(01-31-2023, 03:38 AM)SMK350 Wrote: @Duco Ndona Can you cite a source for that definition of territorial male? Ever article I looked up has “dominating a pride” as a criteria of being a territorial male. There’s a difference between showing territorial behaviors and being a territorial male.

Subadults can roar and scent mark too. Lions in zoos and sanctuaries roar ever night. The BDMs have entered the north as “challengers” but unless they actually secure a pride they are still, according to the scientific definition of lions, nomads. Same with the Torchwood and BirminghamMale. I heard recently killed subadults (born 2021) from the Birmingham pride. I think they’re showing great interest in Ngala and the prides there but so far they haven’t sealed the deal and taken over anything. 

Mohawk is avoiding confrontation with BDMs but I think it speaks volumes to his character that he’s still here. Every time he roars he’s putting himself in mortal danger. Did we just not see what happened to Nhenha? Let’s give the boy some credit. Many lions after loosing their brothers and having to deal with two huge males in their territory would have fled long ago. And I know that day may come soon, but it isn’t today.

(01-31-2023, 03:20 PM)Duco Ndona Wrote:

(01-31-2023, 03:38 AM)SMK350 Wrote: @Duco Ndona Can you cite a source for that definition of territorial male? Ever article I looked up has “dominating a pride” as a criteria of being a territorial male. There’s a difference between showing territorial behaviors and being a territorial male.

Subadults can roar and scent mark too. Lions in zoos and sanctuaries roar ever night. The BDMs have entered the north as “challengers” but unless they actually secure a pride they are still, according to the scientific definition of lions, nomads. Same with the Torchwood and BirminghamMale. I heard recently killed subadults (born 2021) from the Birmingham pride. I think they’re showing great interest in Ngala and the prides there but so far they haven’t sealed the deal and taken over anything. 

Mohawk is avoiding confrontation with BDMs but I think it speaks volumes to his character that he’s still here. Every time he roars he’s putting himself in mortal danger. Did we just not see what happened to Nhenha? Let’s give the boy some credit. Many lions after loosing their brothers and having to deal with two huge males in their territory would have fled long ago. And I know that day may come soon, but it isn’t today.

Its just a observation. One problem with scientific definitions is typically that they try to come up with a overaching general theory of animal behavoir, neatly categorizing animal behavoirs in specific classes or categories. 
While in reality, these are very complex animals that just do as they please and can show behavoir in between these groups. 

Skorro and the Birminghams for example. are non territorial males dominating a pride. The PCmales also staked out northern Singita first and then worked on luring Nkuhuma lionesses towards them and taking over the Mhangeni. They even had a clash with Nym and Sym, which also were doing the same in singita back then. The Avocas took over large areas of Birmingham territory. Without making much gains if it comes to prides and the Nharu males were seen scentmarking on Nwas territory, just to see if they could. 

While it is true that male lions will eventually vacate a teritory if there is no prospect of any future mating opportunities. The mere prospect of mating is enough for them to lay claim to a piece of land. The whole must dominate a pride criteria should therefor not be seen as a checkbox before deeming a male lion territorial. Their actual behavoir is much to complex for that.

(02-01-2023, 08:14 AM)sik94 Wrote: Males can be territorial for months before taking over a pride. The pride isn't just gonna give in, a new coalition could dethrone a coalition and take that territory at which point they are territorial in my book. They may not be pride males at this point but if they are holding a territory and defending it, they are territorial. Sometimes both of these happen simultaneously, like the PCs case for example.

(02-01-2023, 11:05 AM)Xiku_kutsu Wrote:

(02-01-2023, 08:14 AM)sik94 Wrote: Males can be territorial for months before taking over a pride. The pride isn't just gonna give in, a new coalition could dethrone a coalition and take that territory at which point they are territorial in my book. They may not be pride males at this point but if they are holding a territory and defending it, they are territorial. Sometimes both of these happen simultaneously, like the PCs case for example.

I agree. And just to add, it's not just your book, because according to most articles, territoriality is generally defined as " “the defense of an area,” wherein the area being defended is known as the “territory.” " The definition is made general/open to interpretation on purpose so it can act as a building block to create more specific terms for different animals, like how you said "pride male", for a territorial male that has secured a pride.

I think saying a male cannot be territorial without securing a pride first is mixing up one of the functions of a territory, which is acquiring mates, as a criteria to being considered territorial. The criteria is just defending an area. Lions typically become territorial and secure a pride at the same time because they typically form their territories to encompass a pride's territories. But acquiring mates can come after becoming territorial in some cases.

(02-01-2023, 08:07 PM)SMK350 Wrote: This is definitely an issue because prime males would typically seek out females not stay in one area for over a year without a pride. There are adult females with the Avocas who have been mating for over a year so there was no reason to let them slip through their hands. Just today I saw that the 4 Black Dams are "hot on the trail" of the Avoca pride. That's why they are dominant males and Mongawanes are, as of now, just bachelor males. The 4 Black Dams are not the same status as the Mongawanes.

(02-01-2023, 08:07 PM)SMK350 Wrote: Males can act territorial but they are not considered dominant males until they secure a pride. All males that reach sexual maturity will show dominance behaviors. Roaring and scent marking doesn't make one a dominant male

(02-01-2023, 08:07 PM)SMK350 Wrote:

(02-01-2023, 11:05 AM)Xiku_kutsu Wrote:

(02-01-2023, 08:14 AM)sik94 Wrote: Males can be territorial for months before taking over a pride. The pride isn't just gonna give in, a new coalition could dethrone a coalition and take that territory at which point they are territorial in my book. They may not be pride males at this point but if they are holding a territory and defending it, they are territorial. Sometimes both of these happen simultaneously, like the PCs case for example.

I agree. And just to add, it's not just your book, because according to most articles, territoriality is generally defined as " “the defense of an area,” wherein the area being defended is known as the “territory.” " The definition is made general/open to interpretation on purpose so it can act as a building block to create more specific terms for different animals, like how you said "pride male", for a territorial male that has secured a pride.

I think saying a male cannot be territorial without securing a pride first is mixing up one of the functions of a territory, which is acquiring mates, as a criteria to being considered territorial. The criteria is just defending an area. Lions typically become territorial and secure a pride at the same time because they typically form their territories to encompass a pride's territories. But acquiring mates can come after becoming territorial in some cases.

I guess we are getting terms mixed up here. Males can act territorial but they are not considered dominant males until they secure a pride. All males that reach sexual maturity will show dominance behaviors. Roaring and scent marking doesn't make one a dominant male anymore than the Talamati males are dominant even though they scent mark. I used the example of zoo animals displaying dominance behavior because it's really important to realize that these behaviors are instinctual in all lions. One of the most critical functions of a male lion is to protect the territory of PRIDES. Conquering empty territories is not a thing. It's definitely some kind of arrested developed if males don't have a strong interest in claiming a pride to the point that they will abandon an empty territory to actually go somewhere were there are females.

"As I said, Mongawane males are territorial around Shindzela for over a year now, they are roaring, scent marking and defending their territory, without having a full pride yet, because pride in the area, like Avocas, moved out and avoid them because they have cubs/subs." 

This is definitely an issue because prime males would typically seek out females not stay in one area for over a year without a pride. There are adult females with the Avocas who have been mating for over a year so there was no reason to let them slip through their hands. Just today I saw that the 4 Black Dams are "hot on the trail" of the Avoca pride. That's why they are dominant males and Mongawanes are, as of now, just bachelor males. The 4 Black Dams are not the same status as the Mongawanes.