. Their weights vary from 100-315 kg.

http://placentation.ucsd.edu/sdeer.html

Quote: Wrote: Wrote:The weight of adult Sambar is between 100 to 320 kg.

http://natureconservation.in/description...mbar-deer/

Leopards kill Sambar stags, and kill rates increase in areas without other serious competitors:

The Sambar Stag and adult female kills increased when Tigers were temporarily extirpated

*This image is copyright of its original author

Leopards killed Sambar Stags at a greater frequency in Yala, which has no lions or tigers:

*This image is copyright of its original author

It seems they can also make Sambar Stag kills from time to time in Tiger dominated areas:

*This image is copyright of its original author

RE: behind the big cat's and bear's, who is the top predator? - Styx38 - 05-29-2019

@~~brotherbear~~

Since we are using horse kills, wouldn't that also put smaller Snow Leopards at efficient killers.

Snow Leopards can take down adult horses:

Quote:As numbers of natural prey fall, the Snow Leopard is forced to feed on domestic livestock – sheep, goats, less often foals and young large-horned cattle. In exceptional cases it attacks large livestock: adult horses, cows, donkeys. The attacks on domestic animals often take place in winter. The basic food competitors of Snow Leopard are the wolf and lynx.

http://www.snowleopardnetwork.org/actionplans/uzbekistan.pdf

A Snow Leopard killed a Zaniskari horse in India

*This image is copyright of its original author

The breed's weight is 320-450 kg[source] compared to the Snow Leopard's typical 37–55 kg (male) and females 35–42 kg (female)[source]

Since the 50kg is considered on the bigger end, and somewhat rare, the Snow Leopard can take down horses up to ten times their own weight.

Common Leopards can take down adult horse too

Quote:An adult horse killed by a male leopard in Sarigol NP, northeastern Iran.
"On 20 October 2005, an adult horse was killed by a large male (according to camera trap picture).
Fresh tracks of an adult female accompanied by a young cub were regularly seen near the
kill, but we are not sure if they have fed on the kill. GUGGISBERG (1975) reported that in eastern
Africa, male and female leopards have been seen to feed on a kill with cubs. Also, on 4 February
2008, a ewe was found to be killed by a female with a juvenile cub. They fed on the kill for nearly
5 days."

http://wildlife.ir/Files/Leopard%20Sarig...%20ZME.PDF

Leopards have also killed Dromedary Camels ( 330-600 kg)

*This image is copyright of its original author

Last but not least, they can also take down adult Caspian Deer (230-320 kg according to Wikipedia, stags are 300-350 kg according to some Turkish hunting websites)

*This image is copyright of its original author

^ Looks like a stag going through the common antler growth cycle

They have also killed adult Okapi many times in Democratic Republic of Congo:

Quote: Wrote:

Leopards represent significant cause of death for adult okapi.

Link: http://library.sandiegozoo.org/factsheet.../okapi.htm but the original source(s) are here: (Spinage 1968) (Bodmer & Rabb 1992)

Okapi are large animals too

Quote: Wrote: Females are typically a little heavier at 495 to 770 lbs. (225 to 350 kilograms) while males weigh 440 to 660 lbs. (200 to 300 kg).

https://www.livescience.com/56233-okapi-facts.html

RE: behind the big cat's and bear's, who is the top predator? - Shadow - 05-29-2019

Interesting question, that which is top predator. One essential thing when making question like this would be, that in what way we define "top predator"? If we think about efficiency in hunting, then all felines are pretty much out of this contest . Of course if we think, that what predators are able to kill alone biggest possible prey animal, situation is another. Or should it be, which animal hunts regularly biggest prey animal compared to own size....

This is a bit difficult topic, because one could say, that big cats and bears aren´t top predators at all when considering it, how many times prey animal is able to flee. Apex predator definition doesn´t mean automatically, that animal would be most efficient predator on area :) So I think, that before giving suggestions it would be better to know more specifically, that how in this thread should we define "top predator" :)

If the success rate is definition here, then the African wild dog beats others clearly :) But of course that is only one definition. I find question in this topic too "open", so many possibilities how to define top predator. Big cat´s are in some definitions on top, in some other they are not even close to be on top.

RE: behind the big cat's and bear's, who is the top predator? - Pckts - 05-29-2019

Quote:Leopards killed Sambar Stags at a greater frequency in Yala, which has no lions or tigers:

Incorrect, only 4 Sambar appeared in the entire study and again the highest number of kills occurred from Chital, like they do anywhere else.
That's 4 out of 44 kills and not to mention they could of all been done by one Leopard who specializes in Sambar Kills, they could of been scavenged or of course Killed by the Leopard, but either way it's again a very minimal number.

*This image is copyright of its original author

"In RNP 86.4% of scat samples (N = 214) contained hair from medium to large mammal prey (axis deer, water buffalo, wild boar and sambar) consistent with previous observations here (Amerasinghe et al. 1990; Amerasinghe & Ekanayake 1992). Leopards tend to prefer prey between 10–40 kg with the strongest preference for animals 23–25 kg (Hayward et al. 2006). Young axis deer fit this size (Table 1) but overall axis deer are taken in proportion to their availability in RNP. Conversely sambar, the largest deer available here, seem to be selected by leopards. Seidensticker (1976) found leopards selecting for smaller age/sex classes of sambar in Royal Chitwan National Park, Nepal, however in RNP 75% (N = 4) of sambar carcasses detected were of adult males (215 kg, Santiapillai et al. 1981). Despite potential bias in carcass detection toward larger age/sex classes and a small sample size''

" particularly that carnivore population density appears determined by prey availability, not competition with dominant inter-specifics."

Quote:Leopards kill Sambar stags, and kill rates increase in areas without other serious competitors:

The Sambar Stag and adult female kills increased when Tigers were temporarily extirpated

" From the present study it was

understood that, when there was a large number of
tigers (12–16) in the study area (1988–1990), leopard was dependent on lesser bodied prey species
and occupied broader diet niche breadth than tiger
(Sankar & Johnsingh 2002). But after the extermination of tigers, diet of leopard completely shifted to
large bodied ungulates (Mondal et al. 2011). After
the re-introduction of tiger in the study area, both
the predators utilized the prey species in a similar
manner and showed similar preference towards large
ungulates. The dietary overlap between leopard and
tiger was also increased from 54% (1988–1990) to
94% (present study). There was a noticeable difference observed in the selection of sex and age class of
prey species by these two predators, as leopard largely
hunted fawns and females of large ungulates, while
tiger largely hunted adult males, as observed by kill
records (Figure 8). At present, there are only six reintroduced tigers in Sariska TR. With the increase in
the number of re-introduced tigers a clearer picture
of prey utilization and dietary interaction between
these two top predators in the study area is expected"

*This image is copyright of its original author

While yes, Sambar numbers did go Up in Leopard prey between 2 studies that were 18 years apart, they continued to go up after the reintroduction of Tigers and not only did they go up but Chital numbers went down after the reintroduction. Also something to note is that not only did Leopard see an increase but so did the Tiger, both jumped up almost the same % between the 1990 study and the 2009 study.
Which I'm sure has more to do with an increase in prey biomass especially in the species where we see the significant jump.
Also note that 1990 study where some how Tigers take Chital more often than Leopards and Leopards took Sambar more often than Tigers, that alone should be a red flag that the two studies are have very different conclusions.

RE: behind the big cat's and bear's, who is the top predator? - Styx38 - 05-30-2019

@Pckts

My point was to show that leopards can kill just as big prey as cougars.

Edit:

I just reread this:

Quote:In RNP 86.4% of scat samples (N = 214) contained hair from medium to large mammal prey (axis deer, water buffalo, wild boar and sambar) consistent with previous observations here (Amerasinghe et al. 1990; Amerasinghe & Ekanayake 1992). Leopards tend to prefer prey between 10–40 kg with the strongest preference for animals 23–25 kg (Hayward et al. 2006). Young axis deer fit this size (Table 1) but overall axis deer are taken in proportion to their availability in RNP. Conversely sambar, the largest deer available here, seem to be selected by leopards. Seidensticker (1976) found leopards selecting for smaller age/sex classes of sambar in Royal Chitwan National Park, Nepal, however in RNP 75% (N = 4) of sambar carcasses detected were of adult males (215 kg, Santiapillai et al. 1981).

Ruhana National Park or RNP is in Sri Lanka (no Tigers). That is why Leopards could more frequently kill Sambar Stags

On the other hand, Leopards practically won't touch such large animals in Tiger habitat (Royal Chitwan national Park), as stated by Seidensticker.

So you actually proved my point.

Anyway, can we just form a truce over this.

RE: behind the big cat's and bear's, who is the top predator? - Pckts - 05-30-2019

Quote:Ruhana National Park or RNP is in Sri Lanka (no Tigers). That is why Leopards could more frequently kill Sambar Stags

On the other hand, Leopards practically won't touch such large animals in Tiger habitat, as stated by Seidensticker.

So you actually proved my point.

Once again, only 4 out of 44 kill sites contained Sambar and yes, 3 were males and one was a sub adult.
This is a minimal number no different than what is seen elsewhere.
"Despite potential bias in carcass detection toward larger age/sex classes and a small sample size''

And of course I've already posted Sambar Kills, Male and Female in Tiger dominated territories so we know Seidensticker was wrong in that assessment. On top of kills larger than Sambar Stags in Lion dominated territories.

Sambar Stag Killed in Ranthambore

Sambar Stag killed in Nagzira Tiger Reserve

Try to find any photo or video documentation of Sri Lankan Leopards preying on Sambar, stags or not and you'll have extreme difficulty.

"The preferred and actual weight range of leopard prey throughout its distribution extends from 10 to 40kg with anoptimal weight of 23kg. This is close to the preferred weightdetermined in Mudumalai, India (Ramakrishnan
et al
.,1999), Ruhuna, Sri Lanka (Santiapillai
et al
., 1982), Seren-geti (Schaller, 1972), Kruger (Bailey, 1993), the Kalahari(Bothma, 1997) and in the Ituri Forest (Hart
et al
., 1996).The overall ratio of leopard to optimal prey body mass(based on 0.75
Â
mean adult female mass) is 1:0.79, which lends support to the prediction of Grifﬁths (1975) that vertebrate predators in prey-rich environments would be energy maximizers and is very similar to that found forleopards in Nagarahole, India (Karanth & Sunquist, 1995)."

Quote:Anyway, can we just form a truce over this.

We've been specifically discussing this and you posted the same thing we've been discussing there, here. I felt it right to respond.

RE: behind the big cat's and bear's, who is the top predator? - Styx38 - 05-30-2019

@Pckts

The point is Leopards in areas without significant competitors or temporarily out of competitors had a higher frequency of adult Sambar kills vs juveniles/subadults.

I pointed this out in the Persian Leopard thread:

Pench Tiger Reserve (6.4% juvenile/subadult kills vs. 1.8% adult kill); Sariska Tiger Reserve( 15% and 31% adult kills vs 11% subadult kills); Yala National Park ( 3 adults vs 1 juvenile/subadult)

In the rest of the Indian studies, the Sambar occurrence in leopard diet/kills is either low or juveniles.

Anyway, I acknowledged that Leopards will make these large kills at times.

Quote:It seems they can also make Sambar Stag kills from time to time in Tiger dominated areas:

I was addressing previous claims on this thread supporting the Cougar's killing ability:

(06-06-2015, 10:50 PM)faess Wrote: So what constitutes theleopard being a better predator? Bigger prey? better kill rate? killing other bigger predators? Because can make a case for the mountain lion on all those accounts

GuateGojira Wrote:The case of the leopard is also weird and we will need more evidence. Health state of the eland and true age and size are very relevant here. Normally, about 200 kg seems the normal limit for a large leopard in any territory.

I think that the most extreme case of one-to-one predation case are those of the puma and elk bull. There is video evidence of 60-90 kg pumas killing 300-400 kg male elks (if not slightly heavier).

RE: behind the big cat's and bear's, who is the top predator? - Styx38 - 06-02-2019

Hey @Pckts

Remember this source you posted:

*This image is copyright of its original author

Well, I did my research. Guess what?

There are no serious predators in John Nash Nature Reserve

Quote:The most common game in the John Nash Nature Reserve are blesbok (Damaliscus dorcas (Harper)) and impala (Aepyceros melampus (Lichtenstein)), although a variety of other species are also found (Table1). Brown hyaenas (Hyaena brunnea (Thunberg)), black-backed jackals (Canis mesomelas (Schreber)) and large populations of Cape Vultures (Gypscoprotheres (Forster)) are also present,

From same source: Leopard (Panthera pardus Linneaus) cave caching related to anti-theft behaviour in the John Nash Nature Reserve, South Africa by Darryl J. de Ruiter and Lee R. Berger

There is no Lion, Tiger or Spotted Hyena, so a leopard can make 300+ kg kills more often.

In Krugersdorp Nature Reserve, the lions are confined to a certain zone.

Oh and here are some other scientists who agree about the Savanna Leopard ecology:

Quote:In the absence of larger predators P. pardus may prey on slightly larger prey such as greater kudu (Karanth and Sunquist 1995; Stein 2008).

source: Stein AB. , Hayssen V. 2013 Panthera pardus (Carnivora: Felidae). Mamm. Species 45, 30–48.

Quote: In the absence of tiger, however, leopard consumed larger prey [50,70], indicating prey size of leopard is affected by tiger presence. In Africa, leopard regularly killed larger ungulate species, including adult common eland (Taurotragus oryx) and greater kudu (Tragelaphus strepsicerso), in the absence of larger carnivores [1,76], Similarly, cougar was found to expand its dietary niche and prey on larger ungulates in the absence of competing large carnivores [94].

An adaptable but threatened big cat: density, diet and prey selection of the Indochinese leopard (Panthera pardus delacouri) in eastern Cambodia (Rostro-García et. al)

Do you see that leopards can make more impressive kills where no serious competitor can usurp the kill, just like the mountain lion in certain cases? The only difference is that cougars are easier to document than leopards, since most leopards are documented in predator-heavy areas.

RE: behind the big cat's and bear's, who is the top predator? - Pckts - 06-03-2019

Quote:Do you see that leopards can make more impressive kills where no serious competitor can usurp the kill, just like the mountain lion in certain cases? The only difference is that cougars are easier to document than leopards, since most leopards are documented in predator-heavy areas.

Again, not correct.

*This image is copyright of its original author

Kudu Killed by a Leopard in the Sabi Sands

*This image is copyright of its original author

Kudu Killed by Female in DumaTau

*This image is copyright of its original author

Bull Kudu killed near Kruger
https://magazine.africageographic.com/weekly/issue-206/theres-a-leopard-in-my-garden/

*This image is copyright of its original author

Leopard eating a Kudu in Botswana

As you can see, Lion Dominated, Tiger Dominated, it doesn't matter, the Leopard is making just as large of Kills regardless.

RE: behind the big cat's and bear's, who is the top predator? - Styx38 - 06-04-2019

@Pckts

Pckts Wrote:As you can see, Lion Dominated, Tiger Dominated, it doesn't matter, the Leopard is making just as large of Kills regardless

^Go email this statement to the actual experts.

Was the Kudu bull actually killed by the leopard?

Anyway, the leopard made the kill in Hoedspruit Wildlife Estate, which is in low carnivore density areas

Quote:Wildlife numbers are monitored as well as the impact of people living in the estate. There are a number of predators that come and go on the estate including leopard and wild dog. The odd lion has been spotted on the estate but these animals tend to be low in numbers and keep to themselves.

http://www.century21wildlife.co.za/c/hoedspruit-wildlife-estate/353

For the Kudu cow kills, that is considered the biggest animal to kill in competitor dominated areas.

Quote:Not only is the biggest kill that you'll see a leopard makes, also the biggest leopard you probably see

on this video:

As you can see, the biggest kills they will make are Kudu cows. Anything bigger will be too much expenditure of energy, with competitors taking away everything. Thus, low frequency of big kills.

RE: behind the big cat's and bear's, who is the top predator? - Shadow - 06-04-2019

For me it looks like, that @~~Styx38~~ quoted studies in quite ok way. So I think, that impossible to totally ignore what zoologists and biologists say. Of course photos are photos, but for instance that bull kudu related to this article https://magazine.africageographic.com/weekly/issue-206/theres-a-leopard-in-my-garden/ was killed in area, which is fenced and no lions there. Or did I understand wrong?

What comes to this quote:
"In the absence of
tiger, however, leopard consumed larger prey [50,70], indicating prey size of leopard is affected by tiger
presence. In Africa, leopard regularly killed larger ungulate species, including adult common eland
(Taurotragus oryx) and greater kudu (Tragelaphus strepsicerso), in the absence of larger carnivores [1,76],
demonstrating the ability of leopard to expand its dietary niche in the absence of larger competitors."

For me relevant thing is part "leopard regularly killed". That can´t be denied with 1-2 photos, when trying to dispute result of scientific study, which doesn´t say that leopard wouldn´t kill at all big prey in presence of bigger predators. Regularly indicates naturally, that more often when no bigger predators.

Source was this: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/323010178_An_adaptable_but_threatened_big_cat_density_diet_and_prey_selection_of_the_Indochinese_leopard_Panthera_pardus_delacouri_in_eastern_Cambodia

I haven´t looked too closely now, but maybe here is situation, where both have good points to consider and not the best place to maintain purely "yes-no" discussion.

Actually I have to admit, that I am not quite sure, about what here is now disagreement in the first place :)

RE: behind the big cat's and bear's, who is the top predator? - Pckts - 06-04-2019

Quote:^Go email this statement to the actual experts.

Which experts exactly?
Most have found or confirmed the killings of the Animals listed.

Quote:Anyway, the leopard made the kill in Hoedspruit Wildlife Estate, which is in low carnivore density areas

The area is fenced off, the Leopards come and go a long with other predators, none of which are permanent residents and all of which are S. African who are very familiar with Lions.

Quote:For the Kudu cow kills, that is considered the biggest animal to kill in competitor dominated areas.

Based off of what exactly?

"A small female whose contribution to the leopard populations of Londolozi and the surrounding areas is as enduring as her will to survive. Independent from 10 months of age, she has come full circle and mastered the environment which is now her territory. Her mastery extends from survival to territorial defence to hunting. So efficient is her hunting ability that she was recently able to bring down two Kudu bulls in rapid succession."

https://blog.londolozi.com/2010/09/20/maxabeni-brothers-chased-off-kudu-kill/

*This image is copyright of its original author

Leopard killing a Bull Kudu in the Sabi Sands
All areas shown are Lion or Tiger dominated, yet Wildebeest, Kudu, Zebra, Herdebeest, Sambar, Nilgali are all on the menu.
Sometimes a Wildebeest can be larger than a Kudu, like I've said, all of these animals come in many different sizes.
Not all are the maximum weights listed on Wiki, in fact, 90% of them are much smaller with all kinds of different scars or injuries that can occur in the wild, age isn't determined nor can they determine general health from a scat or kill site.

Now if we were to flip this and I said, find me images of Leopards killing Sambar in Sri Lanka, can you?

@Shadow

Quote:For me relevant thing is part "leopard regularly killed". That can´t be denied with 1-2 photos, when trying to dispute result of scientific study, which doesn´t say that leopard wouldn´t kill at all big prey in presence of bigger predators. Regularly indicates naturally, that more often when no bigger predators.

There is no "regularly killed" there was only 4 out of 44 kills that were Sambar *3 of which were male and 1 was a sub adult*
Percentage of Kills consisting of large ungulate kills still the same as anywhere else and Sri Lanka like everywhere else showed Leopards preferred prey with in the 15-40kg range most often. And like everywhere else, the highest prey biomass of small/midsize ungulates *chital* contributes the most to Leopard predations in Sri Lanka and India.

Quote:Actually I have to admit, that I am not quite sure, about what here is now disagreement in the first place :)

I'm right there with you.
It has twisted and turned all over the place, this new one is based off of Leopards not killing large prey in Lion or Tiger dominated areas I think?
But of course, it doesn't matter if Lions or Tigers are there, if the prey biomass supports it, Leopards make the same sized kills and in areas where they have access to more prey biomass their numbers grow and that is regardless of Lion numbers as long as the prey supply is there.